223 réponses à ce sujet

[SomberXIII]

OP has a sad life. Should I feel sad? 

[Ariella]

Which I would love. I think the Grey Wardens and the darkspawn shouldn't have ever been in DA:I they were pointless.

The Wardens thematically worked with the story Bioware was telling: The Wardens, the Chantry, etc. All venerable organizations that were collapsing under the weight of secrets, and prejudice and ossification.

And darkspawn are part of the world. To NOT have them start to get restive with Corypheus walking free makes no sense. Do you really think only the Wardens can hear him? Corypheus uses magic powered by the Blight, of course it's going to rile up the spawn.

[vbibbi]

The Wardens thematically worked with the story Bioware was telling: The Wardens, the Chantry, etc. All venerable organizations that were collapsing under the weight of secrets, and prejudice and ossification.

And darkspawn are part of the world. To NOT have them start to get restive with Corypheus walking free makes no sense. Do you really think only the Wardens can hear him? Corypheus uses magic powered by the Blight, of course it's going to rile up the spawn.

I think the role the Darkspawn played in DAI was a missed opportunity, one that could have given Corypheus more depth.

 

The Darkspawn are the number one embodiment of what has gone wrong in the world due to Cory's past actions. They should be a symbol of the corrupt world he is trying to save, ironically tied to him as he is now one of them. It would have been cool if the Darkspawn had treated him like an archdemon-lite, and had a mini Blight emerge and try to follow his forces around. Rather than capitalizing on this powerful war asset, Cory would have been appalled and used the Grey Warden demon army plan to try and destroy them. Give him motivation to save the world, not just gain power. He won't accept power at any cost, he still feels shame that he unleashed the Darkspawn and wants to correct his mistakes.

 

As it is, the Darkspawn themselves have no bearing on Corypheus. It's just him wanting to depower the Grey Wardens even though they are theoretically politically neutral, so they shouldn't be one of his primary targets to destablize the South.

[Aren]

Corypheus is classified as a special kind of ghoul not a darkspawn

[Guitar-Hero]

Warden is f-n overrated.

[GoldenGail3]

Which is why Dragon Age 2 is my favorite game in the series, story wise: for once, we didn't have an overpowered sue able to singlehandedly alter the march of history.

The Warden. Can. Die. Any character that can not die is a Mary Sue, but the Warden can die in there game so therefore you are wrong. Any person who claims the Warden is a Mary Sue has not played DAO or done the US. So yeah, come at bro. I want a real reason why the HOF is a Mary Sue. And they aren't OP, go play Skryim for a moment and then you'll realize the HOF Is nothing compared to the fricken Dragonborn. They are SO, SO much more OP then any DA character ever, they can ride dragons and go into the underworld where you can offer your soul to dradoic Gods. The HOF does not such thing, they are simply trying to stop a Blight, while the Dragonborn is.... I don't know actually, also trying to stop the end of Tamriel. But they do such much crap, that it kind of over shadows any hero in DA. Ever.

And also, the Dragonborn does that too, single handily alter the March of history. They're like Demigods! Half God, half Mortal. Now, give me a reason why the HOF is a Mary Sue. Sense I compared the Dragonborn to the Warden Commander, who also wouldn't stand a chance against the Dragonborn....

[Abyss108]

A character can still be a Mary Sue and die... Especially if its their own choice to kill themselves in a painless heroic sacrifice where everyone will always remember them for the rest of time and how selfless they were in that moment...

 

Comparing them to an even bigger Mary Sue doesn't mean they aren't also one either...

 

I'm not even sure I agree the Warden is more of Sue than other Bioware characters, but the points you are arguing against it don't make any sense.

[GoldenGail3]

A character can still be a Mary Sue and die... Especially if its their own choice to kill themselves in a painless heroic sacrifice where everyone will always remember them for the rest of time and how selfless they were in that moment...
 
Comparing them to an even bigger Mary Sue doesn't mean they aren't also one either...
 
I'm not even sure I agree the Warden is more of Sue than other Bioware characters, but the points you are arguing against it don't make any sense.

I am actually making sense: Play the Elder Scrolls Skryim. They don't die, and yet the become OP people. Yet nobody calls them Mary Sues. And The Inquistor is a Mary Sue. 100%. I'm in a snappy mood about this thread.... Don't mind me. This thread has been driving me out of my mind. I'm sure that someone will tell me to shut up and get away from this thread. So yeah, I'm having a 'I'm done with everything!' Thread moment.

[Abyss108]

I am actually making sense: Play the Elder Scrolls Skryim. They don't die, and yet the become OP people. Yet nobody calls them Mary Sues. And The Inquistor is a Mary Sue. 100%. I'm in a snappy mood about this thread.... Don't mind me. This thread has been driving me out of my mind. I'm sure that someone will tell me to shut up and get away from this thread. So yeah, I'm having a 'I'm done with everything!' Thread moment.

 

Nobody calls them a Mary Sue because nobody cares that they are. People don't want a realistic character in the Elder Scrolls, the game doesn't need or attempt to provide a three dimension character for you to play.

 

People want a bit more than that in their DA protagonist.

