365 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

I'd prefer "human only" - and then "Altus" member of society.  That leaves us open to a tighter story... with personal agency of the character. 

 

That would be impossible. The Altus are explicitely a mage class. How will we be able to play as warriors or rogues in DA4 if we are Altus?

 

Sure, maybe we'll have Altus as a background for mages, but it can't be the only possible background unless Bioware suddenly changes the lore. Frankly, having a slave, a Tevinter elf, a dwarf from Abassadoria or a Tal Vashoth as the PC in a Tevinter setting would make more sense.

[The Baconer]

That would be impossible. The Altus are explicitely a mage class. How will we be able to play as warriors or rogues in DA4 if we are Altus?

 

We don't know if mundanes born to an Altus family lose their status, but I would guess that they don't. Soporati households are, after all, elevated to Laetan when a mage is born to their family, as opposed to the mage being Laetan and their family remaining Soporati. 

[pdusen]

I can't wait to go to Minrathous. I'm just hoping that BioWare gives us a proper bustling city. There won't be any past-gen excuses this time.

 

No, but to be frank, the current generation of consoles isn't all that powerful either.

[Qun00]

No I want to be in Orzammar.

Ohh, we'll go there again... during the final Blight in the last DA game.

[nightscrawl]

That would be impossible. The Altus are explicitely a mage class. How will we be able to play as warriors or rogues in DA4 if we are Altus?

 

Sure, maybe we'll have Altus as a background for mages, but it can't be the only possible background unless Bioware suddenly changes the lore. Frankly, having a slave, a Tevinter elf, a dwarf from Abassadoria or a Tal Vashoth as the PC in a Tevinter setting would make more sense.

 

I think there is a bit of confusion about the phrases based specifically on what Dorian says:

If you're not a magister, then what are you called? No special title?
I'm an altus, which is almost as good as a magister, depending on who you ask.
I've never heard of an "altus."
Upper class. Those families who trace descent from the Dreamers, the first prophets of the Old Gods. If you're a mage and you're not altus, then you're laetan. Lower class. If you're not a mage at all, you're soporati. That's "everyone else." We do love our fancy words.

 

The phrasing, "If you're a mage and you're not altus," does seem to suggest that both altus and laetan are exclusively mage class.

 

BUT I don't find that this is entirely logical simply because genetics, no matter how much you plan out, are still a crapshoot. It's all about percentages and there will always be some chance, no matter how low, that an altus family has a non-mage child. So in that case, the non-mage should still be considered altus because of the family they were born into.

 

And as The Baconer pointed out, a mage child born to soporati enables the family to be elevated to laetan, which would include all of the other non-mages in the family.

 

 

However, there is one word that I've never been able to determine the meaning of.

 

In Dorian's WoT Vol. 2 entry when it talks about his friend whose house he was kidnapped from, it refers to that guy's family as vulgati. I haven't seen that anywhere else. For some reason I'm leading toward a nouveau riche type. Perhaps his father is a soporati business man who hit it big and is living large and mingling with altus society, but would be looked down on because he lacks the lineage and mage status. This makes the most sense to me, considering the source and tone of that entry, but I don't know for sure that that is the case.

 

 

Back to the topic of DA4 origins... If the above assumption is correct, then we could have the warrior or rogue PC be from an altus family. It would be interesting to see how that is portrayed. I'd imagine that there might be somewhat of a negative attitude regarding such children. But they have to be educated. If they don't have private tutors, then there might be special schools for the non-mage altus children since they wouldn't go to Circles. OR if they do go to the Circles, they would basically be treated like the "short bus" kids, and might even stick together as a result of that.

 

There are all sorts of interesting things they could do with the non-mage altus PC.

[PCThug]

Back to the topic of DA4 origins... If the above assumption is correct, then we could have the warrior or rogue PC be from an altus family. It would be interesting to see how that is portrayed. I'd imagine that there might be somewhat of a negative attitude regarding such children. But they have to be educated. If they don't have private tutors, then there might be special schools for the non-mage altus children since they wouldn't go to Circles. OR if they do go to the Circles, they would basically be treated like the "short bus" kids, and might even stick together as a result of that.

I like the sound of that, sort of an inversion of the last three games. Unwanted warrior/rogue child vs. a much wanted mage child.

 

I'm still holding out a tiny scrap of hope for an Avvar origin but it's unlikely if we're going to be in Tevinter.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm still holding out a tiny scrap of hope for an Avvar origin but it's unlikely if we're going to be in Tevinter.

Maybe you can be an Avvar that was taken by Tevinter slavers to the Imperium. 

