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[CardButton]

So Hawke is practically a slave in Kirkwal for 1 year? The practice is not only in Tevinter then.

 

One more thing, with necromantic magic, there is no need for slaves, because necromancers can use zombies to work...just a scary thought....Hawke mom is an evidence such thing is possible in Tevinter...

LOL well true, but I get the feeling that Cuz Tevinter is a pretty warm place the idea of using Corpses might get a little ... decomposie.  The smell alone would be ridiculous, but the corpses themselves would degrade far faster than they would in the more temperate climates of the south; so you would need a constant source of them to get new ones when an old one was unusable.  As horrible as this sounds, a living person can just take the heat better. 

[Qis]

LOL well true, but I get the feeling that Cuz Tevinter is a pretty warm place the idea of using Corpses might get a little ... decomposie.  The smell alone would be ridiculous, but the corpses themselves would degrade far faster than they would in the more temperate climates of the south; so you would need a constant source of them to get new ones when an old one was unusable.  As horrible as this sounds, a living person can just take the heat better. 

 

Maybe they should mummified them first, suck out all the liquids, they don't need it anyway...they don't need to eat, drink, sleep, rest, taking shower...they will never get tired, never complaint and always follow orders. I think they are more suitable to work in mines, chopping of woods, construction....surely we don't want them to cook isn't it? Well their teeth or eye balls could get into our soup...

 

Just something i expect to see in Tevinter...

[nightscrawl]

Just so we're clear, EVERYONE wants Dragon Age 4 to be set in Tevinter right?
 
I don't know. After playing the game again and all DLCs, sure I would like to go there, but there are some mysteries worth exploring like Valta and Titans. When I was at Hissing Waste again the tale of Dwarves afraid of Dragon on the surface was interesting. For the most part we were told they were underground all the time but learned a different story in Hissing Waste. Wonder if there is more to that story???

 
The dwarves are my favorite non-human race in the Dragon Age series. That said, I just don't see them making a game centered around the dwarves, or even with the same percentage of dwarven content as DAI had elven content. I think the most we can hope for is to have another big chunk, similar to A Paragon of Her Kind chapter in DAO.

 

I don't know... maybe it's because of the xenophobia and isolationism baked into the dwarven culture by the writers that's only enabled them to be set aside as they have been. But it just doesn't seem to me that the writers have a great interest in doing very much with them. But perhaps that will change.
 
 

I am not sure if people today have a correct depiction of slavery in mind, we might imagine it is always peoples work half naked in chains and get whipped, i personally think slavery is not always so. Maybe there was such thing in the past, maybe they being exaggerated in modern propaganda
 
You are a slave if you are owned by someone, become a comodity, you can be used as a thing and can be forced to work like animals. So by means, even though you are not get whipped, not being put into chains, you are still a slave if you are a slave. What make you a slave is because you are not free, you are bound to your master.
 
Maybe your master is nice, a good person, never beat you, never force you, always give everything you need to live such as food, clothings, place to stay...but you are bound to your master and not living free as everyone else who are free. It is still slavery.
 
I think Tevinter Imperium slavery is like this, not the beating with whip kind of slavery, but slaves are slaves because they are simply owned by their master. Furthermore, with mind control blood magic, why need a whip to force people to work?

It's been my observation that the nuances and various types of Tevinter slavery, as well as the hypocritical attitude of many in the South toward it, were lost on (or purposely ignored by) many DA players, particularly those of the tumblrati type. I've given up getting into in-depth discussions over it. We've seen three perspectives (four if you count Calpernia) throughout the DA games: from Fenris, Krem, and Dorian, who all look at it through the lens of their own experiences. This is in addition to other NPCs and instances the player has been exposed to through all three games, the most notable being that of the incident with Caladrius. I'm interested to see how the upcoming comic will further add to the spectrum.

[Reznore57]

There's different type of slavery in Tevinter , and even slaves don't get along with other slaves depending on their jobs/position.

 

But anyway YEAH TEVINTER!

Of course I want to go to Tevinter , it's the place where we're more likely to find secrets about the Old Gods , the Ancient elves and even perhaps Andraste.

It's the oldest human empire , and those people stole everything from the elves , lied about it , then messed up big time with magic .

 

I also want to meet the Black Divine , this guy who kills anyone who oppose him in public , and he's supposed to be a beacon of faith "Magic must serve man and never rule over him.* burn someone to a crisp *praise the Maker and his bride Andraste!Mouhahaha!"

