89 réponses à ce sujet

[Lavellan-San]

Which villain did you prefer? I helped the mages, but I like Calpernia as a villain more than Samson.

[Taki17]

Definitely Calpernia. I only wish she had gotten more screentime.

[Ashagar]

Calpernia without a doubt, she has a interesting backstory and motivations and she invokes emotions in Coryphous that shows he isn't just a two dimensional villain with a god complex.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Kind of hard to respect or be intimidated by Samson when he was basically one step from being a crack ho in Dragon Age 2. 

[Lumix19]

Calpernia is done better in the game, Samson was only fleshed out in entries and primarily in his short story. But as villains I like them both. The burnt out, "screw the world" story is always a nice one and I like how Calpernia doesn't go with the overdone "I was a slave so I want it abolished" story.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Unpopular opinion but Samson. He seems like the tougher boss fight and would wreck Calpernia in a war. Calpernia is too much intrigue and subterfuge for my taste, Samson fights like a dragon.

[Taki17]

Calpernia's motivations for supporting Corypheus are just much more believable. They don't trust eachother fully, but they cooperate for their common goal (restoring Tevinter to it's former glory), although their plans for doing this differ.

 

Whereas Samson joined Corypheus because... why? Because he wanted a better death for his templars? lulz

[Sports72Xtrm]

Calpernia's motivations for supporting Corypheus are just much more believable. They don't trust eachother fully, but they cooperate for their common goal (restoring Tevinter to it's former glory), although their plans for doing this differ.

 

Whereas Samson joined Corypheus because... why? Because he wanted a better death for his templars? lulz

Samson and his red templars are soldiers. They kill and cripple themselves for the Chantry and they were thrown away when it became expedient. Their reasoning is to get revenge on the Chantry and serve another authority who empowers them with red lyrium super soldier strength and act as Cory's enforcers. red Templars feel that if they are going to be tin soldier monsters, might as well respected tin soldier monster for Cory- who will make himself a god and those in his army will be respected- instead of being used and thrown away by the Chantry. They chose to be soldiers instead of forgotten beggars on the streets.

[JD Buzz]

Calpernia has the better story and motivation.

[robertmarilyn]

One thing about Samson, that was consistent, is that the game shows, through things we read, that he had a lot of compassion for the tranquil and his fellow templars. I can't help feeling sorry for Samson but he's too far gone to ever help and he was that way back in DAII. 

[The Hierophant]

Calpernia. The gap between her teeth is adorable.

[AresKeith]

I still feel that Samson shouldn't have the main Red Templar leader

[congokong]

They're both evil, but Calpernia's motivations at least make a degree of sense, instead of Samson's "two wrongs make a right" massacring of the Templars. I also get irked by the idea of that lyrium junkie somehow manipulating the Templars (when I never even suggested he be reinstated in DA2) while acting as Corypheus' right hand man. Luckily I don't have to deal with it since I side with the templars.

[congokong]

Samson and his red templars are soldiers. They kill and cripple themselves for the Chantry and they were thrown away when it became expedient. Their reasoning is to get revenge on the Chantry and serve another authority who empowers them with red lyrium super soldier strength and act as Cory's enforcers. red Templars feel that if they are going to be tin soldier monsters, might as well respected tin soldier monster for Cory- who will make himself a god and those in his army will be respected- instead of being used and thrown away by the Chantry. They chose to be soldiers instead of forgotten beggars on the streets.

Your post seems to be on the premise that the Red Templars "chose" their fate. The people they were, who knew the sacrifices they'd make when joining the Templar order, would very likely not have wanted to be used as a darkspawn thrall to massacre the people they swore to protect. Nothing respectable about that.

[themikefest]

Calpernia

[Sports72Xtrm]

Your post seems to be on the premise that the Red Templars "chose" their fate. The people they were, who knew the sacrifices they'd make when joining the Templar order, would very likely not have wanted to be used as a darkspawn thrall to massacre the people they swore to protect. Nothing respectable about that.

Regardless of what you consider respectable, you can't deny that some did chose to follow Samson, and take red lyrium out of free will. They are not thralls, you are projecting that being a red templar is the same as being a servile slave but many red templars retain their minds for a period of time through self discipline, just like Samson. He teaches them to master the red lyrium, not let it master them. It's true, in time they could completely lose themselves and become behemoths, but they are templars, you have accept you lose yourself to lyrium whether it be red lyrium or blue lyrium eventually.