[GoldenGail3]

Nobody calls them a Mary Sue because nobody cares that they are. People don't want a realistic character in the Elder Scrolls, the game doesn't need or attempt to provide a three dimension character for you to play.
 

People want a bit more than that in their DA protagonist.

Thank you for doing that. Seriously, this thread is like posion to me.

[midnight tea]

The Warden. Can. Die. Any character that can not die is a Mary Sue, but the Warden can die in there game so therefore you are wrong. Any person who claims the Warden is a Mary Sue has not played DAO or done the US. So yeah, come at bro. I want a real reason why the HOF is a Mary Sue. And they aren't OP, go play Skryim for a moment and then you'll realize the HOF Is nothing compared to the fricken Dragonborn. They are SO, SO much more OP then any DA character ever, they can ride dragons and go into the underworld where you can offer your soul to dradoic Gods. The HOF does not such thing, they are simply trying to stop a Blight, while the Dragonborn is.... I don't know actually, also trying to stop the end of Tamriel. But they do such much crap, that it kind of over shadows any hero in DA. Ever.

And also, the Dragonborn does that too, single handily alter the March of history. They're like Demigods! Half God, half Mortal. Now, give me a reason why the HOF is a Mary Sue. Sense I compared the Dragonborn to the Warden Commander, who also wouldn't stand a chance against the Dragonborn....

 

Actually... I'm making a round in DAO with my Surana now, and the amount of times my Warden is praised for being such a great person with difficult task and doing all kinds of impossible things beats things I've heard or saw in DAI to a point where I have to go "... yeah, this is reaching a dangerous Sueness level". It's one thing to being rewarded for generally sticking to being a good, intelligent, hardworking person, it's another when the praise is going a bit overboard, while many things we accomplish comes just a bit too easy or is a tad too convenient...

 

I mean, at least in Inquisition people being 'starstruck' and praising Inky to heavens can be at least partially explained by their miraculous (if accidental) survival of the explosion and obtaining of the Anchor - which earns them the title of the Herald of Andraste - in fact, it presents an interesting situation where Inquisitor can be frustrated, because their actual accomplishments or attempts to unite people can be almost "dismissed" as divine providence, rather than genuine effort.

 

But barring the treaties and some essential help from Flemeth, the Warden is simply THAT AWESOME. Just look even at their origin stories - Jowan is soooo jealous of mage Wardens he starts practicing Blood magic (and Cullen is praising female mage's Harrowing as the quickest and cleanest he's ever seen and Irving can't stop praising the mage to Duncan). Brosca kicks everyone's butt on Proving Grounds, despite being an underfed casteless. Aeducan is a favorite son, greatest warrior and most popular brother of them all. Cousland is apparently thought of being so responsible that he's being given responsibility over the castle and lands when head of the house and brother is going to Ostagar. Tabris is so awesome that he/she slaughters entire noble house and Mahariel manages to miraculously survive the taint from the mirror and bravely goes back to it despite still feeling crappy.

 

None of Inquisitors can boast that. Oh sure, they're likely no less potentially brilliant. They have to be at least somewhat competent if they're sent anywhere near an event as important as the Conclave, be it to attend it, spy on it or ensure its safety. Their life and growing during times dominated by Blight and post-Blight chaos as well as wars and conflicts in the aftermath certainly hardened them further. Compared to them the Wardens are almost "summer children" - sure, they've had their problems and share of hardships, some worse than others, but their venture with Duncan is their first stepping into the world out of the cocoon of their own little worlds.

 

That only makes things worse in terms of Sueness though, because somehow they manage to get a grip of themselves in very unfamiliar territories and pull through, doing many impossible or near-impossible things in the result... And with nothing more but them and a plucky group of friends most of the time. Formidable as they are, they don't have a backing of an organization as large as Inquisition, like Inky and their inner circle.

 

Plus, Fereldan Wardens are not the last Wardens in the world; they're merely one of two remaining Wardens on territory of Ferelden. Credit where credit's due - they manage to stop the Blight before it becomes more than a local, Fereldan problem... but that itself only makes their awesomeness more apparent. Two Wardens (well, one, really) managed to stop the terror of Fifth Blight almost before it even began! And that's in the midst of useless civil war O_o

 

Plus, as miraculous as some of Inquisitor's accomplishments are, I am still floored by some of the 'lucky coincidences' or sheer convenience of events surrounding a large bulk of Warden's accomplishments. Like I said before, through most of the game, it's just them and their group of friends - and they just happen to stumble upon stuff they need, or accomplish so many things many bigger or no less determined groups or people seem unable to do... It's not the same with Inquisition - we have spies and diplomats and military units acting on our behalf, scouring ruins, examining clues and so on. It's not just a matter of suspicious convenience or sheer awesomeness of a leader that some of the things are done. They also have a bunch of experienced advisers (and possible counsel of a former god of rebellion, among others...) who help them make decisions - it's not just all on their shoulders.

 

To put it simply, Inquisitor is a tad more balanced character in terms of a role they play in the story and world, despite a bigger part they play overall - we can still make them goddamn awesome if we make right decisions, but many of their accomplishments or miracles are better explained (or at least not explained with sheer AWESOMENESS). They're still technically 'better than everyone else' simply because they're glorified heroes, but things just don't come so easy to them, or it's nothing that can't be explained by input of more than just one person in success of both Inquisitor and Inquisition.