[Neuro]

As long as the game is excellent (truly excellent), they could set the entire thing in the Fallow Mire for all I care

 

Jk (sort of).  I'm very down with Tevinter, but also down with anywhere else yet explored.  In terms of where I am betting they will set it, yes, Tevinter, high percentage.  

[Neuro]

I like the sound of that, sort of an inversion of the last three games. Unwanted warrior/rogue child vs. a much wanted mage child.

 

I'm still holding out a tiny scrap of hope for an Avvar origin but it's unlikely if we're going to be in Tevinter.

 

That'd be awesome-- Avvar origin.  Gotta have the accent, too!

 

Has anyone mentioned the Fog Warriors on Seheron? I'm sure they wont be Origin possibilities, but I would love to meet them/interact with them-- maybe a companion?  

 

Fenris' description + Iron Bull's made me really wanna hang with them haha.  

 

cheers

[vertigomez]

I like the sound of that, sort of an inversion of the last three games. Unwanted warrior/rogue child vs. a much wanted mage child.
 
I'm still holding out a tiny scrap of hope for an Avvar origin but it's unlikely if we're going to be in Tevinter.

I think an Avvar backstory would be the only reason I'd ever want to play another human PC. The Inquisitor can banish an entire tribe to Tevinter... it's not totally outside the realm of possibility, though I reckon it'd be hard to work into the overarching story. Darn nobles stealing all the attention.

That'd be awesome-- Avvar origin.  Gotta have the accent, too!
 
Has anyone mentioned the Fog Warriors on Seheron? I'm sure they wont be Origin possibilities, but I would love to meet them/interact with them-- maybe a companion?  
 
Fenris' description + Iron Bull's made me really wanna hang with them haha.  
 
cheers

Hnnng, Seheron! EVERYTHING makes me want to go there. Like I've said before, there's Tevinter, the Qunari, Tal-Vashoth, viddathari, native Fog Warriors, the occasional errant slave... so many possibilities.

[wicked cool]

Are there ambassadors in tevinter? What are possible scenarios that we could be elven if game is in tevinter
If they went back to origin like beginings could we be an elven slave that due to cicumstances we are granted freedom?

[nightscrawl]

Well, you could be a low ranking elven slave or a high ranking elven slave, like the chap serving the Archon in the recent comic. Not all slaves are equal. You could also be a low ranking elven mage, like Fenris's sister, Varania. And yes, you could also be an elven slave that was given freedom, the liberati class.

 

Also, while much is made of slavery in Tevinter, and elven slaves in Tevinter, I doubt that ALL elves in the entire Imperium are slaves, even the non-mage ones. There are likely to be just dirt poor, slum living elves in Tevinter, right alongside the humans in such circumstances.

 

As far as ambassadors, we know there are dwarven ambassadors. There are probably ambassadors from other nations as Tevinter is likely to do trade with them. Economics > any other considerations most of the time.  I doubt that turning their noses up at the mage lords and their slaves would keep other nations from doing business with the Imperium (like the merchant in Dorian's romance quest) if there is money to be made and valuable goods to be had.

[tcun44]

The Fallow Mire FTW

[Mistic]

I think there is a bit of confusion about the phrases based specifically on what Dorian says:

If you're not a magister, then what are you called? No special title?
I'm an altus, which is almost as good as a magister, depending on who you ask.
I've never heard of an "altus."
Upper class. Those families who trace descent from the Dreamers, the first prophets of the Old Gods. If you're a mage and you're not altus, then you're laetan. Lower class. If you're not a mage at all, you're soporati. That's "everyone else." We do love our fancy words.

 

The phrasing, "If you're a mage and you're not altus," does seem to suggest that both altus and laetan are exclusively mage class.

 

BUT I don't find that this is entirely logical simply because genetics, no matter how much you plan out, are still a crapshoot. It's all about percentages and there will always be some chance, no matter how low, that an altus family has a non-mage child. So in that case, the non-mage should still be considered altus because of the family they were born into.

 

And as The Baconer pointed out, a mage child born to soporati enables the family to be elevated to laetan, which would include all of the other non-mages in the family.

 

I've been thinking about it and there could be a way to explain it all if Tevinter's class system is akin to Orzammar's caste system.

 

In Orzammar, if the lowest of the casteless becomes a Paragon, he or she and all their family are elevated to noble status. However, we know that doesn't stop their children from losing their nobility if the boy's father or the daughter's mother are not from the same caste. Applied to Tevinter (instead of Paragon status, they have magic as the gate to social upgrade), it would mean that, as World of Thedas says, if a mage child is born from non-mage parents, he or she and their family are elevated to Laetan status. However, the next generation had better produce another mage heir.

