105 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghost Gal]

The other problem of course is that Bioware has written themselves into a bit of a corner w/r/t the Elves.  Because any couple of an Elf with any other race results in a child of that other race, Elves are doomed to extinction.  Now that there is going to be forced intermixing, I give the Elves maybe 10 generations max before there are almost no Elves left in Thedas.

 

While the elves have been in slow decline for centuries, I doubt it's so bad that they're right on the verge of extinction within a few generations. I doubt they're going to go within the time period of the games, but rather centuries after the last game is over.

 

However, it's worth noting that J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy ends with the magic going away and elves leaving Middle-earth forever. Tolkien himself confirms that this paved way for the coming of Christianity in Medieval Europe, which drove hobbits further into hiding and got rid of all traces and beliefs of magical, fanstastical creatures, which led to Christian Medieval Europe, the Renaissance, and finally the modern era.

 

Since most of modern fantasy copy Tolkien, they copy the whole "elves and dwarves used to be great races with great kingdoms, but then humans came and they've been in slow decline while humans have been in the incline." The real-world implication (whether they realize it or not) being that magic and fantastic creatures used to be everywhere but then humans destroyed and/or replaced it.

 

It's especially telling that Skyhold's non-mage surgeon comments, if you ask why not just let mages heal the wounded, something like, "We can't always rely on magic. Science is the way of the future. You don't need a spell to keep people healthy, it's diet, exercise, and balance of the humors." Much like our real-world modern values, eh? Then of course magic, elves, and dragons were in decline for centuries (griffons are plain extinct), but the only characters interested in doing anything to bring them back (Flemeth to dragons, Solas to elves and magic, Morrigan and her "humans trample everything they don't understand; magic, elves, dragons...") are presented as antagonists who need to be stopped.

 

So yeah. On a fatalistic note, in the centuries after the Dragon Age it's likely that the Veil will stay up and the dwarves, elves, dragons, magic, etc. will eventually fade away (and the Griffons will stay gone), turning this fantastic medieval setting's future being like our modern a-fantastical and a-magical era.

 

But, again, I doubt they're going to do that within the game proper. Even though they're clearly biased against doing anything to significantly help mages or elves, they're not going to get rid of them during the game series since people expect to see them in these games, and they're not going to get rid of something when they can keep selling Dragon Age titles with these elements in them.

[IanPolaris]

Yeah but one of the big reasons the Elves have lasted as long as they have is because of enforced isolation either of their own volition (the Dalish), or by prejudice and racism (the City Elves).  Even then with the City Elves, you probably have a lot more people with elf-blood than elves (for a variety of reasons but most aren't especially nice).

 

The improvement of the lot of elves is leading to the opening up (and eventual abolishment) of the Alienages (just as happened with the Jewish Ghettos IRL).  That's a good thing but there is a definite bad side.  The only Elf is a pure blooded Elf in Thedas and that is going to doom the Elves to extinction sooner rather than later especially if the elves interact more with humans and other races.

[Iakus]

Given the ominous disappearance of both city and Dalish elves at the conclusion of Trespasser, we know that battle lines are being drawn between the army of the Dread Wolf and basically everyone else.
 
So where does that leave elves as a playable race in DA4?
 
What would the back story be for such a player? There is no good choice: one would either have to be a traitor to the Dread Wolf's insurgency and hated by the majority of one's own race, while at the same time, being even more oppressed as a second class citizen, under constant suspicion of treachery, by all other races. Or, one will be true to the Dread Wolf's insurgency and must role-play as a traitor and a spy while being embedded in the counter-insurgency (formerly known as the Inquisition).
 
The whole spy thing is set up by the final choice of the Inquisitor: the choice of retaining the Inquisition is supposed to make it easier for corruption and treachery to happen. Maybe that was planned from the beginning as a role for PC elves.
 
It might even be kind of cool to be able to role play a traitor.
 
What do you think? Would you play an elf if you had to choose between being constantly under suspicion unfairly, or, as it were, fairly? Is there a third option? One that isn't a huge lore-breaking hack?
 
