365 réponses à ce sujet

[renfrees]

In medieval Europe, there was no distinction between being a slave, being a servant and being a worker. Not all who work are paid with money, but only with food and shelter. There was no "workers rights", unions and human right whatsoever. So we can't really tell the difference of being a slave or being a worker. We might be working all day and only got a bread to fill our belly as payment. That is the condition in ancient time. The ones who really have money are few, and money usage was not widespread, only goes around businessmen, lords and kings, coins are used to trade between nations. I really doubt most who work in medieval time got paid by coins.

 

The real definition of slavery is a person being owned, bound to his/her master until get free, if ever get free. And "free" here means free from the "bondage", "obligation", "oath", "responsibility", "contract" to the master.

 

Today, despite everyone against slavery, it still exist in new form, even though you are a worker for the company, it doesn't make you are not a slave to the said company. That's why we have "workers rights" and such things to ensure we are not get enslaved while being a worker. These rights is a modern creation begin at industrial era by socialists and communists. Before that, we really can't tell if someone become a worker or become a slave.

 

Dragon Age is set in medieval era, even though it is a fantasy, i think there should not be too much of modern liberal vibes in it. It will ruin the whole premise. It is fine for futuristic setting like Mass Effect, they should leave Dragon Age as medieval as it could be.

I think you're missing the most important part of slavery. Being a worker I can always quit; if I don't like something in my job I can voice my disagreement and even though it might cost me said job, I am free to do that. Slaves don't have this luxury - they obey or die/be punished, they can't go to another city and search for a better job (master) without being outlawed. Worker, no matter how hard and strenuous his work might be, always have the freedom to quit, even if it means his life will get worse.

[Scofield]

A dont care tbh a just want it to be funny

[CronoDragoon]

I would have preferred Seheron. It's a contested island territory between the Qunari and Tevinter with some local rebellion thrown in the mix through the Fog Warriors. So right away you have a nice conflict that feeds in well with a faction-type reputation system that allows for meaningful choice, with control of Seheron ultimately going to one of three sides. It also limits the consequences by containing your actions to a relatively (compared to DA: I) small radius which could let them go wild with possibilities.

[Qis]

I think you're missing the most important part of slavery. Being a worker I can always quit; if I don't like something in my job I can voice my disagreement and even though it might cost me said job, I am free to do that. Slaves don't have this luxury - they obey or die/be punished, they can't go to another city and search for a better job (master) without being outlawed. Worker, no matter how hard and strenuous his work might be, always have the freedom to quit, even if it means his life will get worse.

 

But if you are so desperate in your life, would you quit from the job that could give you bread to fill your empty belly for a day, everyday...? Most people in medieval time have no choice, either they are lucky to be born in noble house, or do anything just to continue their sad life...in ancient time, there is no graduation that give you a diploma to ensure a good job with a good salary, and you are not protected by any rights, human rights or right movements such as unions or even international body like the UN. Most people of the past only thinking what they can eat for today, and that's their priority. If by being a slave can give you food, clothing and shelter, or maybe even a protection because you are someone comodity, that maybe the best option...in medieval time.

[renfrees]

But if you are so desperate in your life, would you quit from the job that could give you bread to fill your empty belly for a day, everyday...? Most people in medieval time have no choice, either they are lucky to be born in noble house, or do anything just to continue their sad life...in ancient time, there is no graduation that give you a diploma to ensure a good job with a good salary, and you are not protected by any rights, human rights or right movements such as unions or even international body like the UN. Most people of the past only thinking what they can eat for today, and that's their priority. If by being a slave can give you food, clothing and shelter, or maybe even a protection because you are someone comodity, that maybe the best option...in medieval time.

I think you completely missed my point, try to re-read at least the last sentence. If I quit a job and starve as a result, it would be my choice and my decision. People who were free in medieval times, if they had a harsh land-owner, they could go to the city in search of a better lot and try to survive there. That's how the cities grew. Slaves couldn't, they don't have agency of their own - none. If they had a harsh master, well - they're outta luck, they couldn't even try to change it. And if all people desired was a food, clothing and shelter our civilization would be stagnant. Have you heard of slaves who innovated something in any area of expertise? What you describe is cattle, that's what slave-owners liked to think of their "property."