 

This would not only explain the apparent contradictions, but why the noble houses in Tevinter are so obsessed with marrying into powerful bloodlines and giving birth to "perfect" heirs, more than just a matter of appearances. No mage heir might mean the end of the bloodline. As someone who has played CKII, I can almost understand the desperation. It's not something new; the fearsome and tyrannical Spartiate class in ancient Sparta died out because it was far, far, far easier to lose the status than to ascend to the class and their lifestyle made them prone to low birth rates and high chances at dying in battle (again, not unlike the Dwarves, now that I think about it).

[The Baconer]

I've been thinking about it and there could be a way to explain it all if Tevinter's class system is akin to Orzammar's caste system.

 

In Orzammar, if the lowest of the casteless becomes a Paragon, he or she and all their family are elevated to noble status. However, we know that doesn't stop their children from losing their nobility if the boy's father or the daughter's mother are not from the same caste. Applied to Tevinter (instead of Paragon status, they have magic as the gate to social upgrade), it would mean that, as World of Thedas says, if a mage child is born from non-mage parents, he or she and their family are elevated to Laetan status. However, the next generation had better produce another mage heir.

 

This would not only explain the apparent contradictions, but why the noble houses in Tevinter are so obsessed with marrying into powerful bloodlines and giving birth to "perfect" heirs, more than just a matter of appearances. No mage heir might mean the end of the bloodline. As someone who has played CKII, I can almost understand the desperation. It's not something new; the fearsome and tyrannical Spartiate class in ancient Sparta died out because it was far, far, far easier to lose the status than to ascend to the class and their lifestyle made them prone to low birth rates and high chances at dying in battle (again, not unlike the Dwarves, now that I think about it).

 

The Altus class is derived from tracing one's ancestry to one of the ancient Dreamers, so I don't think that's something that can really be "lost", unless the entire family line goes extinct. We know that mages can still be born from non-mages, and Altus mundanes will surely have a higher concentration of magic in their genealogy than regular mundanes, so at worst they can still be used as back-up breeders (most likely paired up with other non-mage Altus "failures") in addition to being retainers, soldiers, government workers etc. working for the betterment of their house. 

[Mistic]

The Altus class is derived from tracing one's ancestry to one of the ancient Dreamers, so I don't think that's something that can really be "lost", unless the entire family line goes extinct. We know that mages can still be born from non-mages, and Altus mundanes will surely have a higher concentration of magic in their genealogy than regular mundanes, so at worst they can still be used as back-up breeders (most likely paired up with other non-mage Altus "failures") in addition to being retainers, soldiers, government workers etc. working for the betterment of their house. 

 

And Dwarven children from a noble parent still have half of their genes and probably descend from a glorious Paragon ancestor, yet that doesn't stop that culture from considering them even worse than criminals if they are from the "wrong" sex and their other parent is casteless, for example.

 

I'm not arguing that it's impossible for Altus to have non-mage children or that those children won't have it better than others (not unlike noble or royal bastards in real history); I still consider it unlikely that they keep their Altus class. And even if so, I seriously doubt they have the presence or influence of an Altus mage. Thus, it would be easier to find other, alternative origins to the non-mage classes. Some people complain about shoehorning slaves, elves, dwarves or qunari into the game, but at least slaves, elves, dwarves and qunari in the Tevinter setting are clearly supported by the lore.

[The Baconer]

And Dwarven children from a noble parent still have half of their genes and probably descend from a glorious Paragon ancestor, yet that doesn't stop that culture from considering them even worse than criminals if they are from the "wrong" sex and their other parent is casteless, for example.

 

Yeah, but Tevinter is not Orzammar. There really isn't a basis for comparison, at least not to the extent that we can say "since Orzammar's caste system works like this, we could safely guess that Tevinter's class system works like this". The entire mechanic of a lower-caste individual marrying into the noble caste doesn't even exist in Tevinter, for example. 

[Mistic]

Yeah, but Tevinter is not Orzammar. There really isn't a basis for comparison, at least not to the extent that we can say "since Orzammar's caste system works like this, we could safely guess that Tevinter's class system works like this". The entire mechanic of a lower-caste individual marrying into the noble caste doesn't even exist in Tevinter, for example. 

 

The example was not about the specific mechanics, but about "being the son or daughter of a noble" not being enough of a requisite to keep the class of the parents. There are real world examples (bastards), but I wanted to make things easier by using a DA example.

 

On the other hand, I found the example I was looking for in World of Thedas 2. Livia, a Dreamer, high queen of Tevinter (before it became the Imperium), high priestess of Razikale and mother of Darinius, founder of the Imperium, had a non-mage brother called Tarsian. He usurped the throne and killed her, but "the rulers of Qarinus and Neromenian refused to recognize a Soporati, or non mage, as the high king" (p.35). So at least Ancient Tevinters considered that a non-mage family member was Soporati, not part of a mage class.

