105 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

Played an elf in DAI , so I already faced part of this.

The fact that my Inqui tried to improve life for elves a bit just for Solas to go mouhahah at the end and probably lied through his teeth to gather elves already sucked big time and felt personal.

 

Besides you learn no matter what they do the elves won't ever be like the ancient elves , it's not just their culture and empire which was lost , part of their very nature was changed along the way...

The Dalish will never find their lost immortality or rebuild an empire just like the ancient elves , they don't have the magic anymore, and they can't get it back.

 

But anyway as much as it would be interesting to play this in DA4 , like I said I already been there with the Inqui , and the whole thing felt more personal with a Dalish anyway.

City elves don't care all that much about elven Gods and such...they are just being used again.

It happened with Tevinter using them as slaves , it happened with the Qun etc...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I would be very surprised if they removed elves as a playable race because of the Solas plot. We'd presumably just play an elf who didn't join him.

Would it interest me? Not as much, anymore. Trespasser more or less killed my interest in RPing a Dalish elf. Although I'm not interested in playing A Tevinter human either. So maybe a city elf would be cool, or a pirate.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Given that playing as an elf will add significant weight to the decision about Solas' ultimate fate, I'd be very surprised if playing as an elf wouldn't be an option. I certainly would like to, since I tend to favour playing as elves in most RPGs.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Why would they join forces with a guy that wants to destroy them all because their not his true people, or even true elves in Solas's opinion. 

[PsychoBlonde]

We agree on the hatred for humans part. I don't know that they are all that unskilled ... Solas's agent in "The Masked Empire" wasn't all that unskilled.

 

But be that as it may, where does the idea that Solas wants to oppress modern elves come from? All the lore I experienced says the opposite, that he wants to SAVE THE PEOPLE. All of them, old and new, city and Dalish. The only ones he wants to oppose are his old enemies, the Evanuris. That is a tiny minority of the ancient elves.

 

Skilled agents (and Felessan was a MAGE, mind you) are always vastly in the minority.  Most elves are illiterate slum-dwellers with so few skills that even the Dalish don't want them.  Do you think that they're going to suddenly transform into James Bond?

 

Everyone who claims they want to "save the people" in reality wants to oppress them.  People are remarkably resistant to being "saved" and not particularly grateful afterwards.

 

Also, nowhere did Solas make the claim that the modern elves will be elevated to the status and abilities of the highest ancient elves.  In fact, given what has happened to those cured of Tranquility, they may just wind up being driven insane or consumed by demons or spirits that they have no means to combat.  Most OF the ancient elves were servants or slaves, so there were hefty divisions even back then.  There might be a few extra-powerful mages who might be able to become like the ancient elves were once the Veil is removed.  For the average footsoldier or camp assistant?  Hah.  They'll get promised a land of milk and honey and most of them will wind up dead or in chains or (best case) little better off than they were before.  The humans might abuse and denigrate them (and even then, not remotely all humans do this), but at least the humans don't expect the elves to love them for it.  What do you expect Solas' likely reaction will be when he, at great cost and personal sacrifice, removes the Veil at last and his loyal followers are horrified at the result and start complaining?  Do you think he's going to be all "well, all right, go your own way then, you don't owe me anything".  No, he's going to be pissed, start blaming the problems on the "disloyal" elves, and then the purges will start.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Why would they join forces with a guy that wants to destroy them all because their not his true people, or even true elves in Solas's opinion. 

 

They may not know Solas's full agenda.  He doesn't have the best track record for honesty, and he's perfectly willing to use people   Besides, there are probably elves out there whose circumstances are desperate enough that they might throw their lot in with Solas anyway.

 

But back to the OP: I would totally play another elf for DA4.  I love pain and hate joy

[robertmarilyn]

Okay, I'll just say one more thing for my side, then we'll have to agree to disagree: keep in mind what Solas's goal is. If things go to plan, Elvhen will be restored and elves will rule the land with magic. Put yourself in the shoes of an oppressed city elf, spit on and degraded by humans all your life, or a Dalish elf, futilely searching through the wilderness for everything that was lost. Solas offers to restore all of that and lift you up from the gutter to be first among all. That's a pretty powerful enchantment, even if the cost is genocide. But, genocide of people who tortured and raped you? How is that a hard decision to make?

 

This is an interesting discussion even though we do disagree. The thing is that today's people, elf, human, whatever, will be destroyed with Solas' plan. He knows that and the Dread Wolf was never someone that the elves looked up to in the past. It really is like they are going to join the devil to spite their oppressors and that is not going to work out well for them at all. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

They may not know Solas's full agenda.  He doesn't have the best track record for honesty, and he's perfectly willing to use people   Besides, there are probably elves out there whose circumstances are desperate enough that they might throw their lot in with Solas anyway.