[loyallyroyal]

To put it simply, Inquisitor is a tad more balanced character in terms of a role they play in the story and world, despite a bigger part they play overall - we can still make them goddamn awesome if we make right decisions, but many of their accomplishments or miracles are better explained (or at least not explained with sheer AWESOMENESS). They're still technically 'better than everyone else' simply because they're glorified heroes, but things just don't come so easy to them, or it's nothing that can't be explained by input of more than just one person in success of both Inquisitor and Inquisition.

 

So much this, the Inquisitor is backed by some of the most successful and brilliant people in Thedas who are very accomplished in their own right. The warden had a group of misfits and still miraculously managed.

[vbibbi]

Actually... I'm making a round in DAO with my Surana now, and the amount of times my Warden is praised for being such a great person with difficult task and doing all kinds of impossible things beats things I've heard or saw in DAI to a point where I have to go "... yeah, this is reaching a dangerous Sueness level". It's one thing to being rewarded for generally sticking to being a good, intelligent, hardworking person, it's another when the praise is going a bit overboard, while many things we accomplish comes just a bit too easy or is a tad too convenient...

 

I mean, at least in Inquisition people being 'starstruck' and praising Inky to heavens can be at least partially explained by their miraculous (if accidental) survival of the explosion and obtaining of the Anchor - which earns them the title of the Herald of Andraste - in fact, it presents an interesting situation where Inquisitor can be frustrated, because their actual accomplishments or attempts to unite people can be almost "dismissed" as divine providence, rather than genuine effort.

 

But barring the treaties and some essential help from Flemeth, the Warden is simply THAT AWESOME. Just look even at their origin stories - Jowan is soooo jealous of mage Wardens he starts practicing Blood magic (and Cullen is praising female mage's Harrowing as the quickest and cleanest he's ever seen and Irving can't stop praising the mage to Duncan). Brosca kicks everyone's butt on Proving Grounds, despite being an underfed casteless. Aeducan is a favorite son, greatest warrior and most popular brother of them all. Cousland is apparently thought of being so responsible that he's being given responsibility over the castle and lands when head of the house and brother is going to Ostagar. Tabris is so awesome that he/she slaughters entire noble house and Mahariel manages to miraculously survive the taint from the mirror and bravely goes back to it despite still feeling crappy.

 

None of Inquisitors can boast that. Oh sure, they're likely no less potentially brilliant. They have to be at least somewhat competent if they're sent anywhere near an event as important as the Conclave, be it to attend it, spy on it or ensure its safety. Their life and growing during times dominated by Blight and post-Blight chaos as well as wars and conflicts in the aftermath certainly hardened them further. Compared to them the Wardens are almost "summer children" - sure, they've had their problems and share of hardships, some worse than others, but their venture with Duncan is their first stepping into the world out of the cocoon of their own little worlds.

 

That only makes things worse in terms of Sueness though, because somehow they manage to get a grip of themselves in very unfamiliar territories and pull through, doing many impossible or near-impossible things in the result... And with nothing more but them and a plucky group of friends most of the time. Formidable as they are, they don't have a backing of an organization as large as Inquisition, like Inky and their inner circle.

 

Plus, Fereldan Wardens are not the last Wardens in the world; they're merely one of two remaining Wardens on territory of Ferelden. Credit where credit's due - they manage to stop the Blight before it becomes more than a local, Fereldan problem... but that itself only makes their awesomeness more apparent. Two Wardens (well, one, really) managed to stop the terror of Fifth Blight almost before it even began! And that's in the midst of useless civil war O_o

 

Plus, as miraculous as some of Inquisitor's accomplishments are, I am still floored by some of the 'lucky coincidences' or sheer convenience of events surrounding a large bulk of Warden's accomplishments. Like I said before, through most of the game, it's just them and their group of friends - and they just happen to stumble upon stuff they need, or accomplish so many things many bigger or no less determined groups or people seem unable to do... It's not the same with Inquisition - we have spies and diplomats and military units acting on our behalf, scouring ruins, examining clues and so on. It's not just a matter of suspicious convenience or sheer awesomeness of a leader that some of the things are done. They also have a bunch of experienced advisers (and possible counsel of a former god of rebellion, among others...) who help them make decisions - it's not just all on their shoulders.

 

To put it simply, Inquisitor is a tad more balanced character in terms of a role they play in the story and world, despite a bigger part they play overall - we can still make them goddamn awesome if we make right decisions, but many of their accomplishments or miracles are better explained (or at least not explained with sheer AWESOMENESS). They're still technically 'better than everyone else' simply because they're glorified heroes, but things just don't come so easy to them, or it's nothing that can't be explained by input of more than just one person in success of both Inquisitor and Inquisition.

Not arguing the awesomesauce annoyingness the Warden gains. Personally, I never want to see the Warden ever again or have them pop up again in casual dialogue in future games.

 

There are times when this happens with the Inquisitor, too, though. The biggest time I can think of is after Haven is destroyed, the Inquisitor is alone and freezing in the mountains, and for no reason whatsoever learns how to use the Anchor for an AoA power. Is it a delayed response to the Breach closing? Some of the residual energy when it closed returned to the Anchor? Why was that not immediate when the Breach was closed?

