365 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Trespasser made some VERY VERY VERY strong hints that, yes, DA4 will take place in Tevinter. That doesn't mean that DA4 will take place exclusivly in Tevinter. I am of the opinion that the map will be split between Tevinter and The Anderfels directly to the west. Simply too many Gray Warden story-lines have been pushed to the side in the last games to be put off any longer and I see potential for various story-lines to intertwine with one another.

Maybe, but wouldn't Seheron make more sense given the Qunari context?

[Milan92]

I say yes to Tevinter.

 

I just hope it won't turn into a "hurr hurr bring down the system!" story.

[Geth Supremacy]

The Dragon Age hype is real lol.

[Matriarch]

Wether we want to or not, it will be set in Tevinter.

 

So does the story go. And we play their story, not the other way around.

[Mistic]

Maybe, but wouldn't Seheron make more sense given the Qunari context?

 

Seheron is but an island that only matters because is the frontline of the Tevinter-Qunari war. If the Qunari push beyond it, the war is already in the Tevinter mainland. And given the epilogue, that might just be what's going to happen.

 

Nevertheless, we may see Seheron, even if it's as DLC. Heck, especially if it's as DLC. A self-limited territory like an island, the two sides battling there and other factions like the Fog Warriors? Perfect chance for Bioware to sell us an expansion (not that I wouldn't prefer for it to be already in the game, but we all know Bioware's track record in this regard).

[AFA]

I'm all for it, as long as it is the social darwnist depraved culture shown DAO and DA2, and not the social conservative crap it was presented as in DAI. Hedonists living in the rotting corpse of a fallen empire dominating and enslaving all of those weaker than them, fellow magisters included. 

 

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.

Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.

Anders: But no magisters?

Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.

[Addictress]

I'm all for it, as long as it is the social darwnist depraved culture shown DAO and DA2, and not the social conservative crap it was presented as in DAI. Hedonists living in the rotting corpse of a fallen empire dominating and enslaving all of those weaker than them, fellow magisters included.

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.

DA2 party banter is underrated.


For sure the best party banter in the series.

[The Baconer]

I'm all for it, as long as it is the social darwnist depraved culture shown DAO and DA2, and not the social conservative crap it was presented as in DAI. Hedonists living in the rotting corpse of a fallen empire dominating and enslaving all of those weaker than them, fellow magisters included.

What do you mean by "social conservative", exactly?

[Jaison1986]

I say yes to Tevinter.

 

I just hope it won't turn into a "hurr hurr bring down the system!" story.

 

It's an Bioware game. It will absolutely go in that direction.

[Heimdall]

What do you mean by "social conservative", exactly?

Homophobia, I'm guessing, though I don't think that accurately describes the Altus attitude in that regard.

[Mr Fixit]

I'm fine with Tevinter, I guess. If the game goes there, I too hope Seheron gets included. That said, I'd really like to see Antiva. The city would be an opportunity to deliver on everything BioWare wanted and failed to do with Kirkwall. I'd love a good urban adventure; haven't seen one of those pulled off properly since... damn, since BG2 Athkatla, I guess. That's one hell of a long time, now that I think about it.

[AFA]

What do you mean by "social conservative", exactly?

 

it suddenly became a place about "family values," a dislike of women warriors, anti-trans, etc. Dorian's father only dislikes him being gay because of the family legacy thing, but lore seems to imply that Tevinter doesn't like it in general. There views to be behind the times to the rest of Thedas. All of this is new to the lore as far as I know. DAO and DA2 established them as sadistic hedonists, that didn't really care about family, sexuality, or doing blood magic in the open. They walked around with their sex slaves on leashes and did human sacrifice at parties to have pissing contests with one another.

 

I honestly think they are doing sanitizing retcons to the Vints and Qunari so that they will be most palatable to players in DA4.  

[Heimdall]

it suddenly became a place about "family values," a dislike of women warriors, anti-trans, etc. Dorian's father only dislikes him being gay because of the family legacy thing, but lore seems to imply that Tevinter doesn't like it in general. There views to be behind the times to the rest of Thedas. All of this is new to the lore as far as I know. DAO and DA2 established them as sadistic hedonists, that didn't really care about family, sexuality, or doing blood magic in the open. They walked around with their sex slaves on leashes and did human sacrifice at parties to have pissing contests with one another.

I honestly think they are doing sanitizing retcons to the Vints and Qunari so that they will be most palatable to players in DA4.

Um, one of the oldest sources on sexuality in Thedas (codex) specifically says homosexuality is only an issue amongst the aristocracy for legacy reasons.

