The Templars aren't the Nazis. Most of the bad stuff he was seeing in Kirkwall was from mages who were out of control and people who regarded apostate mages as prey to be taken advantage of. And what better position could he be in to protect mages who weren't a problem except as a Templar?
Let's not dodge the main point here.
Carver knew that joining the templars inevitably woud mean selling out Hawke or even hunting him down personally.
Or it would mean covertly helping Hawke. Since it didn't in fact mean selling out Hawke, I don't see how it would inevitably mean selling out Hawke. There were a lot of templars turning a deliberate blind eye to Hawke.
Yeah, Carver's a Templar for, what, six years by the end of the game? With no suggestion of "selling Hawke out".
Actually, that could have added an interesting element to friend/rival on siblings - rival Templar Carver tries to apprehend Hawke some time in late Act 2 (or maybe early Act 1 - given what else happens in late Act 2... Though arguably it could be made to work - furious rival Carver blames his sibling, distraught friend Carver reaches out to help his only remaining family* etc), friend Templar Carver tips them off about another Templar coming to apprehend him, rival circle mage Bethany runs away and becomes a blood mage, friend circle mage Bethany lets Hawke know about a group of blood mages meeting in Kirkwall... Dunno what the GW equivalents would be, mind, and obviously Carver is much harder to friend/Bethany is much harder to rival, so that might not be ideal balance-wise, maybe make the rewards better for friend Carver's fight and rival Bethany's, or whatever.
*well, okay, there's Gamlen
I like both characters, and I think it sucks that you can't have both, but I very much preferred Carver over Bethany. Carver has a much more interesting relationship and conversations with Hawke than Bethany does. Also, Bethany was kind of a Mary Sue character, which (sadly) reminded me of Tallis.
Bhetany mary sue? Why?
Bhetany mary sue? Why?
Not so much in the sense of "self insert", but she's overly nice, everyone loves her, has no noticeable flaws (well, I dunno how she reacts if you rival her, but certainly friend!Bethany doesn't seem to bother with such things - I guess she pouts a bit if she ends up a Grey Warden) etc. In fanfic terms, being sibling to the main character (and both of them tracking down proof that their family should still be posh or whatever) is a pretty classic Sue trait, although obviously she's a canon character so that's maybe less relevant 
OTOH she doesn't really *do* anything and isn't really central enough to be a proper Sue, she just sort of wiffles around in the background of Act One then vanishes one way or another with potentially a cameo or two later on.
Not so much in the sense of "self insert", but she's overly nice, everyone loves her, has no noticeable flaws (well, I dunno how she reacts if you rival her, but certainly friend!Bethany doesn't seem to bother with such things - I guess she pouts a bit if she ends up a Grey Warden) etc. In fanfic terms, being sibling to the main character (and both of them tracking down proof that their family should still be posh or whatever) is a pretty classic Sue trait, although obviously she's a canon character so that's maybe less relevant
That's why she isn't a mary sue,and as for flaws it depends on how you se he,there are some who don't like her for her personality that is still a variable,since Bhtany of the cirlce,is different than GW bethany,and in the Dlc with Corypheus shi is awesome like Carver.
I like both characters, and I think it sucks that you can't have both, but I very much preferred Carver over Bethany. Carver has a much more interesting relationship and conversations with Hawke than Bethany does. Also, Bethany was kind of a Mary Sue character, which (sadly) reminded me of Tallis.
Meh. You get an option to kill Bethany if you side with the templars. You couldn't do the same with Tallis (as much as I want to). Plus, while she is nice, she doesn't perform any "wow" antics Tallis does. Also, correct me if I'm wrong here, but Mary Sue characters aren't fully aware of their flaws.
I neither liked Carver nor thought it made much sense anyways that Hawke could be a mage and openly strut about Kirkwall without fear of Templars arresting him or her. To me Bethany represented Malcolm Hawke's magical heritage whilst a warrior or rogue Hawke would inherit the man martial spirit. Carver's antagonistic relationship with Hawke never really seemed genuine or made much in the way of sense.