 

And then the Inquisitor somehow staggers alone through the snow for what seems like forever (darn you, autowalk!) until s/he reaches the other survivors. Survivors who, by the way, fled Haven with enough supplies to make shelter and warmth and feed a large number of people. Which was somehow possible while everyone was just fleeing the fake archdemon and going through a hidden path which presumably is hidden due to its small size. So really both Inquisitor and Inquisition hold the awesome ball in this scenario.

 

Plus they then reach Skyhold, an isolated mountain fortress which is strategically useless, since it's cut off from realistic supply lines and is nowhere strategically placed, going by the panoramic shot of us arriving there. It is all very epic and rewarding after IYHSB until I take a step back and wonder at the realistic likelihood of any of this happening. Where are the crops to feed such a large organization? How do supply chains travel the mountain path reliably, without worry of avalanche or getting lost in the snow and freezing to death? The reason Haven was able to survive apart from the Chantry for centuries in DAO was that it was so remote and inaccessible that no one would have come across it unless looking for it. The same seems to be true of Skyhold.

 

Bonus points for seeing the majority of the Inquisition's army camped at the bottom of Skyhold, in what looks to be a snow field. Sucks to be part of that army.

[Abyss108]

Not arguing the awesomesauce annoyingness the Warden gains. Personally, I never want to see the Warden ever again or have them pop up again in casual dialogue in future games.

 

There are times when this happens with the Inquisitor, too, though. The biggest time I can think of is after Haven is destroyed, the Inquisitor is alone and freezing in the mountains, and for no reason whatsoever learns how to use the Anchor for an AoA power. Is it a delayed response to the Breach closing? Some of the residual energy when it closed returned to the Anchor? Why was that not immediate when the Breach was closed?

 

And then the Inquisitor somehow staggers alone through the snow for what seems like forever (darn you, autowalk!) until s/he reaches the other survivors. Survivors who, by the way, fled Haven with enough supplies to make shelter and warmth and feed a large number of people. Which was somehow possible while everyone was just fleeing the fake archdemon and going through a hidden path which presumably is hidden due to its small size. So really both Inquisitor and Inquisition hold the awesome ball in this scenario.

 

Plus they then reach Skyhold, an isolated mountain fortress which is strategically useless, since it's cut off from realistic supply lines and is nowhere strategically placed, going by the panoramic shot of us arriving there. It is all very epic and rewarding after IYHSB until I take a step back and wonder at the realistic likelihood of any of this happening. Where are the crops to feed such a large organization? How do supply chains travel the mountain path reliably, without worry of avalanche or getting lost in the snow and freezing to death? The reason Haven was able to survive apart from the Chantry for centuries in DAO was that it was so remote and inaccessible that no one would have come across it unless looking for it. The same seems to be true of Skyhold.

 

Bonus points for seeing the majority of the Inquisition's army camped at the bottom of Skyhold, in what looks to be a snow field. Sucks to be part of that army.

 

 

I kiiiiiiiiinda half agree, half disagree with this. 

 

New Anchor ability after Haven - I think this may be due to what Cory did with the orb. He was trying to take it from you, and I think he "unlocked" some of it's power whilst doing so. This isn't very well explained if it's the case though, probably should have had a line of dialogue saying this or something.

 

Surviving the cold - yeah, chances are you should have died. But this is the only case I think you truly held the "awesome ball", and you don't really do anything amazing, just not die, you only just barely manage that. It's not completely unbelievable that someone could have barely survived this situation, so I'm OK with having the awesome ball just this once.

 

Skyhold - this is just map/scene design not being very realistic. The Inquisitor isn't supposed to have done anything here, it's just not supposed to be a problem. Numerous other people have lived in Skyhold over the years and not had this problem either, so it's not something special about the Inquisitor. 

[midnight tea]

Not arguing the awesomesauce annoyingness the Warden gains. Personally, I never want to see the Warden ever again or have them pop up again in casual dialogue in future games.

 

There are times when this happens with the Inquisitor, too, though. The biggest time I can think of is after Haven is destroyed, the Inquisitor is alone and freezing in the mountains, and for no reason whatsoever learns how to use the Anchor for an AoA power. Is it a delayed response to the Breach closing? Some of the residual energy when it closed returned to the Anchor? Why was that not immediate when the Breach was closed?

 

And then the Inquisitor somehow staggers alone through the snow for what seems like forever (darn you, autowalk!) until s/he reaches the other survivors. Survivors who, by the way, fled Haven with enough supplies to make shelter and warmth and feed a large number of people. Which was somehow possible while everyone was just fleeing the fake archdemon and going through a hidden path which presumably is hidden due to its small size. So really both Inquisitor and Inquisition hold the awesome ball in this scenario.

 

Plus they then reach Skyhold, an isolated mountain fortress which is strategically useless, since it's cut off from realistic supply lines and is nowhere strategically placed, going by the panoramic shot of us arriving there. It is all very epic and rewarding after IYHSB until I take a step back and wonder at the realistic likelihood of any of this happening. Where are the crops to feed such a large organization? How do supply chains travel the mountain path reliably, without worry of avalanche or getting lost in the snow and freezing to death? The reason Haven was able to survive apart from the Chantry for centuries in DAO was that it was so remote and inaccessible that no one would have come across it unless looking for it. The same seems to be true of Skyhold.