[The Baconer]

The example was not about the specific mechanics, but about "being the son or daughter of a noble" not being enough of a requisite to keep the class of the parents. There are real world examples (bastards), but I wanted to make things easier by using a DA example.

 

Both the real world and Dwarf examples are dependent on some form of "illegitimacy", most commonly in the union of a noble and one of lesser status. A non-mage born from the union of two Altus would by all means be "legitimate", but their status as a non-mage would preclude them from the normal responsibilities and benefits of mage Altus. 

 

 

On the other hand, I found the example I was looking for in World of Thedas 2. Livia, a Dreamer, high queen of Tevinter (before it became the Imperium), high priestess of Razikale and mother of Darinius, founder of the Imperium, had a non-mage brother called Tarsian. He usurped the throne and killed her, but "the rulers of Qarinus and Neromenian refused to recognize a Soporati, or non mage, as the high king" (p.35). So at least Ancient Tevinters considered that a non-mage family member was Soporati, not part of a mage class.

 

That would also be an example that predates current concept of "Altus". 

[Mistic]

Both the real world and Dwarf examples are dependent on some form of "illegitimacy", most commonly in the union of a noble and one of lesser status. A non-mage born from the union of two Altus would by all means be "legitimate", but their status as a non-mage would preclude them from the normal responsibilities and benefits of mage Altus. 

 

Who would say they are "legitimate" in the eyes of Tevinter? For us, the Dwarves' idea of social legitimacy based on the gender of the parent and the child looks nonsensical, yet it makes sense in their culture. So I can certainly buy that in an aristocratic magocracy legitimate nobility status is tied to magic.

 

That would also be an example that predates current concept of "Altus". 

 

That's true. Yet it doesn't predate the concept of "Soporati". The customs of ancient Tevinters and the current words from Dorian support the theory that being an Altus requires being a mage too. Maybe some new information will clarify things, but for now Occam's razor favours this.

[The Baconer]

Who would say they are "legitimate" in the eyes of Tevinter? For us, the Dwarves' idea of social legitimacy based on the gender of the parent and the child looks nonsensical, yet it makes sense in their culture. So I can certainly buy that in an aristocratic magocracy legitimate nobility status is tied to magic.

 

"Legitimate" in that they were the product of an arranged marriage of two Altus individuals, and that they can still trace their pedigree back to one of the ancient Dreamers like everyone else in their social class, with this also being the defining attribute of being Altus. The ties to magic still exist even if the individual hasn't manifested powers (note that this would also be true for individuals born as mages but have a very limited ability to actually use magic). 

 

In this sense, pawning them off to the usual roles reserved for nobles too far removed from significant inheritance would actually be less "dangerous" or inconvenient than booting them out into the world as Soporati. If that happened, it would be quite possible for them to produce mage offspring with a dirty Laetan or even worse, who would then have the pedigree to qualify as Altus, compounding much more scandal and shame on top of that already received by birthing a mundane. 

 

 

That's true. Yet it doesn't predate the concept of "Soporati". The customs of ancient Tevinters and the current words from Dorian support the theory that being an Altus requires being a mage too. Maybe some new information will clarify things, but for now Occam's razor favours this.

 

Fair enough. 

[RobRam10]

Yes I am extremely happy with Tevinter being the next set for DA. Glorious Magical Adventures and dead Qunari awaits.

[Aimi]

I'm kind of sad that this is probably going to be the closest I'm going to get to a triple-A game that is actually set in the Byzantine Empire. Because it's not very close.

[Mistic]

I'm kind of sad that this is probably going to be the closest I'm going to get to a triple-A game that is actually set in the Byzantine Empire. Because it's not very close.

 

Well, at least there's a game series that acknowledges the existance of a fantasy version of Byzantium. For the rest, we have strategy games (forcing the whole world to acknowledge that Byzantium is the true Roman Empire in Crusader Kings II is still a favourite gaming experience of mine).

 

Now the question is if Bioware will take ideas from the Byzantines' history. War and invasion in DA4 are almost guaranteed at this point, but it's not the same being Leo III or being Constantine XI.

[Aimi]

Well, at least there's a game series that acknowledges the existance of a fantasy version of Byzantium. For the rest, we have strategy games (forcing the whole world to acknowledge that Byzantium is the true Roman Empire in Crusader Kings II is still a favourite gaming experience of mine).

Paradox's Byzantine Empire still blows, though, because the politics are all wrong. It takes a special kind of bad to have a whole expansion dedicated to one thing and still get that one thing completely wrong: the Greeks still play like a modified version of France.

and I'm reasonably sure that BioWare's gamers don't want to be marble people