He must be hilarious.

[renfrees]

 We've seen three perspectives (four if you count Calpernia) throughout the DA games: from Fenris, Krem, and Dorian, who all look at it through the lens of their own experiences. This is in addition to other NPCs and instances the player has been exposed to through all three games, the most notable being that of the incident with Caladrius. I'm interested to see how the upcoming comic will further add to the spectrum.

I wouldn't count Dorian's perspective on slavery, or we may just as well count Danarius', Hadriana's or, as you mentioned, Caladrius' perspectives. They're all oppressive class. Besides, Dorian never elaborates what "treating well" means in Tevinter. I.e. this codex is an example of being treated well as a slave:

http://dragonage.wik..._to_Halamshiral

"I used to have a master, a mage. He fed me well, never beat me, even taught me how to read so I could do his accounts. But if he had a theory or a spell he wanted to test out, he'd get out his daggers, have the other servants tie me to a post, and carve furrows into my skin. I was so afraid. Every time, I was sure I would die. But at worst I'd collapse, get bandaged up, and lie in bed too weak to move for days. The other slaves visited me in secret to survey the damage. I'd heal just enough before he needed blood again."

[nightscrawl]

Sorry, they're ALL valid as a way to learn about Tevinter. The primary reason I only pointed out those three is because those are the only people you can have involved conversations with about slavery in Tevinter, and they aren't standard NPCs.

 

Yes, the institution of slavery is a terrible, horrendous thing. But not all masters are the same, nor do they treat their slaves the same. Likewise, not all slaves are treated the same or have the same life experiences. There are probably thousands that do physical labor and aren't in a position where they are at risk of being scarified for some blood ritual, and some of those, depending on the owner, will be worked to death just like those in Kirkwall's Bone Pit. There are also probably literate slaves whose sole function is to copy out books. Tevinter is a very large nation and they need millions of bodies to keep it running. There will be menial tasks, humiliating tasks, degrading tasks, simple but repetitive and mindless tasks, labor intensive tasks, dangerous and deadly tasks -- tasks of all kinds. There are so many millions of slaves in Tevinter that the number that are bled in some form is probably very low. Low too will probably be the number of personal slaves, such as the one from the codex entry.

 

Many players, primarily those from the United States, will hear "slavery" and immediately associate it with how it is viewed in the US, which elicits an immediate and visceral reaction, which is perfectly understandable. But throughout history slavery has had many forms, including as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, indentured servitude, but I guarantee that most of those same players would not consider Hawke to have ever been a "slave."

 

All of the different perspectives are important because they allow the player to take in various accounts and form their own opinion. Dorian even admits that he is now thinking about slavery in a different way since being in the South. His challenging the player does not make him a "slavery apologist" as I've seen him referred to elsewhere, but only that he's trying to get the PC to look at it in a different way and think critically. Out of all the DAI origins, the non-mage Trevelyan PC -- which mine is -- is the most hypocritical for his superior attitude about it, which Dorian rightly points out (in a more tactful manner).

 

But as I've said elsewhere, the problem with the Dorian slavery conversation is that it really isn't involved enough and doesn't allow the player to offer more direct challenges that aren't based on simple outrage, leading to a pattern of accusation and defense that is not productive or conducive to learning.

 

 

But back to the topic... If they are going to focus on the downfall of Tevinter it does present an interesting opportunity to have the player start out as a slave, but I'm not sure how that would work out logistically for Qunari and dwarves. If they managed to do that, it would be the first time in the series that the human wasn't noble in some form or other, which would be refreshing, as much as I'd love to play an altus and see everything from that perspective, for both mage and non-mage classes.

 

It would be nice to have the PC be a sort of hero-type that was basically a normal person that stepped up and showed a willingness to do something, similar to how the PC was portrayed in Neverwinter Nights. In that game you were basically just a tough, competent person, but you still took orders from higher-ups rather than becoming the leader.

 

The only downside about a Tevinter-centric game for me would be more Qunari involvement, which I'm sure would be a source of conflict, particularly given the remarks at the end of Trespasser. I'm not too keen on the Qunari in general. Of course, I'm not too keen on elves or elven lore either, but we have the whole Solas thing to resolve. I'm sure I'll muddle through somehow.

[Regan_Cousland]

Tell [abolishing slavery can't be done] to Abraham Lincoln.