 

Bonus points for seeing the majority of the Inquisition's army camped at the bottom of Skyhold, in what looks to be a snow field. Sucks to be part of that army.

 

Yeah, I'm not going to argue that the miraculous power of awesomeness isn't affecting Inquisitor too (heck, Varric even lists all of our accomplishments and calls it either being led by divine power of having the worst luck, lol) but it isn't as pervasive as I feel it is in DAO.

They still do awesome things, but it seems to not be coming almost out of nowhere so often, or things being a bit too convenient - in fact, I appreciate that Inquisitor isn't the only one doing the heavy lifting and is surrounded by competent people.

The DA series is supposed to be about characters after all, which doesn't necessarily means just "new PC for each chapter", but characterd surrounding the PC, working with them - power of teamwork and all. I like the gang in DAO, and I don't dislike the Warden overall, but I feel the DAI balances the party and their contributions better, or explains many unusual circumstances Inkys find themselves better. It's not just a small, ragtag group with basically no real backing or headquarters, left to struggle with scrambling people together through sheer charisma and badassery, but a legit organization, with growing political weight behind it and a - hopefully - competent leader.

 

Anyway - the Anchor was already touched upon by Abyss108, so is the marching through the cold... though personally I think that moment was supposed to be more poetic than realistic: it was supposed to show Inquisitor's inner resilience and determination to reach their 'pack', alone, at one of their lowest points - I say pack, because there are wolves howling all around Inky when they travel, and at the end we actually hear the howls coming from the direction of the camp, as if they lead the Inquisitor.... That, and we do see how Solas depicts the formation of Inquisition with howling wolves on his murals in the rotunda. The symbolism is relatively clear. All of the Haven's sequence and everything that happened prior to reaching Skyhold is sort of Inquisitor's "baptism" as a rising leader and counterpart and later counter-balance for the Dread Wolf.

 

Skyhold - I think supplies reach the fortress the same rout the refugees do, and likely it's not the same path that leads to Haven (I seem to remember that Skyhold guards the passage between Orlais and Ferelden). What happened in Haven and information about location of Inquisition's new headquarters seemed to have spread really quickly and people who believed that Inquisitor is indeed sent by divine power began flocking to it, and so did the goods. Later, we can negotiate deals with merchants through Josephine, and increase the flow of goods by securing roads (acquiring additional keeps and doing quests and war table missions that guarantee that). After WEWH Celene (dunno about other rulers) actually offers incentives to merchants who'd decide to travel to Skyhold. So it can't be a location as remote as Haven. Plus, Skyhold itself seems to be forgotten for long periods by everyone not necessarily due to its ultra-remote location, but because someone (the fortress belonged to Solas once after all) has ensured that people don't really remember much about it.

 

 

Bonus points for seeing the majority of the Inquisition's army camped at the bottom of Skyhold, in what looks to be a snow field. Sucks to be part of that army.

 

Possibly - though I assume that after capturing keep in Crestwood and Emprise du Lion, a large bulk of their forces can station over there, with forces at the camp moving in and out often. We can even secure quick routes from certain regions back to Skyhold.

[vbibbi]

The way I see it, DAO is about the PC winning against impossible odds. And not in the cliche movie quote way, but as in, it's actually unbelievable to have survived everything put in the Warden's way.

 

DAI is about being handed victories. We have less agency here, as we're given the Anchor, we're given Skyhold after losing our base, we're given leadership of the Inquisition (yes it's earned, but it's not like we had anyone to compete with), we're given an army and resources, and the advisors do the bureaucracy for us.

 

Both are power fantasies, just coming at it from different angles.

 

Then there's DA2, where we're given nothing and have to fight against the tide, making one step forward for every two steps back

[berelinde]

I'm not going to participate in the whole "The Inquisitor Was Rubbish" discussion because I enjoyed the game tremendously and because I don't have a problem with video game hand-waving (of any magnitude), but I do giggle a little when we get our first glimpse of Skyhold. There's this huge bridge complete with a portcullis... at the edge of a sheer cliff. What is that giant gate going to keep out? Mountain goats?

[midnight tea]

The way I see it, DAO is about the PC winning against impossible odds. And not in the cliche movie quote way, but as in, it's actually unbelievable to have survived everything put in the Warden's way.

 

DAI is about being handed victories. We have less agency here, as we're given the Anchor, we're given Skyhold after losing our base, we're given leadership of the Inquisition (yes it's earned, but it's not like we had anyone to compete with), we're given an army and resources, and the advisors do the bureaucracy for us.

 

Both are power fantasies, just coming at it from different angles.

 

Then there's DA2, where we're given nothing and have to fight against the tide, making one step forward for every two steps back

 

Not really - the way I see it DAO is indeed about overcoming impossible odds with the little we have, but DAI is about people who suddenly find themselves in a no less impossible situation and a sudden push into the position of official savior of the world.