Please let it not be: "You are an ancient elf, that like Solas, was asleep for 1000 years -- you awaken to find him up to his usual tricks and join the counter-insurgency just for spite."
 
EDIT: For reference, the Trespasser Epilogue reference about the disappearence of elves ...
 

Given the game is likely to be set in Tevinter, playing an elf would be even harder than normal.  Not just because of Solas, but because Tevinter is probably the most stratified society in all of Thedas.  

 

I'd think playing a dwarf would be more interesting.  Being an outsider, and not being subject to the expectations of society, but at the same time not really being a full member of it either.

[Qun00]

While the elves have been in slow decline for centuries, I doubt it's so bad that they're right on the verge of extinction within a few generations. I doubt they're going to go within the time period of the games, but rather centuries after the last game is over.
 
However, it's worth noting that J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy ends with the magic going away and elves leaving Middle-earth forever. Tolkien himself confirms that this paved way for the coming of Christianity in Medieval Europe, which drove hobbits further into hiding and got rid of all traces and beliefs of magical, fanstastical creatures, which led to Christian Medieval Europe, the Renaissance, and finally the modern era.
 
Since most of modern fantasy copy Tolkien, they copy the whole "elves and dwarves used to be great races with great kingdoms, but then humans came and they've been in slow decline while humans have been in the incline." The real-world implication (whether they realize it or not) being that magic and fantastic creatures used to be everywhere but then humans destroyed and/or replaced it.
 
It's especially telling that Skyhold's non-mage surgeon comments, if you ask why not just let mages heal the wounded, something like, "We can't always rely on magic. Science is the way of the future. You don't need a spell to keep people healthy, it's diet, exercise, and balance of the humors." Much like our real-world modern values, eh? Then of course magic, elves, and dragons were in decline for centuries (griffons are plain extinct), but the only characters interested in doing anything to bring them back (Flemeth to dragons, Solas to elves and magic, Morrigan and her "humans trample everything they don't understand; magic, elves, dragons...") are presented as antagonists who need to be stopped.
 
So yeah. On a fatalistic note, in the centuries after the Dragon Age it's likely that the Veil will stay up and the dwarves, elves, dragons, magic, etc. will eventually fade away (and the Griffons will stay gone), turning this fantastic medieval setting's future being like our modern a-fantastical and a-magical era.
 
But, again, I doubt they're going to do that within the game proper. Even though they're clearly biased against doing anything to significantly help mages or elves, they're not going to get rid of them during the game series since people expect to see them in these games, and they're not going to get rid of something when they can keep selling Dragon Age titles with these elements in them.

We might get a surprise, you never know.

Sandal did predict that " all magic will return".

[vertigomez]

I'm surprised though that there is disagreement about whether the majority of elves would join Solas or not. That's pretty well established, to my interpretation. Most of the elves, one way or the other, were oppressed. Solas offers a way to fight that oppression. Who would say no to that and why?

I'm trying to imagine Fenris joining Fen'Harel's cult...

[Sable Rhapsody]

I'd think playing a dwarf would be more interesting.  Being an outsider, and not being subject to the expectations of society, but at the same time not really being a full member of it either.

 

Especially since dwarves have a very interesting social status in Tevinter.  Privileged and important ambassadors thanks to the lyrium trade, but neither citizens nor "insiders."

[berelinde]

That's a very good question, PapaCharlie, but we've got a while to wait for the answer, And you're right. It does seem unlikely. But if the devs do decide to make elves a playable race in DA4, I'm sure the writers will come up with something plausible to explain it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hopefully we can be a City Elf and not forced to be a Dalish Elf again. 

[Heimdall]

Hopefully we can be a City Elf and not forced to be a Dalish Elf again. 

If we're going to Tevinter, that's likely.  The Dalish are supposedly mostly limited to southern Thedas.

[PapaCharlie9]

This is an interesting discussion even though we do disagree. The thing is that today's people, elf, human, whatever, will be destroyed with Solas' plan. He knows that and the Dread Wolf was never someone that the elves looked up to in the past. It really is like they are going to join the devil to spite their oppressors and that is not going to work out well for them at all.