[congokong]

Regardless of what you consider respectable, you can't deny that some did chose to follow Samson, and take red lyrium out of free will. They are not thralls, you are projecting that being a red templar as a servile slave concept but many red templars retain their minds for a period of time just as they were for a time through self dicipline, just like Samson. He teaches them to master the red lyrium, not let it master them. It's true, in time they could completely lose themselves and become behomths, but they are templars, you have accept you lose yourself to lyrium whether it be red lyrium or blue lyrium eventually.

Maybe some willingly take it knowing what it does, no idea who, but they are definitely being controlled by it and losing their will. Samson is the exception as the game states. Or do you feel it's just a coincidence that anyone who takes it (and survives) suddenly wants to serve Corypheus and cause mayhem?

[Taki17]

Slightly off topic: since we are probably going to Tevinter in the next game, what are the odds that Calpernia will return? Based on what we know about her, do you think she will support Dorian's and Maevaris Tilani's reformist group?

 

And does Samson have chance of surviving his red lyrium addiction?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Maybe some willingly take it, no idea who, but they are definitely being controlled by it and losing their will. Samson is the exception as the game states. Or do you feel it's just a coincidence that anyone who takes it (and survives) suddenly wants to serve Corypheus and cause mayhem?

Why do you think serving Corypheus is such a crazy notion? Aren't the Venatori and Calpernia doing the same thing and they know that they'd be under his power and they don't even take red lyrium. To them, their mortal leaders are corrupt and betrayed them, so they prop up as a god who is in their eyes hope will treat them kinder. A soldier follows orders and serves, a templar more so as they are transformed to be addicted and must follow who ever supplies the lyrium. Cory supplies the lyrium and grants them respected positions in his army, in civilian life they are homeless beggars spit on by everyone, in Cory's army they are generals. Most cultures in Thedas don't even value free will, such as the Qun or the Chantry.

 

My second point is why is Samson the exception? If he can do it, it stands to reason that anyone can do it,

[QueenCrow]

Samson.

 

In another thread, someone offered a critique that Bioware likes to spam old characters and, in the poster's opinion, ruins the story by carrying characters throughout the series.  Honestly, I was gobsmacked by the concept.  Whether Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, or any series of books, movies, games, the recurring characters tie the story together.  And when a character is developed over two or three, or four books, we come to know them more and more intimately.

 

DA:I isn't the first time I've encountered Samson.  I saw him on the streets of Kirkwall.  I learned his desperation.  I also learned that he'd been wronged by an overzealous, paranoid personality.  And when I saw him again leading the Red Templars, I understood how his injustice and desperation could be something that might be taken advantage of by a villain with a skewed moral compass.

 

When he is on trial, he says why he did what he did - and it turns out that the only use Samson had to Corypheus was an immunity to red lyrium's detrimental effects.  He says that he offered hope, thereby betraying that Corypheus offered hope where all other hope was gone.  

 

That's what happens to people when their meaning for existence and the authority that guides their life abuses and betrays them.  They become tolerant of abuse and betrayal, and they, themselves, become abusers and betrayers.  It's all they know.

 

And while Calpernia was a wonderful introductory character - and I really look forward to seeing her again in DA4- I don't know her from before.  I'm told she was a slave and, therefore, has her own tale of woe and injustice, but it's not quite the same as having seen it for myself.

[congokong]

Why do you think serving Corypheus is such a crazy notion? Aren't the Venatori and Calpernia doing the same thing and they know that they'd be under his power and they don't even take red lyrium. To them, their mortal leaders are corrupt and betrayed them, so they prop up as a god who is in their eyes hope will treat them kinder. A soldier follows orders and serve, a templar more so as they are transformed to follow who ever supplies the lyrium. Cory supplies the lyrium. Most cultures in Thedas don't even value free will, such as the Qun or the Chantry.

 

My second point is why is Samson the exception? If he can do it, it stands to reason that anyone can do it,

Templars aren't Venatori. So them abandoning the Maker to serve Corypheus, and all coincidentally out of their own free will upon taking red lyrium, instead of likely simply turning on Corypheus and his minions, IS a crazy notion. I never thought someone actually thought the Red Templars weren't thralls, and that doesn't mean groaning, mindless ones. More like indoctrination from Mass Effect, or the way Corypheus controlled people in Legacy.

 

Why is Samson the exception? Because the game said so. Nonetheless, he is considered the exception.