 

And like - the one and only savior. DAO's problem was somewhat different in that regard: the Wardens were NOT the only Wardens in left in the world; it just happened that the Blight began in Ferelden and they were last remaining Fereldan Wardens. They scrambled to save Ferelden itself - if they failed, they risked the Blight spreading and becoming a decades-long terror that would eventually spill beyond its borders, but the world had other Wardens and power of still-intact Orlesian empire to at least attempt to push the Blight back.

 

Inquisitor was, on the other hand, the only known person capable of doing anything with the sudden tearing of the Veil - and it's a completely unique problem to modern Thedas nobody knew how to deal with. The "overcoming impossible odds with the little we have", or techniques against threats like Blights simply wouldn't cut it.

 

Therefore you can't just say that everything was "handed to them" - it was about dealing with a problem of a larger caliber with a backing of people, and not just through sheer luck or power of awesome of the hero. That in itself is a test for a protagonist: how do you deal with a situation like this? Do you let it consume you? Let it get in your head? Let advisers do most of the job for you? Or do you actually step up and become a leader?

 

Don't forget after all that Inquisitor can fail in that - oh sure, Inquisition will deal with problems (just like any Warden can deal with the Blight, no matter how much of an a-hole they were), but they may never inspire enough loyalty, or can cause more problems with their more short-sighted choices... and apparently that failure may or may no cost the world its future, judging that the series still hasn't answered us the question of whether Inquisitor will save the world or destroy it.

 

In any event - I can't help to be amused with the irony I see here: seeing sheer awesomeness of the Warden as something of an issue, because the fats hands them luck and chops to overcome the impossible, only to claim that the Inquisitor was "handed" everything, simply because they find themselves in no less ridiculous situation and go about dealing with a new problem (there were four blights before the fifth - there was never a situation like we've had in DAI in modern Thedas) with more realistic and balanced methods that involves more people than themselves and their inner circle...

[vbibbi]

Not really - the way I see it DAO is indeed about overcoming impossible odds with the little we have, but DAI is about people who suddenly find themselves in a no less impossible situation and a sudden push into the position of official savior of the world.

 

And like - the one and only savior. DAO's problem was somewhat different in that regard: the Wardens were NOT the only Wardens in left in the world; it just happened that the Blight began in Ferelden and they were last remaining Fereldan Wardens. They scrambled to save Ferelden itself - if they failed, they risked the Blight spreading and becoming a decades-long terror that would eventually spill beyond its borders, but the world had other Wardens and power of still-intact Orlesian empire to at least attempt to push the Blight back.

 

Inquisitor was, on the other hand, the only known person capable of doing anything with the sudden tearing of the Veil - and it's a completely unique problem to modern Thedas nobody knew how to deal with. The "overcoming impossible odds with the little we have", or techniques against threats like Blights simply wouldn't cut it.

 

Therefore you can't just say that everything was "handed to them" - it was about dealing with a problem of a larger caliber with a backing of people, and not just through sheer luck or power of awesome of the hero. That in itself is a test for a protagonist: how do you deal with a situation like this? Do you let it consume you? Let it get in your head? Let advisers do most of the job for you? Or do you actually step up and become a leader?

 

Don't forget after all that Inquisitor can fail in that - oh sure, Inquisition will deal with problems (just like any Warden can deal with the Blight, no matter how much of an a-hole they were), but they may never inspire enough loyalty, or can cause more problems with their more short-sighted choices... and apparently that failure may or may no cost the world its future, judging that the series still hasn't answered us the question of whether Inquisitor will save the world or destroy it.

 

In any event - I can't help to be amused with the irony I see here: seeing sheer awesomeness of the Warden as something of an issue, because the fats hands them luck and chops to overcome the impossible, only to claim that the Inquisitor was "handed" everything, simply because they find themselves in no less ridiculous situation and go about dealing with a new problem (there were four blights before the fifth - there was never a situation like we've had in DAI in modern Thedas) with more realistic and balanced methods that involves more people than themselves and their inner circle...

I'm pretty sure the "lead them or fall" tagline was pure marketing. We are not still waiting to see if any of our actions in DAI lead to a failure in later games.

 

Yes, the Inquisition is handed help. As you say, the Breach is a force which Thedas has never dealt with before, it's an unknown which has resisted all traditional methods of containment. So what happens? The PC is given...given the only method of closing the Breach and rifts. We still don't know what exactly the mark does or how it works; we just flail our hand into a rift and it eventually closes. Neither the Inquisitor nor the Inquisition spend any time researching the nature of the Mark or the Breach or even try to learn more about the Fade. All we do is military action, diplomacy, or espionage. None of this includes any kind of research or investigation.

 

If the Herald wasn't given the Anchor, even the Inquisition couldn't have closed the Breach or stopped Corypheus. And we were given the Anchor at the very beginning of the game. We didn't fight for it, want it, or even know what it was.

[Jigglypuff]

Understand I do not.

[Nixou]

Not arguing the awesomesauce annoyingness the Warden gains. Personally, I never want to see the Warden ever again or have them pop up again in casual dialogue in future games.