[Qis]

I think you completely missed my point, try to re-read at least the last sentence. If I quit a job and starve as a result, it would be my choice and my decision. People who were free in medieval times, if they had a harsh land-owner, they could go to the city in search of a better lot and try to survive there. That's how the cities grew. Slaves couldn't, they don't have agency of their own - none. If they had a harsh master, well - they're outta luck, they couldn't even try to change it. And if all people desired was a food, clothing and shelter our civilization would be stagnant. Have you heard of slaves who innovated something in any area of expertise? What you describe is cattle, that's what slave-owners liked to think of their "property."

 

I think it is you who missed the point, choice is not the issue here, it is the way people live and how the people perceive it. Able to make a choice is not a factor at all, but how to survive, that what matter. Many women sold themselves to prostitution and whorehouses belong to criminal organizations in ancient time, willingly, because it is the easiest way out. It is their choice and it is their decision. How you want to say about that? Being a Geisha will make you able to eat expensive foods, expensive clothings, drink expensive sake, hanging around with lords, and if you are lucky you could pregnant a Daimyo baby...what else women in ancient time want? To survive...

[renfrees]

I think it is you who missed the point, choice is not the issue here, it is the way people live and how the people perceive it. Able to make a choice is not a factor at all, but how to survive, that what matter. Many women sold themselves to prostitution and whorehouses belong to criminal organizations in ancient time, willingly, because it is the easiest way out. It is their choice and it is their decision. How you want to say about that? Being a Geisha will make you able to eat expensive foods, expensive clothings, drink expensive sake, hanging around with lords, and if you are lucky you could pregnant a Daimyo baby...what else women in ancient time want? To survive...

Yes, it was their choice to sell themselves - when they were free. Slaves do not have it, they can't decide their fates. If a master wanted to make his slaves prostitutes, they couldn't say no. Most of the slaves weren't willing, they were a result of expansionism and feuds. They never got to decide - Hey, I want to sell myself to this nice rich guy, so he'd feed me! And you're talking about Geishas as if their job was to consume expensive food and lay on a cushions.

 

I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about the concept of slavery.

[Qis]

Yes, it was their choice to sell themselves - when they were free. Slaves do not have it, they can't decide their fates. If a master wanted to make his slaves prostitutes, they couldn't say no. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp.

 

Is it the same choices made under oppression/stress/distress and choices made happily with no problems haunting you?

[renfrees]

Is it the same choices made under oppression/stress/distress and choices made happily with no problems haunting you?

See above my edited post. And if you base your concept of the whole class on a willing minority, I can only say that it's incorrect.

[Qis]

See above my edited post.

 

Choices are illusions of free will, you can make a choice, even as slaves, no one have no choice, everyone have choices, but in what condition you make your choices? It doesn't make any difference. You may make a bad choice, is that what makes what being called free will is something to be praised upon?

 

Become a slave could be a good choice, stay being a slave also could be a good choice. Compare with what you get if you are not one...maybe it is worse than you are one.

 

So what is so great about having choices?

[renfrees]

Choices are illusions of free will, you can make a choice, even as slaves, no one have no choice, everyone have choices, but in what condition you make your choices? It doesn't make any difference. You may make a bad choice, is that what makes what being called free will is something to be praised upon?

 

Become a slave could be a good choice, stay being a slave also could be a good choice. Compare with what you get if you are not one...maybe it is worse than you are one.

 

So what is so great about having choices?

Becoming a slave could never be a good choice. It could be an emergency choice, a desperation choice, but never a good one. And I ask you again - what about unwilling slaves, those who were captured or born into it? Those were the majority.

 

I can't decide if you argue for the sake of it, or honestly believe what you're saying.

[Qis]

Becoming a slave could never be a good choice. It could be an emergency choice, a desperation choice, but never a good one. And I ask you again - what about unwilling slaves, those who were captured or born into it? Those were the majority.

 

I have given scenario on how medieval life could be, also slavery in other culture sense, it is not the same your modern idea about what slavery is and the word slave itself. Becoming a slave could be a good choice, depends on what culture/age/race you live in.