I'm sure Solas's replies at the end of Trespasser have been parsed to death in other threads, so I won't reopen that can of worms. I'll just say that the interpretation I took away from that cutscene is that Solas will save any elf that joins him. Just like he saved the elvhen slaves way back when.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see support in the lore for the idea that there is something intrinsically wrong with modern people (elf, human, dwarf, oxman, darkspawn) that would make them all keel over and die as soon as Solas tears down the Veil. My read is that tearing down the Veil will give everyone direct access to the Fade, including dwarves (I predict dwarven mages in DA4 -- you heard it here first -- Shaper Valta of Descent notwithstanding), thus giving any elf the potential to retake their awesome heritage. This also means that things in the Fade will have direct access to people and that is what will result in a lot of dying. Everyone not under Solas's protection, that is.

I'm sure a lot of people will also go crazy and their head's will explode when the Veil is torn down. A lot of death will come from that too, I'm not saying the event itself won't cause massive death. I mean, it's the Fade. Your every dream come true. But it can't be that everyone will die just by being exposed to the Fade, or else a lot of other lore falls apart, like mages and the Harrowing for example.

[vertigomez]

What's wrong with modern people is that they aren't ancient people, and Solas doesn't see them as real. He thinks city elves are pathetic and Dalish elves are misguided AND pathetic. He has no reason to offer them some sort of... special exemption just because they have pointy ears, when he's already made it clear that they are not his people.

[PapaCharlie9]

The other problem of course is that Bioware has written themselves into a bit of a corner w/r/t the Elves.  Because any couple of an Elf with any other race results in a child of that other race, Elves are doomed to extinction.  Now that there is going to be forced intermixing, I give the Elves maybe 10 generations max before there are almost no Elves left in Thedas.

I agree. But they've written themselves into a corner with the Blight, with the Mage/Templar schism, with the Orlesian civil war, with time travelling Venatori, etc., etc. Nothing a little Maker ex machina can't fix.

[PapaCharlie9]

What's wrong with modern people is that they aren't ancient people, and Solas doesn't see them as real. He thinks city elves are pathetic and Dalish elves are misguided AND pathetic. He has no reason to offer them some sort of... special exemption just because they have pointy ears, when he's already made it clear that they are not his people.

When does he make that clear? Why do (some, any) elves of the Inquisition, the ones we'd expect to be the most compassionate, open-minded and ethical of the lot, the ones who just pulled everyone's fat out of the Coryphish fire, regardless of race, want to join him?

The idea that Solas hates all modern elves just doesn't make sense in the face of that fact of lore.

He certainly thinks modern elves are degenerate and that Dalish are foolish on top of that. No question. But it doesn't follow that he wants to annihilate all of them. He wants to save them. Plus, he carries a weight of guilt for having brought them low in the first place. He wants to make amends by restoring them.

Yes, he sees people who do not have direct access to the Fade as missing something vital, little more than animals. So, tearing down the Veil fixes that problem. The elves under his guidance and protection will learn to wield the Fade the same way as the elves of yore. Everyone else can fend for themselves and probably most will die.

[Ariella]

When does he make that clear? Why do (some, any) elves of the Inquisition, the ones we'd expect to be the most compassionate, open-minded and ethical of the lot, the ones who just pulled everyone's fat out of the Coryphish fire, regardless of race, leaving to join him?

After Wicked Eyes, he makes a comment about Briala and there's a branch where he says he does not consider them his people.

He also makes it clear that he has little love for the Dalish in several conversations. Plus, if you're a elf, during the conversation in your quarters he says "If the Dalish could raise someone with a spirit like yours... have I misjudged them?". But if you take the "No. I am who I am" option, you gain slight approval.

Take that as you will.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If you are friends with him, he does recognize elves and everyone else are in fact people. But is still reluctantly resolved to destroy them anyway because they aren't HIS people.