Still, I would have liked to have both siblings. Dragon Age 2 was pretty devoid of characters outside of our immediate companions that we could give much of a care about - especially by the end of the game.
The Templars aren't the Nazis. Most of the bad stuff he was seeing in Kirkwall was from mages who were out of control and people who regarded apostate mages as prey to be taken advantage of. And what better position could he be in to protect mages who weren't a problem except as a Templar?
Comparing =/= equating. It's a good comparison though as the Hawke's livelihood is in direct defiance to the Templar order. And your "protection" means taking mages from families and putting them in a Kirkwall prison.
I wouldn't say that. At the time, Carver was looking to prove himself to escape Hawke's shadow. Aveline wouldn't allow him to join the city guard because she thought he was reckless. He was less famous/reliable(?) than Hawke after their 1-year service with either the smugglers or mercenaries. Joining the Grey Wardens didn't cross his mind until the Deep Roads.
You don't join a cause you don't believe in over sibling rivalry to "prove yourself" if you're a decent person at all. But if you do believe in that cause then that's different and yet, again, Carver doesn't turn in his sibling. That makes him a hypocrite who seems to only join the order as a middle finger to Hawke. There were certainly other paths he could have taken in his life. Mercenary work, Grey Wardens, move away, etc. That's partially why, outside of spite, I don't find him joining the Templars as believable. ...And to join something like the Templars out of spite is downright pathetic. Another reason I like Bethany more.
You don't join a cause you don't believe in over sibling rivalry to "prove yourself" if you're a decent person at all. But if you do believe in that cause then that's different and yet, again, Carver doesn't turn in his sibling. That makes him a hypocrite who seems to only join the order as a middle finger to Hawke. There were certainly other paths he could have taken in his life. Mercenary work, Grey Wardens, move away, etc. That's partially why, outside of spite, I don't find him joining the Templars as believable. ...And to join something like the Templars out of spite is downright pathetic. Another reason I like Bethany more.
Woah. What makes you think Carver has no actual sympathy with the Templars? Sure, mages like Hawke and Bethany, trained by a competent and ethical man like their father are OK, but what about the ones who are just left to fumble their way through self-teaching themselves to get along? How many of them end up being threats to themselves or others? While the system that entirely cuts them off from their families in order to give them an education is seriously flawed, that doesn't mean that the work of the Templars has no value in Carver's eyes. Templars are not Nazis and mages are not Jews. (The Jews are the City Elves). Fighting rogue mages and ensuring that mages get an education are actually things that need to be done. The Templars may not be doing those things in the best possible way, but that won't be helped by leaving joining the Templars to just guys who really hate mages. Ideally nobody who hates mages as a class should in fact be admitted to the Templars. The correct attitude for a Templar is intelligent caution, not enmity.
Woah. What makes you think Carver has no actual sympathy with the Templars? Sure, mages like Hawke and Bethany, trained by a competent and ethical man like their father are OK, but what about the ones who are just left to fumble their way through self-teaching themselves to get along? How many of them end up being threats to themselves or others? While the system that entirely cuts them off from their families in order to give them an education is seriously flawed, that doesn't mean that the work of the Templars has no value in Carver's eyes. Templars are not Nazis and mages are not Jews. (The Jews are the City Elves). Fighting rogue mages and ensuring that mages get an education are actually things that need to be done. The Templars may not be doing those things in the best possible way, but that won't be helped by leaving joining the Templars to just guys who really hate mages. Ideally nobody who hates mages as a class should in fact be admitted to the Templars. The correct attitude for a Templar is intelligent caution, not enmity.