 

 

To be fair, the writers seem to be aware of what you call the Warden's "awesomesauce annoyingness", and did a fairly good job in mitigating the character's sueness in the sequels: The Architect accidentally kickstarting the fifth blight too soon may explains why the Horde was defeated in one short year, Anders -the Warden's protégé- blowing up the Chantry showed that the Hero of Ferelden can mess things up, and the fact that Ferelden has yet to heal from the Blight during Inquisition shows that the HoF slaying the Archdemon didn't magically fix everything.

 

Still, ironically, the "awesomesauce annoyingness" is the reason I, for one, wish they eventually bring back the Warden... in order to drop an anvil on him/her and kill the character for good: show that the "great hero" isn't that unstoppable.

[midnight tea]

I'm pretty sure the "lead them or fall" tagline was pure marketing. We are not still waiting to see if any of our actions in DAI lead to a failure in later games.

 

It's doesn't seem to be just pure marketing, seeing how often the question is reverberated throughout the game itself, in more or less subtle forms... most noticeably at the beginning of the game, when Mother Giselle says that Inquisitor may yet build a force that will save or destroy us. The ghost of Divine Justinia (or whatever she is) in Adamant warns us about this too - our decisions "move mountains", and the question whether we yet become hero or not remains to be answered.

 

And then, of course, is Trespasser and it's clear implication that the story of Inquisitor isn't yet done.

 

Yes, the Inquisition is handed help. As you say, the Breach is a force which Thedas has never dealt with before, it's an unknown which has resisted all traditional methods of containment. So what happens? The PC is given...given the only method of closing the Breach and rifts. We still don't know what exactly the mark does or how it works; we just flail our hand into a rift and it eventually closes. Neither the Inquisitor nor the Inquisition spend any time researching the nature of the Mark or the Breach or even try to learn more about the Fade. All we do is military action, diplomacy, or espionage. None of this includes any kind of research or investigation.

 

If the Herald wasn't given the Anchor, even the Inquisition couldn't have closed the Breach or stopped Corypheus. And we were given the Anchor at the very beginning of the game. We didn't fight for it, want it, or even know what it was.

 

If the Warden isn't initiated into the order, which effectively gives them the power to slay the Archdemon (one of only two people having such power in the immediate area) and then were handed treaties that allow them to get help from anyone, do you think DAO would even bother following them as a protagonist? The whole point of being a hero is that for one reason or another they're capable of achieving something others can't.

 

What's more, the two remaining Fereldan wardens are barely initiates - HOF has merely survived the Joining, and Alistair has been a Warden for paltry half a year, and he himself doesn't tell us anything crucial. It's revealed how Wardens can stop the Archdemon only much later in the game - and way, waaaay later than I assume the Fereldan Wardens would get important answers from Orlesian Wardens or Weishaupt, which they totally had time to contact during the campaign, as it is implied that things happen in a span of at least few months (if I remember correctly Wynne says at one point that it's been almost a year since Ostagar.)

 

So the fact that Inquisitor's given this power at the very beginning of the game is a moot point - acquiring the Mark is merely something that makes them inexpendable (no matter of race or background, which would be a very tough sell otherwise), but they don't start the game as leaders of the Inquisition, do they? The first missions that are available to us are pretty menial jobs or PR stunts, basically, because that's basically what Herald of Andraste initially is - a mascot, a magnet for the faithful and a political tool for advisers, who defacto lead Inquisition prior to Skyhold. They earn the title of Inquisitor only after they manage to secure alliance with Mages or Templars, and the destruction of Haven, when they decide to face Corypheus, while giving others time to flee. And they earn further recognition, power and loyalty only later on, depending on their actions and choices.

 

In other words, in terms of with the protagonist being handed the mysterious tools to handle the crisis there's not much difference between DAO and DAI - without them, they wouldn't be able to do much, or likely wouldn't even be protagonists. It's the details that differ.

 

Also - it's completely untrue that the Inquisition does nothing to research the nature of the Mark of the Breach, or learn more about the Fade. What do you think Solas or Cole is there for, among others? How much people learn from him about the Fade depends entirely on the Inquisitor - or how much they choose to believe them. At the very same time Solas can't say everything to them, either because it would reveal himself, or because he genuinely has no answers. It seems that even to him the fact that Inquisitor survived and can use the Mark to extent that they did is a surprise. 

 

Him - the proper owner of the Anchor - said to us directly in the Fade that he searched for answers, yet found nothing. Both the Mark and it's acquisition by a mortal appears to be a unique precedent that baffles even its creator, that himself hails from a world long lost and forgotten and has explored the Fade more than anyone else alive.

 

So what could mere mortals discover?

 

And yet, we can hire Dagna and use her for research, as well as Helsima and Minaeve we can use to study effect of rifts on the world. We have a whole slew of side quests and missions that are focused on magical investigation - be it the Fade, dragons, unusual magic, scouring the elvhen ruins Corypheus is so interested with, as well as investigating them to uncover elvhen mysteries for ourselves. Studying the Fade and non-mundane things is also the reason why Morrigan is sent to Skyhold.

 

Heck, the Arcane Knowledge Perk itself gives Inquisitor options and abilities that suggest they spent time himself/herself studying arcane mysteries.