 

That is true. Got to remember Solas is scheming trickster wolf-beast that lies to your throughout your interaction with him and won't even give you the decency of letting the dread wolf taking you before vanishing so he can kill everything you hold dear...

 

Jerk... 

 

Anyways, I still think that even the most desperate, but still sane of elves will have a problem with the whole murder everything on Thedas including themselves part of Solas's plan if he does bother to tell them about it. I mean, joining the Qun is one thing, but this just sounds insane. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

This is an interesting discussion even though we do disagree. The thing is that today's people, elf, human, whatever, will be destroyed with Solas' plan. He knows that and the Dread Wolf was never someone that the elves looked up to in the past. It really is like they are going to join the devil to spite their oppressors and that is not going to work out well for them at all. 

 

Plus, its not as if there's no alternatives or chances of social change. Briala has two different opportunities to become marquise of the Dales and in one them immediately starts implementing serious change for city elves.  

[myahele]

I can see most city elves join Fen'harel since they don't share the same stigma that the Dalish have of him. Though I think the majority of Dalish elves won't, but a small number will.

[IanPolaris]

I suspect that you will be allowed to play an Elf, presumably one that did not join the Dread Wolf's crusade.  That said, I am really, really getting ticked off at Bioware for sliming the Elves over and over and over here.  The obnoxious DAI retcons weren't enough, now it seems clear to me that Bioware is setting up the Elves to be victims of genocide in DA4.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I suspect that you will be allowed to play an Elf, presumably one that did not join the Dread Wolf's crusade.  That said, I am really, really getting ticked off at Bioware for sliming the Elves over and over and over here.  The obnoxious DAI retcons weren't enough, now it seems clear to me that Bioware is setting up the Elves to be victims of genocide in DA4.

 

Aren't they setting up everyone to be victims of genocide? 

[IanPolaris]

Aren't they setting up everyone to be victims of genocide? 

 

Only of Solas succeeds.  The problem is that if the vast majority of the elves join Solas' army (and that sure does seem to be the implication at the end of Trespasser), then it's only good sense to purge all elves from any position of importance or even just purge (exile, kill, whatever) elves on general principle just because of the security risk.  That's cold, but there it is.

 

What's more if the elves are seen as siding with a madman that wants to destroy the entire world as a race (and they will be), it's going to be almost impossible for everyone else NOT to slaughter all the elves.

[robertmarilyn]

 

Only of Solas succeeds.  The problem is that if the vast majority of the elves join Solas' army (and that sure does seem to be the implication at the end of Trespasser), then it's only good sense to purge all elves from any position of importance or even just purge (exile, kill, whatever) elves on general principle just because of the security risk.  That's cold, but there it is.

 

What's more if the elves are seen as siding with a madman that wants to destroy the entire world as a race (and they will be), it's going to be almost impossible for everyone else NOT to slaughter all the elves.

 

 

It'd be so wrong to slaughter ALL the elves because of what SOME of them do. I won't participate in that if I can help it. I would never think it's ok to wipe out a race for what some in the race do. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

Only of Solas succeeds.  The problem is that if the vast majority of the elves join Solas' army (and that sure does seem to be the implication at the end of Trespasser), then it's only good sense to purge all elves from any position of importance or even just purge (exile, kill, whatever) elves on general principle just because of the security risk.  That's cold, but there it is.

 

The epilogue is pretty vague and while it does say that elves left the Inquisition to hear the Dread Wolf's call, which for the record doesn't seem completely true since Leliana's agent Charter, an elf, doesn't follow them, and that elven servants across Thedas heard the call as well, that doesn't necessarily mean that a majority listened to it or that they'll even support his plan ultimately. It's still pretty up in the air to me. 

 

What's more if the elves are seen as siding with a madman that wants to destroy the entire world as a race (and they will be), it's going to be almost impossible for everyone else NOT to slaughter all the elves.

 

 

You'd think that would happen, but the epilogue doesn't mention elf purges occurring whatsoever. Perhaps we might see something like that in DA 4? That said, I can't believe that Bioware would utterly exterminate a fan beloved race. Maybe poke fun at them and their culture, but not remove them entirely. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

You'd think that would happen, but the epilogue doesn't mention elf purges occurring whatsoever. Perhaps we might see something like that in DA 4? That said, I can't believe that Bioware would utterly exterminate a fan beloved race. Maybe poke fun at them and their culture, but not remove them entirely. 

 

Agreed.  IMO, given some of the real life parallels, wiping out the elves in DA4 would...not go over well.  And BioWare's usually pretty good about avoiding obvious pitfalls like that.

[IanPolaris]

It'd be so wrong to slaughter ALL the elves because of what SOME of them do. I won't participate in that if I can help it. I would never think it's ok to wipe out a race for what some in the race do. 

 

Just like it's no OK to slaughter all mages in Kirkwall for what some of them did?  We've seen this film before.