 

In context of Dragon Age, i compare it with medieval vibes, not modern liberal vibes, being a slave in Tevinter maybe a good thing compared with wretched life on the street...who knows?

 

Atleast as a slave you are a property of your master, surely your master will take care of you and don't want to damage you. Who want to buy damaged product? Who want a useless product? So you are protected by your master and no one dare to damage you or else having problems with your master. You might be saved from evil Blood Mages who could snatch you at dark street...

 

So in sense, becoming a slave could be a good thing in Tevinter

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Atleast as a slave you are a property of your master, surely your master will take care of you and don't want to damage you. Who want to buy damaged product? Who want a useless product? So you are protected by your master and no one dare to damage you or else having problems with your master. You might be saved from evil Blood Mages who could snatch you at dark street...

You do know that many slaves in Tevinter are bought and used for blood sacrifice, yes? Even slaves that were liked by their masters have been murdered on the whims of their masters. 

[renfrees]

I have given scenario on how medieval life could be, also slavery in other culture sense, it is not the same your modern idea about what slavery is and the word slave itself. Becoming a slave could be a good choice, depends on what culture/age/race you live in.

 

In context of Dragon Age, i compare it with medieval vibes, not modern liberal vibes, being a slave in Tevinter maybe a good thing compared with wretched life on the street...who knows?

 

Atleast as a slave you are a property of your master, surely your master will take care of you and don't want to damage you. Who want to buy damaged product? Who want a useless product? So you are protected by your master and no one dare to damage you or else having problems with your master. You might be saved from evil Blood Mages who could snatch you at dark street...

 

So in sense, becoming a slave could be a good thing in Tevinter

You haven't answered my question. Again you're talking about the minority. 

 

Also, a master's "care" depends on the price of a slave. If it's less than a profit from overworking them, using them for various needs, not many slave owners would be disturbed by abusing, damaging or killing their "property." That's how it worked in real life.

[9TailsFox]

I would have preferred Seheron. It's a contested island territory between the Qunari and Tevinter with some local rebellion thrown in the mix through the Fog Warriors. So right away you have a nice conflict that feeds in well with a faction-type reputation system that allows for meaningful choice, with control of Seheron ultimately going to one of three sides. It also limits the consequences by containing your actions to a relatively (compared to DA: I) small radius which could let them go wild with possibilities.

I agree your idea is great but to bad  it don't have EPIC and AWESOME button. So highly unlikely Bioware would do it.

[Qis]

You do know that many slaves in Tevinter are bought and used for blood sacrifice, yes? Even slaves that were liked by their masters have been murdered on the whims of their masters. 

 

Few cases doesn't set precedece, by the way i don't see any Tevinter Mages sacrifice their slaves so far, or i have missed it, so it is not proven, only rumors

 

 

You haven't answered my question. Again you're talking about the minority. 

 

Also, a master's "care" depends on the price of a slave. If it's less than a profit from overworking them, using them for various needs, not many slave owners would be disturbed by abusing, damaging or killing their "property." That's how it worked in real life.

 

What the difference with real life? You are a product of market and you are sold into market. As soon as you are graduated your head have being branded "can be sold in the market", your school and universities are training camps to train you to be useful for the market you will serve, surely your school and universities take a good care of you because no market want a failed "human capital" in industry. But there are schools and universities who don't care and treat their prospect badly.

 

So it is the same here. The same like in real life.

 

Do you have a choice? What condition making you make the choices you made?

 

Edit : oh sorry i misread what you wrote, but whatever...

[Qis]

What i am saying while you think you are not a slave because you can make choices, you are a slave to the system, you are not free, you are bound to this system. You are indeed a slave. But this slavery is not something like what you imagine, it is still slavery. Can you escape from the system that determine your life today? No, you can't. We are like cattles living in a conditions set on us. We can only choose what is available for us to choose. We may live perfectlyt, or miserable, we maybe treated as good as it can be in this system, or we are treated badly. In anyway we are all bound to this system. We have been sold, being used, being traded freely and willingly...

 

Alright, i may sound like a conspiracy theory freak, but if availability to making choices is what determine you are a slave or not, you are wrong. Making choices do not indicate that you are free, it just you can choose options available to you.

