105 réponses à ce sujet

[PapaCharlie9]

Given the ominous disappearance of Inquisition and "servant" elves at the conclusion of Trespasser, we know that battle lines are being drawn between the army of the Dread Wolf and basically everyone else.
 
So where does that leave elves as a playable race in DA4?
 
What would the back story be for such a player? There is no good choice: one would either have to be a traitor to the Dread Wolf's insurgency and hated by those elves that join with him, while at the same time, being even more oppressed as a second class citizen, under constant suspicion of treachery, by all other races. Or, one will be true to the Dread Wolf's insurgency and must role-play as a traitor and a spy while being embedded in the counter-insurgency (formerly known as the Inquisition).
 
The whole spy thing is set up by the final choice of the Inquisitor: the choice of retaining the Inquisition is supposed to make it easier for corruption and treachery to happen. Maybe that was planned from the beginning as a role for PC elves.
 
It might even be kind of cool to be able to role play a traitor.
 
What do you think? Would you play an elf if you had to choose between being constantly under suspicion unfairly, or, as it were, fairly? Is there a third option? One that isn't a huge lore-breaking hack?
 
Please let it not be: "You are an ancient elf, that like Solas, was asleep for 1000 years -- you awaken to find him up to his usual tricks and join the counter-insurgency just for spite."
 
EDIT: For reference, the Trespasser Epilogue reference about the disappearence of elves ...
 

Fen'Harel's Call to the Elven People
 
After the events at the Winter Palace, elves left the Inquisition under mysterious circumstances, as did elven servants across Thedas. None could say where they went, but those who believed the Inquisitor's story about Fen'Harel wondered just how large the Dread Wolf's forces were... and what the ancient elven rebel had planned.

EDIT 2: Corrected initial statement about which elves left to join Solas and toned down the majority/most assertions I made, which aren't really supported and certainly aren't widely agreed to.

[Wulfram]

I don't think a majority of elves side with the Dread Wolf

[PapaCharlie9]

I don't think a majority of elves side with the Dread Wolf

Because? That is pretty strongly hinted at in the conclusion to Trespasser.

 

There is precedent as well. The majority of mages and Templars were effectively enemies of the Inquisition. True, they weren't bent on genocide, but it's a suggestion of what might be ... ugh, come to think of it, that's sad. I don't think the PC mage and Templar tension was done very well, it was like it was glossed over completely in DAI.

[robertmarilyn]

The Dread Wolf didn't have a good reputation among elves in the past so I don't see why most elves would be joining him. The elves that do join him have to have been drinking some special koolade to think it's a good idea. I like playing humans but if I play an elf in D4, I won't have a hard time justifying NOT joining the Dread Wolf cult. 

[PapaCharlie9]

The elves that do join him have to have been drinking some special kool aid to think it's a good idea. I like playing humans but if I play an elf in D4, I won't have a hard time justifying NOT joining the Dread Wolf cult. 

Exactly. I think that follows.

 

I'm surprised though that there is disagreement about whether the majority of elves would join Solas or not. That's pretty well established, to my interpretation. Most of the elves, one way or the other, were oppressed. Solas offers a way to fight that oppression. Who would say no to that and why?

[Wulfram]

Because? That is pretty strongly hinted at in the conclusion to Trespasser.

Because I don't find it at all plausible. Neither Andrastean City Elves or Dalish Elves are likely to be inclined to side with Fen'Harel given his place in Dalish mythology. Nor do City Elves really have the united culture capable of mobilising on such a scale, and Dalish would be a stretch too given how recent stuff has emphasised the differences between clans.

Also, I don't think the conclusion of Trespasser suggests that sort of scale.

[QueenCrow]

Yes!  I'd love to play an elf in the next game, for the reasons you've already mentioned, PapaCharlie, and for the reasonable exceptions that other people will mention.  It seems as if playing because of the way DA:I ended, playing an elf in the next game would be the most tumultuous, and interesting, race to play - although I can see that playing a Qunari/Vashoth in the next game would be equally interesting in the event of a Tevinter v. Qun conflict in game.

[robertmarilyn]

Exactly. I think that follows.

 

I'm surprised though that there is disagreement about whether the majority of elves would join Solas or not. That's pretty well established, to my interpretation. Most of the elves, one way or the other, were oppressed. Solas offers a way to fight that oppression. Who would say no to that and why?

 

If I were an oppressed elf and had the means to escape that oppression (such as slavery), I'd escape it in another way than by joining the Dread Wolf cult. Joining the Dread Wolf would be like offering yourself to be the blood donor to a blood mage. I don't see the Dread Wolf as a good means of escape...don't jump from the pot into the fire. 