 

True. And if social reform in Tevinter is at the heart of DA4's story, and if our protagonist attains a position of great authority, and if she works long and hard on both military and political fronts to fight for change, as Lincoln did -- then abolishing slavery (or at least making great progress towards it) becomes a valid goal.

I'm just saying that we shouldn't be able to solve every single institutionalized injustice in the world via the awesome fighting prowess of our nine-man team, followed by an inspiring speech -- as though nobody in Tevinter has heard one of those in the last thousand years. lol

Give the really big issues the gravitas and complexity that they warrant. Doing so makes the world of Thedas more believable ... as well as more interesting, and challenging to navigate, from a roleplayer's perspective.

[Texhnolyze101]

Tevinter is the only place worth going to so yes obviously.

[MisterJB]

Honestly, I would prefer Nevarra.

[duckley]

As long as the game is not in Orlais or Antiva or any place where you would find Qunari - I am happy. Hate the accents and hate the culture!

[o Ventus]

If there is more to do in the south, I wouldn't mind exploring Orlais some more.

[CardButton]

@ renfrees

 

But again this is just another persons perspective on slavery.  Dorian's perspective on slavery is obviously one of the upper class and perhaps in the case of those slaves he's been exposed to the the truth is that they are actually enjoying a higher quality of living being indentured to one of these influential families, than they otherwise would having the freedom to rot in a gutter.  It doesn't make his interpretations wrong, just narrow ... but then again the same could be said from every first person perspective we've had on Tevinter slavery so far.  We simply haven't had a chance to experience the "truth" yet, just the truths of individuals. 

 

@ nightscrawl

 

I agree that if there were any setting in Thedas that would make sense to have a more limited option of PC race-choices, it would be Tevinter.  Dwarves are just too far removed from Human Society (even those that live on the surface) to actually exploit such a rich setting such as Tevinter and Qunari really wouldn't be there unless they were either a war-prisoner or a Tal-Vashoth who for some reason felt forced to sell themselves into slavery (the latter is how I see an returning Inquisitor PC getting into Tevinter working, regardless of race, anyway).  I would be totally on board if Bioware substituted extensive race options (limiting us to Humans and maybe Elfs) for the choice of PC Origins instead. 

 

 

Personally in terms of locations and the stories they could create its Tevinter, Arlathan Forest (which we will certainly be going to if we are dealing with Solas in DA4 because of its close history and proximity with Tevinter), and The Anderfels with Kal Sharok, that still interest me (and considering the desolate "The Western Expanse" style landscape there AND the relatively close proximity to Tevinter, I would be OK if these two locations ended up in a DA:A style "Expansion" for DA4 and not a full fledged game).     Everywhere else ... meh, I'm ok with them remaining set peaces or showing up in the DA books, I feel no need to explore them myself in game.

[Qis]

Sorry, they're ALL valid as a way to learn about Tevinter. The primary reason I only pointed out those three is because those are the only people you can have involved conversations with about slavery in Tevinter, and they aren't standard NPCs.

 

Yes, the institution of slavery is a terrible, horrendous thing. But not all masters are the same, nor do they treat their slaves the same. Likewise, not all slaves are treated the same or have the same life experiences. There are probably thousands that do physical labor and aren't in a position where they are at risk of being scarified for some blood ritual, and some of those, depending on the owner, will be worked to death just like those in Kirkwall's Bone Pit. There are also probably literate slaves whose sole function is to copy out books. Tevinter is a very large nation and they need millions of bodies to keep it running. There will be menial tasks, humiliating tasks, degrading tasks, simple but repetitive and mindless tasks, labor intensive tasks, dangerous and deadly tasks -- tasks of all kinds. There are so many millions of slaves in Tevinter that the number that are bled in some form is probably very low. Low too will probably be the number of personal slaves, such as the one from the codex entry.

 

Many players, primarily those from the United States, will hear "slavery" and immediately associate it with how it is viewed in the US, which elicits an immediate and visceral reaction, which is perfectly understandable. But throughout history slavery has had many forms, including as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, indentured servitude, but I guarantee that most of those same players would not consider Hawke to have ever been a "slave."