 

So what the difference being a worker and a slave? It just a title, "i am a XXX employee/staff" and "i am a slave..."

[renfrees]

Few cases doesn't set precedece, by the way i don't see any Tevinter Mages sacrifice their slaves so far, or i have missed it, so it is not proven, only rumors

Caladrius, Danarius, Hadriana, Erimond to name a few. I guess it takes willfully blind to make such statements. Sorry, but I can't take you seriously anymore.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Few cases doesn't set precedece, by the way i don't see any Tevinter Mages sacrifice their slaves so far, or i have missed it, so it is not proven, only rumors

We have seen and read about several different Tevinter mages sacrificing slaves in the Dragon Age franchise. At least a couple per game, so it is impossible for you to have missed it. Renfrees listed a few in the post above, and there are more than them.

[Qis]

Caladrius, Danarius, Hadriana, Erimond to name a few. I guess it takes willfully blind to make such statements. Sorry, but I can't take you seriously anymore.

 

We have seen and read about several different Tevinter mages sacrificing slaves in the Dragon Age franchise. At least a couple per game, so it is impossible for you to have missed it. Renfrees listed a few in the post above, and there are more than them.

 

Oh you guys mean DA2...well, DA2 never happened...joking, but no, i never see any slaves got sacrificed by them.

 

Caladrius didn't sacrifice slaves, those Elves technically are not slaves, just captured Elves, not slaves. (Also only those who choose the path could see he sacrifice those Elves). So i never see any Tevinter Mages sacrifice slaves

 

Erimond didn't sacrifice slaves...

[Ieldra]

Regarding the debate about slavery, it should go without saying that with everything else being equal, being free is more desirable than not being free. The question lies in how much you can legitimately weigh other evils of a society against slavery and practices similar to it. Wealth increases your freedom and poverty descreases it, there can be no doubt of that since one makes additional choices available to you and the other takes choices away. Inescapable poverty isn't slavery, but it can result in a quite comparable lack of freedom, especially compared to a system where slaves can own property, up to being forced by circumstance to give away the right to bodily integrity. Slaves don't usually have the right to bodily integrity, and in Tevinter not even to life itself, and there aren't any civil liberties more fundamental than these, but in practice, neither have elves in Orlais those rights. Things aren't simple.

 

So, if we aim to improve the situation of slaves in Tevinter, it isn't enough to say "abolish slavery". That should be the end goal of course, but chances are it isn't possible to "just do it". The situation is not comparable with that of the black slaves in the southern US in the 19th century, who were occupied in a few select jobs. It's more akin to the Roman Empire, where at times 30-40% of the population were slaves. There are things you can do to do away with the worst parts - for instance, by outlawing human sacrifice and actually enforcing that. Then you can, for instance, look on the economic situations of the slaves. Do they have the right to own property, or is that just a custom applied to a few (we know from Dorian that it's at least that)? If the latter, turn it into a law, then make another law that allows all slaves to buy their freedom, and let the situation settle for a while. Meanwhile, in the Roman Empire there was penal slavery, which was basically lifelong forced labor imposed as punishment for a crime. There. we may have to conclude that such punishments are comparable with the standards of the setting, and it's just the term "slavery" that makes it appear worse than similar practices used in other cultures. 

 

What I want, if this becomes a topic in the next DA game, is for the story to treat the subject with some modicum of realism. It may be possible to bring the Imperium on a new path, but changing a whole culture the size of Tevinter is never easy, and it takes time, and the story shouldn't pretend that it's otherwise. If the story manages to contrive an exceptional situation where it's possible to do more than the proposed gradual change, I'm all for it, but the situation should be plausible enough to not adversely effect my suspension of disbelief.

 

@Qis:

Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Your latest post shows a ludicrous level of sophistry.

[Qis]

@Qis:

Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Your latest post shows a ludicrous level of sophistry.

 

i just want bring some light regarding slavery, i don't condone slavery, but to see slavery in medieval time through modern liberal eyes is not fair, as much as everything else, this thing evoled. Something we called as servitude could also being seen as a form of slavery by some. The other way is also true.