 

I want to add that I do think it will be interesting to play and elf in the next game but I don't see it as a stretch at all to play and elf who sides against Solas. 

[PapaCharlie9]

For reference, I added the Wiki text for the Epilogue to the OP:

 

Fen'Harel's Call to the Elven People

 

After the events at the Winter Palace, elves left the Inquisition under mysterious circumstances, as did elven servants across Thedas. None could say where they went, but those who believed the Inquisitor's story about Fen'Harel wondered just how large the Dread Wolf's forces were... and what the ancient elven rebel had planned.

[PapaCharlie9]

If I were an oppressed elf and had the means to escape that oppression (such as slavery), I'd escape it in another way than by joining the Dread Wolf cult. Joining the Dread Wolf would be like offering yourself to be the blood donor to a blood mage. I don't see the Dread Wolf as a good means of escape...don't jump from the pot into the fire. 

Okay, I'll just say one more thing for my side, then we'll have to agree to disagree: keep in mind what Solas's goal is. If things go to plan, Elvhen will be restored and elves will rule the land with magic. Put yourself in the shoes of an oppressed city elf, spit on and degraded by humans all your life, or a Dalish elf, futilely searching through the wilderness for everything that was lost. Solas offers to restore all of that and lift you up from the gutter to be first among all. That's a pretty powerful enchantment, even if the cost is genocide. But, genocide of people who tortured and raped you? How is that a hard decision to make?

[Wulfram]

Yeah, to me that says widespread but necessarily high proportionately.

Okay, I'll just say one more thing for my side, then we'll have to agree to disagree: keep in mind what Solas's goal is. If things go to plan, Elvhen will be restored and elves will rule the land with magic. Put yourself in the shoes of an oppressed city elf, spit on and degraded by humans all your life, or a Dalish elf, futilely searching through the wilderness for everything that was lost. Solas offers to restore all of that and lift you up from the gutter to be first among all. That's a pretty powerful enchantment, even if the cost is genocide. But, genocide of people who tortured and raped you? How is that a hard decision to make?

If things go to plan, the modern elves all die.

[PapaCharlie9]

Yeah, to me that says widespread but necessarily high proportionately.

Okay, but why? Give me a rationale I can believe. Everything in lore has been set up for elves to naturally want to support Solas's cause. What would persuade them not to? The goodness of their hearts? I'll need something better than wishful thinking.

[The Baconer]

Curiously enough, the Dalish aren't even mentioned at all in that epilogue quote. 

[PapaCharlie9]

Curiously enough, the Dalish aren't even mentioned at all in that epilogue quote. 

That's true. That may be an out -- but I'm skeptical. Maybe an argument can be made that the Dalish stick to their interpretation of the Dread Wolf being evil and so oppose him. But here I have to agree with Solas, the Dalish are pretty pathetic in the grand scheme of things. Even if they throw in entirely on the side of the counter-insurgency, that's not much help. And they still will be under constant suspicion of being spies.

[Wulfram]

Okay, but why? Give me a rationale I can believe. Everything in lore has been set up for elves to naturally want to support Solas's cause. What would persuade them not to? The goodness of their hearts? I'll need something better than wishful thinking.

"Hi! I'm Elvish Satan, help me kill you and everything you love!" is not a pitch that seems like it has universal appeal. Plus the practical issues of uniting a diverse and scattered people

edit: In the art for the slide there are people with Vallaslin, so I don't think the Dalish are exempt. Though it could be ancient elves.

[PapaCharlie9]

"Hi! I'm Elvish Satan, help me kill you and everything you love!" is not a pitch that seems like it has universal appeal.

Except that's not accurate, from the point of view of a city elf, right?

 

Best you could do is, "Hi! I'm what the Dalish call Elvish Satan, but I want to kill all the humans that spit on you and make you rulers of the world."

[Wulfram]

Except that's not accurate, from the point of view of a city elf, right?
 
Best you could do is, "Hi! I'm what the Dalish call Elvish Satan, but I want to kill all the humans that spit on you and make you rulers of the world."

From the point of view of a city elf he's a false evil god, even if he's not Satan. And he's still intending to kill all the modern elves.

[PsychoBlonde]

Exactly. I think that follows.

 

I'm surprised though that there is disagreement about whether the majority of elves would join Solas or not. That's pretty well established, to my interpretation. Most of the elves, one way or the other, were oppressed. Solas offers a way to fight that oppression. Who would say no to that and why?

 

It's going to come out that Solas' basic intentions are to destroy the world in order to bring back the days of the ancient elves.  MODERN elves are just disposable tools to him--they're cut off from the Fade.  The modern elves would wind up back as slaves of the ancient elves or worse.