[GoldenGail3]

I'd play elves. For the fun of playing different races and classes. Although my canon is all human, I'll play an elf becuase I can.

[PsychoBlonde]

Agreed.  IMO, given some of the real life parallels, wiping out the elves in DA4 would...not go over well.  And BioWare's usually pretty good about avoiding obvious pitfalls like that.

 

I suspect this might be a quest chain, kind of like Ser Whathisname in DA2 with his "Tranquil Solution" bit.  It's Thedas, SOMEBODY will go crazy over it.

[PapaCharlie9]

After Wicked Eyes, he makes a comment about Briala and there's a branch where he says he does not consider them his people.

He also makes it clear that he has little love for the Dalish in several conversations. Plus, if you're a elf, during the conversation in your quarters he says "If the Dalish could raise someone with a spirit like yours... have I misjudged them?". But if you take the "No. I am who I am" option, you gain slight approval.

Take that as you will.

Right, I do recall all of those comments, and others -- he dishes the Dalish on several occasions.

I guess I don't read that much into those comments. I don't read him as saying they are not People (capital P, that is, elves) and therefore not my People.

I read those comments as, don't put me in the same category as those degenerates (because it reminds me of my own guilt at bringing them so low). Most of them are ignorant through no fault of their own, but some of them are ignorant or degenerate by choice (e.g., the Dalish). Of course Solas is not going to see himself as a member of the same group, but I think it is a leap to go from that to he hates all modern elves and thinks they should all die.

An extremely bad analogy, but the best I can come up with: Solas saying "they are not my people" in reference to Briala's mob is like Lenin saying Mensheviks are not his people.

[PapaCharlie9]

I updated the OP to reflect the great points and corrections made by so many, even if I don't agree with some of them.

EDIT 2: Corrected initial statement about which elves left to join Solas and toned down the majority/most assertions I made, which aren't really supported and certainly aren't widely agreed to.

[vertigomez]

When does he make that clear? Why do (some, any) elves of the Inquisition, the ones we'd expect to be the most compassionate, open-minded and ethical of the lot, the ones who just pulled everyone's fat out of the Coryphish fire, regardless of race, want to join him?

I wouldn't consider the elves of the Inquisition to be "the most compassionate, open-minded and ethical of the lot." Most people don't want the world to end and will do what they can to stop it. But they don't necessarily know Solas's plan. He constantly bends the truth and lies by omission. Why would he be honest with some random elves that he's inevitably going to use to further his goals?

You can ask him about his people and he outright says that he thought you meant mages, since the elves are not his people.

The idea that Solas hates all modern elves just doesn't make sense in the face of that fact of lore.

I never said he hates them.

He certainly thinks modern elves are degenerate and that Dalish are foolish on top of that. No question. But it doesn't follow that he wants to annihilate all of them. He wants to save them. Plus, he carries a weight of guilt for having brought them low in the first place. He wants to make amends by restoring them.

He feels guilty for having brought low the ancient elves. Modern elves are the consequence of his mistake. He seeks to restore the ancient elves.

Yes, he sees people who do not have direct access to the Fade as missing something vital, little more than animals. So, tearing down the Veil fixes that problem. The elves under his guidance and protection will learn to wield the Fade the same way as the elves of yore. Everyone else can fend for themselves and probably most will die.

All of this sounds like something he'd tell his followers before turning on them. >______> "Glory to the elvhen! (By the way, thanks for all your help but I forgot to mention you don't actually count as elvhen. Deuces!)"

[Bad King]

I hope to play as a Dalish elf again in DA4 so that Solas can be brought to justice by someone he disdains.

 

Hopefully we can be a City Elf and not forced to be a Dalish Elf again. 

 

If this is the case, then I hope we can roleplay a city elf who's representative of most city elves (that is someone who is committed to maintaining what little elven culture they have left) rather than a more bratty sort of city elf like Sera (who is not representative of city elf culture).

 

If we're going to Tevinter, that's likely.  The Dalish are supposedly mostly limited to southern Thedas.