[Mistic]

it suddenly became a place about "family values," a dislike of women warriors, anti-trans, etc. Dorian's father only dislikes him being gay because of the family legacy thing, but lore seems to imply that Tevinter doesn't like it in general. There views to be behind the times to the rest of Thedas. All of this is new to the lore as far as I know. DAO and DA2 established them as sadistic hedonists, that didn't really care about family, sexuality, or doing blood magic in the open. They walked around with their sex slaves on leashes and did human sacrifice at parties to have pissing contests with one another.

 

Most of what we knew of Tevinter in DA:O and DA2 comes from Southern Thedosian views, and the only Tevinter sources don't go against anything seen in DA:I. In fact, DA:I tends to confirm them, like mages being slaves of other mages (Calpernia, anyone?).

 

And I really want to know where this "sadistic hedonists, that didn't really care about family, sexuality, or doing blood magic in the open" comes from. Even Fenris remarks that Magisters in general try to keep up appearances, even if they commit the most heinous acts behind closed doors. Why would they even care about appearances if they were the caricatures some Thedosians think they are?

 

In more ways than one, Tevinter is like Orlais. Hedonism and depravity is actually Orlais' hat more than Tevinter's, and from the Fereldans point of view Orlesian nobles are just behind Tevinter Magisters in evil. And yet we know that despite being hedonists, prone to metaphorical and literal backstabbing, willing to play a Game in which is pretty common to be murdered as if it was something normal, and lax in values that others in Thedas would consider non-negotiable, Orlesians still care about appearances, they are socially very conservative and incredibly pious.

[ModernAcademic]

I say yes to Tevinter.

 

I just hope it won't turn into a "hurr hurr bring down the system!" story.

 

THIS. That's my hope as well.

 

I've had enough marxism shoved down my throat thanks to Anders and Sera. Thanks, BW, but no more.

 

And btw, concerning the whole noble and heroic leitmotif of Fenris, the slave who fought for his freedom: To end slavery is the answer to the Magisters' oppression in the Imperium? Really? And then what? What will the formerly enslaved do for a living?

 

Will they all disband Tevinter and flee to the South? How many southerners will be able to provide jobs for them? Will thousands, maybe millions of jobs just magically sprout from nowhere?

 

And those that don't manage to find the means to work, what will they do? Rob people? Kill them for their money, for their food? Form gangs that prey on travellers and villagers? What will happen to the millions who have become homeless and jobless? Will they simply starve to death? Because hurray, I'm a freed slave! But oh, now I don't have food on the table everyday anymore. And because I've always been a slave who can't read nor write, I don't know what to do! Oh noes!

 

If the Imperium is wrong about slavery, what other socioeconomical system will replace it? That's a question idealists seldom know how to answer. Fenris only found his way out of this dilemma through Hawke's help. He had someone to lend a hand and teach him ho to survive in a drastically different society. What will happen to the millions who no longer have a hand to feed them, or who have no idea how and where to find non-abusive patrons to whom they can sell their workforce and earn an honest wage by the end of the day? And who will care enough to shelter them from injustice?

 

An old problem will just be replaced by another. I sure would like to see that theme being treated in DA4. It would add another layer of depth to the game, while promoting a healthy reflection on a trope. Ending slavery is a noble ideal, but applying the theory generates inevitable consequences that require a practical and carefully planned answer in anticipation. If BW decides to follow the trope and adds this extra situation for the player to handle, it may lead him/her to reflect on why ending something bad doesn't always have good consequences and doesn't automatically turn you into a hero. It may replace something bad with something even worse.

[Kakistos_]

Maybe, but wouldn't Seheron make more sense given the Qunari context?

I can't see how. On Seheron any non Qun followers would be seen as enemy combatants. We would be attacked on every corner and no one would talk to us. That is assuming some story circumstance doesn't make our protagonist some sort of intermediary accepted by both sides. That said I don't see why we can't visit Tevinter, The Anderfels and Seheron over the course of the game. I just think The Anderfels is a greater priority given various story-lines that have been on the backburner for the last two games.

[Heimdall]

I can't see how. On Seheron any non Qun followers would be seen as enemy combatants. We would be attacked on every corner and no one would talk to us. That is assuming some story circumstance doesn't make our protagonist some sort of intermediary accepted by both sides. That said I don't see why we can't visit Tevinter, The Anderfels and Seheron over the course of the game. I just think The Anderfels is a greater priority given various story-lines that have been on the backburner for the last two games.

Seheron is still contested and I don't see how the hostility of the Qunari would stop us from going there.

It might work better as a DLC area though.