The people who join Solas are going to do so out of hatred for humans, not any positive love for Solas.  And most of them will be useless--untrained, unskilled, uneducated.  Solas will find himself in command of an army of the worst dregs of Thedas--most of them as ready to turn and rend him or each other as they are willing to fight "the oppressors".

 

Solas doesn't really have any choice but to become the worst type of rabble-rousing demagogue imaginable.

[sandalisthemaker]

This would involve multiple main storylines depending on which race the player chooses.   The chances of that happening are pretty much zero. 

[PapaCharlie9]

It's going to come out that Solas' basic intentions are to destroy the world in order to bring back the days of the ancient elves.  MODERN elves are just disposable tools to him--they're cut off from the Fade.  The modern elves would wind up back as slaves of the ancient elves or worse.

The people who join Solas are going to do so out of hatred for humans, not any positive love for Solas.  And most of them will be useless--untrained, unskilled, uneducated.  Solas will find himself in command of an army of the worst dregs of Thedas--most of them as ready to turn and rend him or each other as they are willing to fight "the oppressors".

 

Solas doesn't really have any choice but to become the worst type of rabble-rousing demagogue imaginable.

 

We agree on the hatred for humans part. I don't know that they are all that unskilled ... Solas's agent in "The Masked Empire" wasn't all that unskilled.

 

But be that as it may, where does the idea that Solas wants to oppress modern elves come from? All the lore I experienced says the opposite, that he wants to SAVE THE PEOPLE. All of them, old and new, city and Dalish. The only ones he wants to oppose are his old enemies, the Evanuris. That is a tiny minority of the ancient elves.

[Wulfram]

Modern Elves aren't his people, he says that even during the main game. Until (and unless) the Inquisitor became his friend, Modern Elves weren't even people to Solas, he says that.

And he says "the return of my people means the end of yours". Also "would you give the life of every friend you have ever known?" to a Lavellan who wants to join him.

[Heimdall]

To be clear, the epilogue slide implies that are large number of elves across Thedas have gone to join him.  But it doesn't say "all" the elves in the Inquisition or "all" elven servants across Thedas left.  Not even "Most"

 

It's a bit of a leap to suggest that all city elves throughout Thedas are rooting for Fen'Harel.

[Ariella]

If I were an oppressed elf and had the means to escape that oppression (such as slavery), I'd escape it in another way than by joining the Dread Wolf cult. Joining the Dread Wolf would be like offering yourself to be the blood donor to a blood mage. I don't see the Dread Wolf as a good means of escape...don't jump from the pot into the fire.

You know, the elven mage Lysas says pretty much the same thing about siding with the magisters if you talk with him in Redcliffe.

[Ghost Gal]

God, I hope elves are a playable race for DA4. I'll play the **** out of them.

 

I think it has the potential for a very difficult moral choices with no easy answers.

 

If playing a human, of course you're against the Dread Wolf. You're not an elf, so why should you care what they lost? And you benefit from the current worldstate where humans are in charge of everything and elves are depowered servants. Why wouldn't you want to keep it that way?

 

As an elf, it's not quite so cut-and-dry. (Unless you want to roleplay an elf-hating "human with pointed ears" like Sera.) You're fully aware of what your people lost and how they suffer under humans. Here your people have a chance to reclaim everything they lost and escape human oppression, but at the cost of the world as we know it and the other races in it. On the one hand, it's a terrible thing to destroy the current world for other races just to benefit the elves. On the other hand, the other races have never been good to the elves (humans enslaved them, dwarves looked the other way or flat-out slaughtered them when humans enslaved them, and Qunari just want to enslave them to the Qun), so some bitter elves might ask, "Why should we owe them anything? They didn't care when our world was destroyed and took advantage of us when we were down, so why should we keep denying ourselves for people who just keep using and abusing us?"

 

Though I'm pretty sure the game is going to force us to take a stance against Fen'Harel, it still has some interesting roleplay potential. I think roleplaying a character who doesn't benefit from the world's status quo but who still sees enough good in it (despite experiencing the worst in it) to defend it is much more meaningful than someone who benefits from it and defends it to maintain their own privilege. As long as we get the option to occasionally express feeling torn, empathizing with Fen'Harel and his followers' feelings, wanting to still help elves in a different way after stopping Fen'Harel, etc., I'll be happy.

[Qun00]

Exactly. I think that follows.

I'm surprised though that there is disagreement about whether the majority of elves would join Solas or not. That's pretty well established, to my interpretation. Most of the elves, one way or the other, were oppressed. Solas offers a way to fight that oppression. Who would say no to that and why?

All he offers them is the sweet release of death.