 

Yes, there are various types of slavery, not always like in the US sometime ago as everyone know it. In some culture being a slave is an honor, and in some others the word itself have different meaning and different level of meaning. For example in Arabic, Abdi means slave, and it can be a person name, for example Abdullah means Slave of Allah actually, but you can find in most modern translations they changed it into Servant of God because the word "slave" is sound offensive for westerners, especially for Americans (and liberals)...so the word Abdi there have different layer of meaning, but we can understand it as "the one who serve". Turk in Ottoman era have Janissary army, the army of slaves, it was their elite troop and they are the most respected social class. Becoming a Janissary is an honor, to a point where the people willingly given their sons to be trained as Janissary, it was forcibly but that changed after people see the benefit to become one. So in some culture, slavery is a different thing....

 

But we can see Bioware is lean toward modern liberal tones in Dragon Age, we can't expect much, it will go down to "slavery is evil, Tevinter slavers should be hanged!" to please the crowd...

[Vit246]

But we can see Bioware is lean toward modern liberal tones in Dragon Age, we can't expect much, it will go down to "slavery is evil, Tevinter slavers should be hanged!" to please the crowd...

 

Sadly, yes. Bioware is not interested in complexity or ambiguity. All slavery is the same and there is only one kind of slavery for them: picture a half-naked loinclothed person in chains pickaxing at rocks and being constantly whipped by a cackling master. They'll go for the immediate gratification of FREEDOM or advocating freeing slaves Braveheart-style or Game-of-Thrones-style leaving you feeling all warm and goody two shoes inside with no backfired consequences. Unlike Game of Thrones where she freed the slaves with no plan beyond FREEDOM, without considering how much slavery had been ingrained into the social system and foundation of their world. Suddenly they find themselves kinda missing the job security and relative comfort of their familiar positions and would rather sell themselves back into slavery for the shelter and protection because their great liberator's version of freedom sucks ass compared to before.

[roselavellan]

A setting where mages are not vilified? I vote yes.

[Illegitimus]

Tell that to Abraham Lincoln.

 

Abraham Lincoln would have told you that if you'd asked him "Why aren't you campaigning on a platform of "Free The Slaves Now!"?".  The only thing that put him in a position where emancipation was possible was a situation where the majority of the slave holders led a revolt against the national government.   

[renfrees]

Sadly, yes. Bioware is not interested in complexity or ambiguity. All slavery is the same and there is only one kind of slavery for them: the picture of a half-naked loinclothed person in chains pickaxing at rocks and being constantly whipped by a cackling master. They'll go for the immediate gratification of FREEDOM or advocating freeing slaves Braveheart-style or Game-of-Thrones-style leaving you feeling all warm and goody two shoes inside with no backfired consequences. Unlike Game of Thrones where she freed the slaves with no plan beyond FREEDOM, without considering how much slavery had been ingrained into the social system and foundation of their world. Suddenly they find themselves kinda missing the job security and relative comfort of their familiar positions and would rather sell themselves back into slavery for the shelter and protection because their great liberator's version of freedom sucks ass compared to before.

We've had different type of slave in the series and his perspective - Fenris. He was the most favored slave, a personal bodyguard, you can't rise higher than that as a slave in that society. I doubt he's ever seen a pickaxe while he's been there. He's never questioned his slavery and didn't know what freedom is, what is beyond his master's desires. And he now hates slavery just the same as your chained miner.

Yes, the transitional period would be painful like it always is, like it always was; the abolition has never been done without it. Many slaves, especially those born into it,  don't know anything else, they don't know how to be anything else, but that's not a permanent state. And you're speaking from a slavery apologist's perspective - "Slavery is not so bad, your freedom would be worse, where would you go without your master? I'll feed you and I'll pet you." But people are not cattle and not pets, and slavery is bad, period. I'm not from US, we've had different kinds of slavery over the centuries, including indentured servitude. You don't need to be born in US to realize slavery is bad, you just have to be a decent person.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Abraham Lincoln would have told you that if you'd asked him "Why aren't you campaigning on a platform of "Free The Slaves Now!"?".  The only thing that put him in a position where emancipation was possible was a situation where the majority of the slave holders led a revolt against the national government.   

To be fair it is very easy to see Tevinter in a similar state of near collapse as the United States were during Lincoln's presidency, if not even more so. There is the Qun deciding it is time for war(the past few centuries they haven't considered it war) pressing them on the outside plus all the Qunari spies that are sure to have infiltrated every facet of Tevinter society stirring trouble from within, possibly Solas doing the same with his group, the Tevenes like Dorian, Mae, and their allies who want the Imperium to reform, and the slave revolts that will occur since they see it as their best chance. So if someone like Lincoln showed up in Tevinter, it is very possible they would have much better results than those who tried before, like Lincoln did. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A setting where mages are not vilified? I vote yes.