[Mistic]

And btw, concerning the whole noble and heroic leitmotif of Fenris, the slave who fought for his freedom: To end slavery is the answer to the Magisters' oppression in the Imperium? Really? And then what? What will the formerly enslaved do for a living?

 

Will they all disband Tevinter and flee to the South? How many southerners will be able to provide jobs for them? Will thousands, maybe millions of jobs just magically sprout from nowhere?

 

And those that don't manage to find the means to work, what will they do? Rob people? Kill them for their money, for their food? Form gangs that prey on travellers and villagers? What will happen to the millions who have become homeless and jobless? Will they simply starve to death? Because hurray, I'm a freed slave! But oh, now I don't have food on the table everyday anymore. And because I've always been a slave who can't read nor write, I don't know what to do! Oh noes!

 

I think you may have a wrong idea of what the end of a slavery-based economy means in a pre-industrial society. The vast majority of the workforce is devoted to agriculture, they are not looking for other jobs and low levels of literacy aren't important outside urban environments. More than scenarios such as the British Slavery Abolition Act 1833 or post-American Civil War (which, by the way, didn't end in economic apocalypses either), you should think of the transition in Roman lands from slavery to serfdom.

 

Yes, the sad yet not-so-grim truth is that the former slaves will probably become serfs, normal peasants tied to the lord of the lands, unless the ruler who abolishes slavery also promotes some sort of land redistribution.

 

Ironically enough, we already have an in-universe example of that: Maferath redistributed the lands conquered to Tevinter in the South among the different peoples and factions that joined him (of course, it's much easier and convenient to redistribute lands when their previous owners and their enforcers have been kicked out and you want your allies to occupy them), including former slaves.

[The Baconer]

And btw, concerning the whole noble and heroic leitmotif of Fenris, the slave who fought for his freedom: To end slavery is the answer to the Magisters' oppression in the Imperium? Really? And then what? What will the formerly enslaved do for a living?

Will they all disband Tevinter and flee to the South? How many southerners will be able to provide jobs for them? Will thousands, maybe millions of jobs just magically sprout from nowhere?

And those that don't manage to find the means to work, what will they do? Rob people? Kill them for their money, for their food? Form gangs that prey on travellers and villagers? What will happen to the millions who have become homeless and jobless? Will they simply starve to death? Because hurray, I'm a freed slave! But oh, now I don't have food on the table everyday anymore. And because I've always been a slave who can't read nor write, I don't know what to do! Oh noes!

If the Imperium is wrong about slavery, what other socioeconomical system will replace it? That's a question idealists seldom know how to answer. Fenris only found his way out of this dilemma through Hawke's help. He had someone to lend a hand and teach him ho to survive in a drastically different society. What will happen to the millions who no longer have a hand to feed them, or who have no idea how and where to find non-abusive patrons to whom they can sell their workforce and earn an honest wage by the end of the day? And who will care enough to shelter them from injustice?

An old problem will just be replaced by another. I sure would like to see that theme being treated in DA4. It would add another layer of depth to the game, while promoting a healthy reflection on a trope. Ending slavery is a noble ideal, but applying the theory generates inevitable consequences that require a practical and carefully planned answer in anticipation. If BW decides to follow the trope and adds this extra situation for the player to handle, it may lead him/her to reflect on why ending something bad doesn't always have good consequences and doesn't automatically turn you into a hero. It may replace something bad with something even worse.

I imagine they would transition to largely low-skilled labor, except they are now a taxable population instead of being livestock provided for by their owners. At the same time, doing away with the Slave/Liberation split will give then more rights and political powers.

[ArcaneEsper]

I know it's being discussed economically right now, but storywise imo it would look beyond stupid for a society where slavery is totally acceptable to do a complete 180 and abolish it. One of the complaints I have about DAI is that all the problems get resolved so easily because you're the Inquisitor/Herald of Andraste. I really really don't want more of that with DA4.

[djdaem0n]

I know it's being discussed economically right now, but storywise imo it would look beyond stupid for a society where slavery is totally acceptable to do a complete 180 and abolish it. One of the complaints I have about DAI is that all the problems get resolved so easily because you're the Inquisitor/Herald of Andraste. I really really don't want more of that with DA4.

You do realize that most of those resolutions only seem permanent because they are parts of the outcomes being forced by your character's mission, right? I mean, the Warden Commander changed a ton of things in Ferelden for the better, but look how quickly things splintered and reset by the time the Herald became Inquisitor. Hawke went to all the trouble of taking a side and fighting that final battle, and it didn't change the conflict between the Templars and Mages beyond stopping one of them from clearly dominating over the other.

The lesson to be taken from the end of Trespasser in this regard, is that one hero or movement doesn't create absolute change. Not without a new person or movement to pick up and continue fighting for that change.. indefinitely.