Stop saying I'm equating Templars to Nazis to support your argument! The situational metaphor I gave is a comparison as I've already stated. And if Carver doesn't want to be a hypocrite who's part of the "all mages get locked up" Templar order, he should do something else, even get involved in the Chantry to change things from the inside. The Templars are the Chantry's enforcers. Him being one more soldier will only work to oppress all mages. If Carver truly does sympathize with the Templars however then he shouldn't join them knowing he'd be a hypocrite by defying its laws for the sake of family while imprisoning the members of others.
Stop saying I'm equating Templars to Nazis to support your argument! The situational metaphor I gave is a comparison as I've already stated. And if Carver doesn't want to be a hypocrite who's part of the "all mages get locked up" Templar order, he should do something else, even get involved in the Chantry to change things from the inside. The Templars are the Chantry's enforcers. Him being one more soldier will only work to oppress all mages.
Carver is not a woman, not scholarly and not politically adept so he could hardly make a difference in the Chantry even if the Chantry had all that much control over how Templars run their operation. And Carver does in fact want to be part of the Templars because he does think they do a lot of good.
Carver is not a woman, not scholarly and not politically adept so he could hardly make a difference in the Chantry even if the Chantry had all that much control over how Templars run their operation. And Carver does in fact want to be part of the Templars because he does think they do a lot of good.
And if that's true then that makes him a hypocrite. We're back to square one.
And if that's true then that makes him a hypocrite. We're back to square one.
My Carvers a GW and he's just fine, I love Carver as a GW. He's much more mature to be honest, and his character is so much better. I don't know how Templar Carver is thought, becuase I have never left him out of my expedition before, becuase i like Warden Carver a lot...
Ditto. I've never done Templar Carver. He either becomes a Warden or dies in the Deep Roads depending on if I'm looking for a neat twist or tragedy in my playthrough. Templar Carver IMO doesn't fulfill either of those nor do I have an interest in prolonging the sibling rivalry dynamic which suits Templar Carver.
But unless Warden Carver is friends with you, he doesn't act very mature (more than Templar Carver maybe) until the end of the game; a reason I often chose to kill him off.
And if that's true then that makes him a hypocrite. We're back to square one.
Except you haven't said how that makes him a hypocrite.
Except you haven't said how that makes him a hypocrite.
Except I did.
Except I did.
You said he was a hypocrite because he joined the order to give the middle finger to Hawke. I said no, he was actually sympathetic to the order and thought it performed a valuable service. You said that made him a hypocrite. How does it make him a hypocrite?
In DA2, I prefer playing as a mage and therefore in four out of five cases Carver's the one who lives. After being "stuck" with him for so many pts, I have sort of grown to understand him.
Maybe I see myself in him a bit: both of my parents are doctors and two out of my three sibilings are pursuing a career in medical path as well - meanwhile I don't have even the slightest interest of the trade and as a rule, I don't have much to say in the christmas table conversations when the four of them get at it.
Maybe it's because his growth is to me much more visible and it just seems so natural (the younger sibling grows up and realizes that the only shadow they had over them was the one they had casted for themselves), while Bethany just... sort of is there, liking you from the very beginning. Unless you want to rival her, you really don't have to worry about her approval. It maxes out within the first half of the first act (that's the case for me at least). Sure, her GW path gives her more character, but at what cost? In Legacy, the GW-Bethany just sounds like a sad kitten who has been thrown into a bathtub full of water, and that is just horrible to listen. Once, I even went back from the beginning of Act 3 to the end of Act 1 in one rogue!Hawke save just to make her a Circle mage instead of a Warden.
You said he was a hypocrite because he joined the order to give the middle finger to Hawke. I said no, he was actually sympathetic to the order and thought it performed a valuable service. You said that made him a hypocrite. How does it make him a hypocrite?