 

Prostitution is a form of slavery, and still exist today. Yes some may argue it is their choice, or they get paid, or they are free, they are adults, whatever justifications could come out to make it look okay, it is still a form of slavery. But people can accept it, prostitution exist everywhere and is the oldest business in the world.

 

Your Warden or Hawke i mean your hero might be regular whorehouse client, but yet want to talk about against slavery? That is hipocrisy.

[renfrees]

Oh you guys mean DA2...well, DA2 never happened...joking, but no, i never see any slaves got sacrificed by them.

 

Caladrius didn't sacrifice slaves, those Elves technically are not slaves, just captured Elves, not slaves. (Also only those who choose the path could see he sacrifice those Elves). So i never see any Tevinter Mages sacrifice slaves

 

Erimond didn't sacrifice slaves...

Nice attempt, troll - until your last two posts, but a good troll knows how far to go. Sadly you don't. And operating on the basis of logic "I haven't seen it, therefore it didn't happen" will certainly bring you everywhere. Witnesses like Orana be damned.

[Ieldra]

i just want bring some light regarding slavery, i don't condone slavery, but to see slavery in medieval time through modern liberal eyes is not fair, as much as everything else, this thing evoled. Something we called as servitude could also being seen as a form of slavery by some. The other way is also true.

 

Prostitution is a form of slavery, and still exist today. Yes some may argue it is their choice, or they get paid, or they are free, they are adults, whatever justifications could come out to make it look okay, it is still a form of slavery. But people can accept it, prostitution exist everywhere and is the oldest business in the world.

 

Your Warden or Hawke i mean your hero might be regular whorehouse client, but yet want to talk about against slavery? That is hipocrisy.

I get your intention and share it to a point, but that argument can be misleading as well. Slavery and comparable systems like medieval serfdom may have been common practice at certain peroids in history, but they've also been recognized as evils here and there since ancient times. Thedas may have been partly inspired by late-medieval and early modern European cultures, but that doesn't mean we can't argue against practices that could conceivably have been recognized as evils by the more enlightened people of their time.

 

Also, the statement that prostitution is slavery is simplistic. You're basically arguing that that kind of job can't be anything but forced, by extreme circumstances if nothing else. While that's certainly very often true, it's not *necessarily* true at every time and place. Also, you implicity argue that any set of extreme circumstances that limits your choices as drastically is equal to slavery. There is some merit to that, but I'd say there still is a difference to systems where a person's status as a slave is enforceable by law. 

[ModernAcademic]

I hope we don't get to abolish slavery. At least, not without tremendous effort. Our hero shouldn't be so high, mighty and awesome that she can eradicate hundreds of years of politically and culturally ingrained injustice by chopping off some Big Bad Guy's head and delivering a nifty speech. lol

I'm tired of BioWare being so politically correct.

We all want the real world to be a better, more tolerant place! Of course we do. Surely that's not in dispute.

But BioWare shouldn't constantly push that (admittedly admirable) agenda in their videogames by, for example, turning the formally dogmatic and intolerant (and therefore believable and interesting) qunari -- who couldn't even comprehend the idea of a female warrior in Origins -- into transgender-loving liberals with female military commanders. lol

The qunari leadership shouldn't give a damn about offending people whose personal circumstances don't align with the demands of the qun, just as real-life religious zealots don't give a damn about offending (or killing) people whose actions violate their holy laws.

Likewise, our protagonist shouldn't be any better at convincing the 'Vints that slavery is bad than the last five hundred well-meaning individuals who tried and failed.

And I'm not saying that we shouldn't be able to make a positive impact on the world around us. We certainly should, because our protagonists are strong, smart people who often, at the player's bidding, champion noble ideals. But, at the same time, BioWare shouldn't shy away from giving us dark and realistic socio-political issues to contend with.

We're big girls and boys, Bioware. We can handle it. We know that your NPCs' opinions and beliefs are not always your opinions and beliefs.

P.S. As for setting, I don't really mind where the game takes place. I'm happy with Tevinter, or Antiva, or anywhere we haven't been. But if BioWare really want to bring their new location to life and make it memorable, they should focus on improving its towns and cities. After all, big, empty forests and deserts full of shards and fetch-quests are pretty-much the same -- wherever they happen to be in the world.

Clapping so hard to this. ♡