[ArcaneEsper]

You do realize that most of those resolutions only seem permanent because they are parts of the outcomes being forced by your character's mission, right? I mean, the Warden Commander changed a ton of things in Ferelden for the better, but look how quickly things splintered and reset by the time the Herald became Inquisitor. Hawke went to all the trouble of taking a side and fighting that final battle, and it didn't change the conflict between the Templars and Mages beyond stopping one of them from clearly dominating over the other.

The lesson to be taken from the end of Trespasser in this regard, is that one hero or movement doesn't create absolute change. Not without a new person or movement to pick up and continue fighting for that change.. indefinitely.

I get that. And what I mean is, in the game itself I don't want to tackle something so ingrained in their society because 1) The Inquisitor did enough magical resolving of conflicts and 2) As you pointed out the consequences don't really matter in the end and things become undone, making it kind of pointless to try and deal with such a huge thing in the first place.
I mean I agree with what your general point is, but I'd prefer if Bioware would steer away from forcefully changing Tevinter's social landscape.

[9TailsFox]

THIS. That's my hope as well.

 

I've had enough marxism shoved down my throat thanks to Anders and Sera. Thanks, BW, but no more.

 

And btw, concerning the whole noble and heroic leitmotif of Fenris, the slave who fought for his freedom: To end slavery is the answer to the Magisters' oppression in the Imperium? Really? And then what? What will the formerly enslaved do for a living?

 

Will they all disband Tevinter and flee to the South? How many southerners will be able to provide jobs for them? Will thousands, maybe millions of jobs just magically sprout from nowhere?

 

And those that don't manage to find the means to work, what will they do? Rob people? Kill them for their money, for their food? Form gangs that prey on travellers and villagers? What will happen to the millions who have become homeless and jobless? Will they simply starve to death? Because hurray, I'm a freed slave! But oh, now I don't have food on the table everyday anymore. And because I've always been a slave who can't read nor write, I don't know what to do! Oh noes!

 

If the Imperium is wrong about slavery, what other socioeconomical system will replace it? That's a question idealists seldom know how to answer. Fenris only found his way out of this dilemma through Hawke's help. He had someone to lend a hand and teach him ho to survive in a drastically different society. What will happen to the millions who no longer have a hand to feed them, or who have no idea how and where to find non-abusive patrons to whom they can sell their workforce and earn an honest wage by the end of the day? And who will care enough to shelter them from injustice?

 

An old problem will just be replaced by another. I sure would like to see that theme being treated in DA4. It would add another layer of depth to the game, while promoting a healthy reflection on a trope. Ending slavery is a noble ideal, but applying the theory generates inevitable consequences that require a practical and carefully planned answer in anticipation. If BW decides to follow the trope and adds this extra situation for the player to handle, it may lead him/her to reflect on why ending something bad doesn't always have good consequences and doesn't automatically turn you into a hero. It may replace something bad with something even worse.

At least slavery Bioware treated "good".

DA2 Oriana You can keep her as slave. Of course I take her as servant and pay her money, I think it's best option. Like you say just releasing slave who is slave all life, whats next? to do so horrible.

I think it was done perfect we have all neceseri options and than some more. be 'evil" "good" and something in between.

 

Spoiler

If released, Orana can later be found employed at The Blooming Rose.

 

You can also set her free and tell her to speak to your mother for help. If you pick this option, your mother tells you that she has sent Orana to the chantry.

 

If Orana remains with the Hawke family, she brings her lute, one of the few items she owns. Hawke comments that Orana plays beautifully. If either of them is romanced, Orana attempts to instruct Merrill or Anders in how to play with little success.

 

And even in DA:I Dorian view on slavery is positive.

 

Bioware can't handle some "popular" topic in today world. Krem, we should have option to be mean to him like everyone else. I always play "nice" character but because I have options who is morlay bad give more meaning to my "good" choises.

 

On the other had Dorian was done good. You can be mean to him and call him selfish or be supportive, neutral.

[Angry_Elcor]

If there's one thing for certain, it's that announcing publicly that everyone wants the same thing that you do never results in anyone disagreeing.

[vertigomez]

If released, Orana can later be found employed at The Blooming Rose.

Holy ****balls, Batman. I had no idea. I'm glad I always give her a job. One where she can, y'know... keep her clothes on.

Anyway, the situation above reminds me of Varania, who bitterly says that Fenris got the better end of the deal as a slave and that "freedom was no boon", presumably because being a free elf in Tevinter sucks almost as much as being a slave. Or maybe it had something to do with her being a mage. It's an... interesting perspective.