Besides spite I can't understand why Carver would join the Templars. Throughout Act 1 he talks like he doesn't like them, and joining the order leaves him two options:
1. Turn in his mage sibling as is his duty
2. Be a huge hypocrite who takes mages from other people's families and imprisons them but won't do it to his own.
Stop saying I'm equating Templars to Nazis to support your argument! The situational metaphor I gave is a comparison as I've already stated. And if Carver doesn't want to be a hypocrite who's part of the "all mages get locked up" Templar order, he should do something else, even get involved in the Chantry to change things from the inside. The Templars are the Chantry's enforcers. Him being one more soldier will only work to oppress all mages. If Carver truly does sympathize with the Templars however then he shouldn't join them knowing he'd be a hypocrite by defying its laws for the sake of family while imprisoning the members of others.
In DA2, I prefer playing as a mage and therefore in four out of five cases Carver's the one who lives. After being "stuck" with him for so many pts, I have sort of grown to understand him.
Maybe I see myself in him a bit: both of my parents are doctors and two out of my three sibilings are pursuing a career in medical path as well - meanwhile I don't have even the slightest interest of the trade and as a rule, I don't have much to say in the christmas table conversations when the four of them get at it.
That's very interesting. In a way you're in a worse position than Carver (lol) who only had potentially three mages to deal with while you have four medical field family members. And, unlike Carver, it's your choice; meaning I can imagine your family pressuring you into their field.
BTW, is that thumbnail from DA:I when talking to Josephine after In Hushed Whispers or Champions of the Just? I may know the game too well if I can identify scenes just from a facial expression and hints at a posture. 
That's very interesting. In a way you're in a worse position than Carver (lol) who only had potentially three mages to deal with while you have four medical field family members. And, unlike Carver, it's your choice; meaning I can imagine your family pressuring you into their field.
BTW, is that thumbnail from DA:I when talking to Josephine after In Hushed Whispers or Champions of the Just? I may know the game too well if I can identify scenes just from a facial expression and hints at a posture.
Ah, I have joked it about it with my dad some times. He's told me that I could never be a disappointment just for pursuing something that I actually want to do with my life, which is in my case a career in non-medic. Hasn't stopped them from telling me how "great you would do in med school" and how "doctors like you would be so valuable".
And yes, it is indeed, good eye! Can't say that I haven't developed the same thing myself as well though...
Ah, I have joked it about it with my dad some times. He's told me that I could never be a disappointment just for pursuing something that I actually want to do with my life, which is in my case a career in non-medic. Hasn't stopped them from telling me how "great you would do in med school" and how "doctors like you would be so valuable".
And yes, it is indeed, good eye! Can't say that I haven't developed the same thing myself as well though...
You're lucky to have a family that doesn't try to dictate how you live your life. That generally doesn't end well. Imagine living in the dwarven caste system; being forced into the medical field because "that's how it's always been." lol
And I can imagine many of us can identify scenes from the DA games just from a thumbnail. Most just keep quiet. Ha.
Maybe it's because his growth is to me much more visible and it just seems so natural (the younger sibling grows up and realizes that the only shadow they had over them was the one they had casted for themselves), while Bethany just... sort of is there, liking you from the very beginning. Unless you want to rival her, you really don't have to worry about her approval. It maxes out within the first half of the first act (that's the case for me at least). Sure, her GW path gives her more character, but at what cost? In Legacy, the GW-Bethany just sounds like a sad kitten who has been thrown into a bathtub full of water, and that is just horrible to listen. Once, I even went back from the beginning of Act 3 to the end of Act 1 in one rogue!Hawke save just to make her a Circle mage instead of a Warden.
I get what you mean about Bethany. I just happen to lean more towards tragic stories and so, even though I like Bethany, I prefer her to join the Wardens. I also like the idea of Hawke always succeeding in keeping her from the Circle even if her life is ironically worse as a Grey Warden. I've never brought myself to kill her off though.
That assumes that Carver will take in all apostates except the ones in his family. I don't think he will. I think he'd regard his namesake as the model to follow and use his judgement to decide whether an apostate needs to be confined or is or someone he can let slide.
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