And ironically it is the place where mages are allowed to act the most like villains.

[roselavellan]

And ironically it is the place where mages are allowed to act the most like villains.

 

Yeah, quite unfortunate. Power ends up being abused in most societies, and I think Tevinter illustrates how far that can go with blood magic. Not that I have anything against blood magic per se, but as Dorian himself puts it, "You always need more".

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd much rather go to Antiva or Rivain than Tevinter. The only way I'd be interested in going to Tevinter is if we get to bring their current system down. 

 

Something like this. I'd actually like a ship-born sort of coastal adventure, but I think the north-east would not only be interesting, but also a good way to see the after-effects of Inquisition and teh changes in the South.

[Former_Fiend]

One of the reasons I'm excited about going to Tevinter is I think it might be the only place in Thedas where bringing the current system of government down is something they'd let us do.

 

DAI is a very pro-establishment game. Very pro-status quo, powers that be, enforcing stability, restoring order. I think the next game needs to be about tearing down the establishment and acting not as agents of order, but agents of change, and if there is any place in Thedas they'd let us do that, it would be Tevinter. 

[TevinterSupremacist]

Of course.

And for those who don't, there's always blood magic.

[Qis]

Sadly, yes. Bioware is not interested in complexity or ambiguity. All slavery is the same and there is only one kind of slavery for them: picture a half-naked loinclothed person in chains pickaxing at rocks and being constantly whipped by a cackling master. They'll go for the immediate gratification of FREEDOM or advocating freeing slaves Braveheart-style or Game-of-Thrones-style leaving you feeling all warm and goody two shoes inside with no backfired consequences. Unlike Game of Thrones where she freed the slaves with no plan beyond FREEDOM, without considering how much slavery had been ingrained into the social system and foundation of their world. Suddenly they find themselves kinda missing the job security and relative comfort of their familiar positions and would rather sell themselves back into slavery for the shelter and protection because their great liberator's version of freedom sucks ass compared to before.

 

In medieval Europe, there was no distinction between being a slave, being a servant and being a worker. Not all who work are paid with money, but only with food and shelter. There was no "workers rights", unions and human right whatsoever. So we can't really tell the difference of being a slave or being a worker. We might be working all day and only got a bread to fill our belly as payment. That is the condition in ancient time. The ones who really have money are few, and money usage was not widespread, only goes around businessmen, lords and kings, coins are used to trade between nations. I really doubt most who work in medieval time got paid by coins.

 

The real definition of slavery is a person being owned, bound to his/her master until get free, if ever get free. And "free" here means free from the "bondage", "obligation", "oath", "responsibility", "contract" to the master.

 

Today, despite everyone against slavery, it still exist in new form, even though you are a worker for the company, it doesn't make you are not a slave to the said company. That's why we have "workers rights" and such things to ensure we are not get enslaved while being a worker. These rights is a modern creation begin at industrial era by socialists and communists. Before that, we really can't tell if someone become a worker or become a slave.

 

Dragon Age is set in medieval era, even though it is a fantasy, i think there should not be too much of modern liberal vibes in it. It will ruin the whole premise. It is fine for futuristic setting like Mass Effect, they should leave Dragon Age as medieval as it could be.

[TheEnigmousPretentiator]

We've had different type of slave in the series and his perspective - Fenris. He was the most favored slave, a personal bodyguard, you can't rise higher than that as a slave in that society. I doubt he's ever seen a pickaxe while he's been there. He's never questioned his slavery and didn't know what freedom is, what is beyond his master's desires. And he now hates slavery just the same as your chained miner.

Yes, the transitional period would be painful like it always is, like it always was; the abolition has never been done without it. Many slaves, especially those born into it,  don't know anything else, they don't know how to be anything else, but that's not a permanent state. And you're speaking from a slavery apologist's perspective - "Slavery is not so bad, your freedom would be worse, where would you go without your master? I'll feed you and I'll pet you." But people are not cattle and not pets, and slavery is bad, period. I'm not from US, we've had different kinds of slavery over the centuries, including indentured servitude. You don't need to be born in US to realize slavery is bad, you just have to be a decent person.

 

Dorian has some dialogue about slavery too.