 

Perhaps, though Dalish elves abound in Rivain where they have good relations with the resident humans. If in Inquisition (being set in Orlais and Ferelden) we could play as a human from the Free Marches, then it would be highly believable to have a playable Rivaini Dalish elf.

 

Regarding the point that people are making on Solas not considering modern elves his people, he's actually remarkably inconsistent on this issue (probably due to inconsistent writing). He categorically tells Lavellan that he fears for "our people" if the knowledge that the breach was caused by ancient elven technology got out but then later states that he feels no sense of kinship with modern elves.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I hope to play as a Dalish elf again in DA4 so that Solas can be brought to justice by someone he disdains.

 

Solas sort of disdains all the races of Thedas. Dwarves, Humans and Qunari included. 

 

If this is the case, then I hope we can roleplay a city elf who's representative of most city elves (that is someone who is committed to maintaining what little elven culture they have left) rather than a more bratty sort of city elf like Sera (who is not representative of city elf culture).

 

How is Sera not representative of city elves?

 

- Was likely born in an alienage

- She hated living in an alienage

- She's uneducated

- She's an Andrastian

- She sought out the Dalish at some point which didn't end well

- She shuns the Dalish faith

- She's poor, a criminal and likes to drink

- She starved in an alienage

- She hates most human nobles and constantly fights/pull pranks against them

- She works in a thieves guild 

- She attempts to blend into human culture

- She believes that the Dalish look down on her

- She only has a passing knowledge of elven culture

- She despises chevaliers

 

Yeah, she doesn't care one bit about  preserving elven culture, which honestly at this point is hard to nail down what that even at this point, but she has a lot of the cultural traits of a city elf. Good and bad. 

 

But yeah, having a city/slave elf option would be interesting. 

 

 

Regarding the point that people are making on Solas not considering modern elves his people, he's actually remarkably inconsistent on this issue (probably due to inconsistent writing). He categorically tells Lavellan that he fears for "our people" if the knowledge that the breach was caused by ancient elven technology got out but then later states that he feels no sense of kinship with modern elves.

 

Maybe he was just trying maintain his cover with all his inconsistent talk about our people? Perhaps he was having an internal debate about whether they were his people? That said, by the end of Trespasser he seems to have put his foot down and defined "his people" as the ancient elves and rededicated himself to plan to bring them back, even it means destroying even else included.  

 

Which is both sad and stupid, since now has incredible power and a knowledge that he could use to help the elves of today, who are real elves and more important real people no matter how Solas wants to think about them. 

[Wulfram]

I wouldn't say Sera doesn't represent City Elves but her rejection of her heritage is something that I wouldn't want to be pushed on one of my character.

There's no particular reason why it would be, though. In DAO you could have a variety of attitudes towards the Alienage.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I wouldn't say Sera doesn't represent City Elves but her rejection of her heritage is something that I wouldn't want to be pushed on one of my character.

There's no particular reason why it would be, though. In DAO you could have a variety of attitudes towards the Alienage.

 

Well, yeah, our PC shouldn't be forced into one attitude or another. Then again, in Inquisition were sort of forced to like humans or at very least not have a lot of dialogue options to prejudiced against them. 

 

Anyways, in DA 4 we sort of have to assume that our elf characters are probably going to be railroaded into not being able to join the forces of the Dread Wolf, regardless of headcanon. 

[Ariella]

I wouldn't say Sera doesn't represent City Elves but her rejection of her heritage is something that I wouldn't want to be pushed on one of my character.

There's no particular reason why it would be, though. In DAO you could have a variety of attitudes towards the Alienage.

As I understand it, the term "city elf" isn't really something used in Tevinter, as the vast majority of elves are slaves.

The Alienage is supposed to invoke the feeling of ghettos. Not just in the poverty, but in community. City elf Origin demonstrates this perfectly with how people are acting in the run up to the wedding. Everybody turned out. It wasn't just a celebration for the families but the whole Alienage, as it reinforced their collective identity.

I'm just not sure there are that many free elves living in one place in Tevinter to build that kind of thing. I could be wrong, however.