[IanPolaris]

Agreed.  IMO, given some of the real life parallels, wiping out the elves in DA4 would...not go over well.  And BioWare's usually pretty good about avoiding obvious pitfalls like that.

 

I wouldn't be so sure.  While the epilogue doesn't explicitly mention Elf purges, I don't see how this would be avoided once it becomes clear that the followers of a mad-man that wants to destroy the world is virtually all elves along with his agents, spies, ect.  This sort of thing will be noticed soon, and people aren't dumb.  I think the elves have  been mistreated both in the game and by Bioware, but if I were the Inquisitor (or Noble) given this information, I'D purge (as in fire) all elves and elven followers myself.  Is that racial profiling?  Yes.  It is justifiable as a rational security measure...oh heck yes.  Now marry that with existing racism and history in Thedas, and I don't see how you don't avoid an Elven genocide.

 

Thanks a lot Solas.

 

Edit PS:  As for Bioware being pretty good about avoiding pitfalls, does ME-3 and "Artistic Integrity" ring any bells.  I have no confidence that Bioware is able or willing to even spot such pitfalls let alone admit mistakes when they fall into one.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Just like it's no OK to slaughter all mages in Kirkwall for what some of them did?  We've seen this film before.

 

BioWare doesn't stop its players from doing horrible things.  But usually, the horrible thing is one of several options.  At no point in any of the DA games were you obligated to wipe out a bunch of people.

[Ariella]

Agreed.  IMO, given some of the real life parallels, wiping out the elves in DA4 would...not go over well.  And BioWare's usually pretty good about avoiding obvious pitfalls like that.

They've gotten heavy handed sometimes (The Tranquil Solution, and Sebastian later referring to it as not being the holocaust Anders had thought), but I don't think they will.

I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't pograms or other attacks, but I don't think it'll whole sale slaughter.

However, the irony of this is what Solas tells a Lavellen IQ about how the world would react to the idea that elven magic had been used to attack the heart of human faith... Like he cared.

Modifié par Ariella, 30 octobre 2015 - 08:17 .

[IanPolaris]

BioWare doesn't stop its players from doing horrible things.  But usually, the horrible thing is one of several options.  At no point in any of the DA games were you obligated to wipe out a bunch of people.

 

You can't stop a madwoman from trying to slaughter all of Kirkwall's mages (and she mostly succeeds no matter what you do) for the act of a mage that wasn't even under her authority (Warden Anders).  Given that and given ME-3, why should I expect anything different now?

[robertmarilyn]

Just like it's no OK to slaughter all mages in Kirkwall for what some of them did?  We've seen this film before.

 

Well yeah...I was against that too!    

[IanPolaris]

However, the irony of this is what Solas tells a Lavellen IQ about how the world would react to the idea that elven magic had been used to attack the heart of human faith... Like he cared.

 

IMHO Irony is exactly the right word.  Do I think he cares?  By this time (esp if Lavellen is a LI), yes I do.  However, it shows (along with a host of other things) a shocking lack of self-reflection and understanding of the consequences of his actions.    That too is ironic since he's quick to criticize others for this very fault, especially the Grey Wardens.  As an aside, every time Solas rants about the Grey Wardens, I want to grab him by the collar and yell, "OK Smart Mouth....give me a BETTER option....and having the world fall to the blight isn't it."

[Ghost Gal]

Agreed.  IMO, given some of the real life parallels, wiping out the elves in DA4 would...not go over well.  And BioWare's usually pretty good about avoiding obvious pitfalls like that.

 

Honestly, I doubt they're going to significantly change anything one way or the other.

 

Just look at mages. DAO introduced the plight of the Circles. DA2 ended with the Circles breaking and mages rebelling across Southern Thedas. DAI lets you side with mages or Templars, but after Trespasser no matter what the the Circles come back, and the College of Enchanters is formed. And thus the plight of the Circles and the back-and-forth questions of "how do we balance mage restraint with mage freedom?" goes on. People hoping for significant, permanent change one way or the other (complete mage freedom or complete mage subjugation) didn't get their wish.

 

I feel it's going to be the same way with elves. We all know BioWare's not going to let Solas' plan succeed, yet while I doubt they'll get rid of elves forever, I equally doubt they'll grant them significant or permanent increased rights or freedoms. Every time elves were granted increased rights in Thedas history and or previous games, things backslid within a few decades at the latest. Once Fen'Harel is stopped and the player can decide to either help or punish the elves, at best we'll get some "Things were looking up for the elves for a time... then there was backlash by humans and things continued to suck for them just like before." Status Quo is God, after all. 

[IanPolaris]

The other problem of course is that Bioware has written themselves into a bit of a corner w/r/t the Elves.  Because any couple of an Elf with any other race results in a child of that other race, Elves are doomed to extinction.  Now that there is going to be forced intermixing, I give the Elves maybe 10 generations max before there are almost no Elves left in Thedas.