 

 

Excerpt from Dragon Age Wiki on Red Templars:

 

 

"The exact amount of direct control that Corypheus exerts over the Red Templars is unknown. Since red lyrium is lyrium afflicted by the blight, it can be presumed that it left them completely under Corypheus' control, due to his ability to manipulate any who carry the Darkspawn taint. Others, like Samson, are largely immune to its effect, but serve Corypheus nonetheless, out of personal devotion and belief in his goal. If Corypheus does exert control, it seems to not be absolute in the manner he controlled other tainted beings, like Grey Wardens, since many documents found by the Inquisitor speak of occaisonal unrest and dissatisfaction within the Red Templar ranks, as well as a rivalry with the Venatori, a cult of mages devoted to Corypheus. The journal of one Red Templar in Suledin Keep even tells that he regrets taking the Red Lyrium and even considered a deal with one of the Forbidden Ones, Imshael, to be cured of it."

 

 

What this implies is that besides exceptions like Samson, there is at least some degree of brainwashing upon ingesting red lyrium. Not really surprising considering what it did to Bartrand and Meredith in DA2, but apparently some people need to be reminded of it.

[AresKeith]

Slightly off topic: since we are probably going to Tevinter in the next game, what are the odds that Calpernia will return? Based on what we know about her, do you think she will support Dorian's and Maevaris Tilani's reformist group?

 

I hope she returns and I can see it

 

And does Samson have chance of surviving his red lyrium addiction?

 

Nope

[Sports72Xtrm]

Templars aren't Venatori. So them abandoning the Maker to serve Corypheus, and all coincidentally out of their own free will upon taking red lyrium, instead of likely simply turning on Corypheus and his minions, IS a crazy notion. I never thought someone actually thought the Red Templars weren't thralls, and that doesn't mean groaning, mindless ones. More like indoctrination from Mass Effect, or the way Corypheus controlled people in Legacy.

 

Why is Samson the exception? Because the game said so. Nonetheless, he is considered the exception.

 

 

Excerpt from Dragon Age Wiki on Red Templars:

 

 

"The exact amount of direct control that Corypheus exerts over the Red Templars is unknown. Since red lyrium is lyrium afflicted by the blight, it can be presumed that it left them completely under Corypheus' control, due to his ability to manipulate any who carry the Darkspawn taint. Others, like Samson, are largely immune to its effect, but serve Corypheus nonetheless, out of personal devotion and belief in his goal. If Corypheus does exert control, it seems to not be absolute in the manner he controlled other tainted beings, like Grey Wardens, since many documents found by the Inquisitor speak of occaisonal unrest and dissatisfaction within the Red Templar ranks, as well as a rivalry with the Venatori, a cult of mages devoted to Corypheus. The journal of one Red Templar in Suledin Keep even tells that he regrets taking the Red Lyrium and even considered a deal with one of the Forbidden Ones, Imshael, to be cured of it."

 

 

What this implies is that besides exceptions like Samson, there is at least some degree of brainwashing upon ingesting red lyrium. Not really surprising considering what it did to Bartrand and Meredith in DA2, but apparently some people need to be reminded of it.

Templars don't have to have some religious devotion to the Chantry or "the Maker". To them, they hold as much weight as fairytales, religious indoctrination meant to sculpt a person's values. I've seen red templars feel regret such as those in Suldein Keep so it stands to reason that they they aren't indoctrinated. One cannot have doubt if one is indoctrinated. It's true, a side effect of red lyrium is you become violent, paranoid, even crazy but that can be rectified if you have the self discipline. In Samon's short story, he was able to smack sense into a red templar subordinate who lost himself to the red lyrium and retained his sanity. It's not brainwashing and Samson is not the exception, since they have free will your assertion of "it's in the game" is false. They do it out of personal devotion, whether to Samson if not Cory. 

[congokong]

Templars don't have to have some religious devotion to the Chantry or "the Maker". To them, they hold as much weight as fairytales, religious indoctrination meant to sculpt a person's values. I've seen red templars feel regret such as those in Suldein Keep so it stands to reason that they they aren't indoctrinated. One cannot have doubt if one is indoctrinated. It's true, a side effect of red lyrium is you become violent, paranoid, even crazy but that can be rectified if you have the self discipline. In Samon's short story, he was able to smack sense into a red templar subordinate who lost himself to the red lyrium and retained his sanity. It's not brainwashing and Samson is not the exception, since they have free will your assertion of "it's in the game" is false. They do it out of personal devotion, whether to Samson if not Cory. 

"One cannot have doubt if they're indoctrinated?" You never played Mass Effect, I take it?

[Sports72Xtrm]

"One cannot have doubt if they're indoctrinated?" You never played Mass Effect, I take it?

I have, but red templars aren't "brainwashed" just because you think you see similarities between red templars and reaper constructs.