 

Therefore the claim that they're doing nothing to study the Fade or the Anchor is simply false - they definitely do more of it than, it appears, the Grey Wardens as a whole seem to do research on the nature of the Blight or Fade (HOF definitely doesn't do much of it on their own, even if they themselves are at least justified due to lack of resources), through all of the time the order has existed.

[vbibbi]

It's doesn't seem to be just pure marketing, seeing how often the question is reverberated throughout the game itself, in more or less subtle forms... most noticeably at the beginning of the game, when Mother Giselle says that Inquisitor may yet build a force that will save or destroy us. The ghost of Divine Justinia (or whatever she is) in Adamant warns us about this too - our decisions "move mountains", and the question whether we yet become hero or not remains to be answered.
 
And then, of course, is Trespasser and it's clear implication that the story of Inquisitor isn't yet done.
 

 
If the Warden isn't initiated into the order, which effectively gives them the power to slay the Archdemon (one of only two people having such power in the immediate area) and then were handed treaties that allow them to get help from anyone, do you think DAO would even bother following them as a protagonist? The whole point of being a hero is that for one reason or another they're capable of achieving something others can't.

The HOF is only made a Warden after proving themselves capable in their origin, and performing the tests of getting darkspawn blood and the treaties. That required going into a dangerous swamp made more dangerous with darkspawn roaming and a potential archdemon around. Plus there's the risk of not surviving the Joining. That is much more earned than "what's going on here?" And picking up a ball.
 

Also - it's completely untrue that the Inquisition does nothing to research the nature of the Mark of the Breach, or learn more about the Fade. What do you think Solas or Cole is there for, among others? How much people learn from him about the Fade depends entirely on the Inquisitor - or how much they choose to believe them. At the very same time Solas can't say everything to them, either because it would reveal himself, or because he genuinely has no answers. It seems that even to him the fact that Inquisitor survived and can use the Mark to extent that they did is a surprise. 

I don't remember either investigating the nature of the Fade through conversation or assigning Solas or Cole to research the Fade on the war table. There is one war table mission where Solas researches eluvians, but obviously he's not actually going to "discover" and report anything. I asked Solas about the Fade and he gave me vignettes of stories he had seen, not a metaphysical in depth view. And Cole only tells us about his unique view of the world, he doesn't seem to know more about the Fade than any mortal. He's just from the other side of the Veil.
 

Him - the proper owner of the Anchor - said to us directly in the Fade that he searched for answers, yet found nothing. Both the Mark and it's acquisition by a mortal appears to be a unique precedent that baffles even its creator, that himself hails from a world long lost and forgotten and has explored the Fade more than anyone else alive.
 
So what could mere mortals discover?

Um, Solas has deceived us since we've known him and constantly lied about his knowledge of the Anchor and the nature of the Veil. Why would we assume he has been honest with us about the Fade, what little he's told us?
 

And yet, we can hire Dagna and use her for research, as well as Helsima and Minaeve we can use to study effect of rifts on the world. We have a whole slew of side quests and missions that are focused on magical investigation - be it the Fade, dragons, unusual magic, scouring the elvhen ruins Corypheus is so interested with, as well as investigating them to uncover elvhen mysteries for ourselves. Studying the Fade and non-mundane things is also the reason why Morrigan is sent to Skyhold.
 
Heck, the Arcane Knowledge Perk itself gives Inquisitor options and abilities that suggest they spent time himself/herself studying arcane mysteries.

True, there are the war table missions investigating the affects of rifts on their environment. AFAIK, there are no other missions to investigate the Fade or Veil. There's researching Cory's ancestry, the Well, eluvians, dragon physiology, but not the Anchor or the Fade. I think we should have had more opportunities to look for more information, even if the research didn't yield results.
 

Therefore the claim that they're doing nothing to study the Fade or the Anchor is simply false - they definitely do more of it than, it appears, the Grey Wardens as a whole seem to do research on the nature of the Blight or Fade (HOF definitely doesn't do much of it on their own, even if they themselves are at least justified due to lack of resources), through all of the time the order has existed.

The HOF can ask Avernus to continue his research. And apparently is now off searching for a cure to the Calling. And the novel Last Flight shows that Wardens have looked into research and experimentation on the taint, it backfired and weakened them considerably. So I would guess they're hesitant to commit more resources to research that could potentially backfire. And we still don't know if the Architect/awakened darkspawn are allied with some of the Wardens and if they're working together to find a solution to the Blight.

I think the HOF can be excused for not doing more research on the taint during the year they're trying to stop the Blight. They are fighting for survival and to unite allies to fight. There's no time or resources for research. The Inquisition is supposed to investigate and discover who is behind the Breach, the nature of the Breach and how to close it. Why can't we use our organizational resources to conduct research behind the cause of the Breach? We mostly act as a military and diplomatic organization which happens to stumble upon lost history in its journeys.

[BlazingSpeed]

Thus far, every conflict we've faced in the series stems from ideas introduced in Origins itself, from the tension between mages and Templars to the Qunari. Dragon Age would grow rather stale if everything was about the darkspawn. They are simply not that interesting in and of themselves. 

 

 

The architect and Awakening in general were very interesting well before Bioware went and replaced him with Cory anyways...it's the same situation with the darkspawn makeover and leaving out the taint effect (even a poison AOE for each Darkspawn in game would have been better than nothing...).