103 réponses à ce sujet

[Apasas]

Isaantia wrote...

I totally agree with you about feeling rushed. As the end of the book became thinner and thinner I kept thinking - wth we have a long way to go to get to the throne - then suddenty 2 years passed, then 3. I guess thats one way to do it.
;D

Yes it seemed to get condensed in the end. This was a shame because, the most significant battles at the end of the book were just brushed over.  i wanted to hear about Nalthur and his Dwarves smashing the Chevaliers in glorious gory detail. But instead it was just summarised.

What bothers me about Maric is the way he changes from being completely useless coward who can't seem to lift a sword to suddenly becoming a warrior King who fights succesfully in a major battle. I just didn't seem believable.  I think he was made to look too weak at the beginning.

Much was obviously inspired by Star Wars, and perhaps Braveheart. Amaric is Luke, Loghain in Han Solo and Rowan is Leia fighting for the rebel alliance against the (Orelsian) empire.

But I enjojed the book. it got better towards the end after the characters had been established. i will read the next one.

Modifié par Apasas, 27 octobre 2009 - 02:04 .

[Puppy Love]

Apasas wrote...

Isaantia wrote...

I totally agree with you about feeling rushed. As the end of the book became thinner and thinner I kept thinking - wth we have a long way to go to get to the throne - then suddenty 2 years passed, then 3. I guess thats one way to do it.
;D

Yes it seemed to get condensed in the end. This was a shame because, the most significant battles at the end of the book were just brushed over.  i wanted to hear about Nalthur and his Dwarves smashing the Chevaliers in glory and gory detail. But instead it was just summarised.

What bothers me about Maric is the way he changes from being completely useless coward who can't seem to lift a sword to suddenly becoming a warrior King who fights succesfully in a major battle. I just didn't seem believable.  I think he was made to look too weak at the beginning.

Much was obviously inspired by Star Wars, and perhaps Braveheart. Amaric is Luke, Loghain in Han Solo and Morgan is Leia fighting for the rebel alliance against the (Orelsian) empire.

But I enjojed the book. it got better towards the end after the characters had been established. i will read the next one.

Maric had the personal training of both Rowan and Loghain.  If after getting dedicated private lessons from them he was anything but BA in the end it'd make no sense.

Modifié par Faerieheart, 27 octobre 2009 - 01:48 .

[Apasas]

Shiroukai wrote...

Guess I'm the only 1 who prevers katriel over Rowan, her character had me in its hold, an cold spy that started to become warm-hearted and falling inlove. I was really downstrucked at the part where Maric killed Katriel, He shouldnt have killed her, cause the woman who betraited them was already gone, there was only a warmhearted Katriel now. he could have send her to the chantry to repend or w/e.

Actually I agree with you. I prefered Katriel as well. It was a tradegy that she died really and she could have been useful to the rebel cause.

On the other hand, it was not clear what to do with her. She has betrayed everyone and caused severe damage to Maric's cause before she switched sides. Most people would have been executed for what she did. Killing her made the story easier to finish.

But in general i found Kartriel more attractive than Rowan. Her character changed significantly as the story went on, even as much as Lohain and Maric. But Rowan didn't really change much as all. On the other hand, perhaps that was the point.

Modifié par Apasas, 27 octobre 2009 - 02:05 .

[Apasas]

Faerieheart wrote...
Maric had the personal training of both Rowan and Loghain.  If after getting dedicated private lessons from them he was anything but BA in the end it'd make no sense.

Well, i suppose thats a way to explain some of the change.

But I would argue it takes more than a little training to become a warrior. It also takes courage, which until the first battle, Maric showed none at all. In fact, there is a part in the book where it says Rowan believes Maric to be a good swordsman to hold his own in battle. I assume he was a decent swordsman before he and Loghain were found by Rowan.

I understand what the author is trying to do. He is trying to show how a man, who is honourable but lacks confidence, grows from being useless to becoming a great king. I just feel that his weakeness was over exagerated at the beginning.

But I just feel the jump was a little too quick.

[Quercus]

The jump wasnt really that quick, it might look that way because of the many "3/4/6 months later".

[Apasas]

Shiroukai wrote...

The jump wasnt really that quick, it might look that way because of the many "3/4/6 months later".

Not actually true. Just after Rowan finds Maric, her father informs him that the army is surrounded and in a despearate situation. It does not say there are several months between him arriving at the camp and his participation in the battle.

There appears to be no stated timeframe between Maric arriving at the rebel camp at the end of chapter 4 and the battle in chapter 5, but way Rowan's father speaks suggests there that the danger is imminent. So I would say Maric is in the battle within a few days of Rowan finding him at most.

Also, there is no mention of Maric being trained by Rowan or loghain. All it says is that Rowan knew Maric to be a better swordsman than he would care to admit. A skill he did not use before.

in the end, if the reader wants to believe there is several months between arriving at the camp and the battle, he/she is at liberty to do so. But that is not my understanding of the situation.

[johnny71181]

I finished Stolen Throne a while ago and I am just about to start The Calling. I found some very interesting discussion here, but still have a few questions.



I reread 261-3 in TST to try to get some insight into Loghain's actions in the game, but that didn't really help me, other than him saying that next time he would not come back to save Maric. Can someone help me understand how this part of the book helps us understand Loghain's actions in game?



Also, to refresh my memory, what did it explain what Maric had to promise Flemeth in order for them to escape the Wilds, or is this not revealed until The Calling?



Thanks.

[BeautyoftheBeast]

I'm not sure about Loghain's meaning in that (other than he abandoned Cailan during the game). But, in The Calling-- all that really gets revealed is that Flemeth told Maric about a Blight that was coming. Other than that, its up to anyone to guess what happened.

[spottyblanket]

I'm enjoying this book immensely and will get stuck into 'The Calling' soon. Is David planning to write anymore, he is such a good writer. Has has done any other novels?

[Unrefined-Nemesis]

From both books you'll learn that Maric's life was an elven orgy seriously.

[Willowhugger]

Great discussion guys.

I love the Stolen Throne.

I think a major theme of the book is that Maric actually has some pretty toxic influences on him in his ostensible friends. Loghain and Rowan could have married, Loghain would be a Teryn after the end of the Civil War and her father was gone by that point. Loghain, however, decided to be self-sacrificing when Maric was quite clear that attitude is stupid and it makes you stupid for pursuing it. Loghain is basically following Wynne's idea about the idea that only sacrifice matters when it just destroys you inside.

Maric doesn't love Rowan, so I don't see any reason why exactly anyone should blame him for not caring about her other than as a friend. He told her, exactly, that he considered her and Loghain friends when Loghain tried to leave. He considered it to be a political marriage and she never bothered informing him that she had different feelings for him than he did for her. Loghain never clued Maric in either.  The Hell that is Maric/Rowan/Loghain/Loghain's wife is entirely of Rowan and Loghain's making.  As for why Maric killed Katriel, I don't think he realized she loved him until after the fact and he hadn't just been massively played.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 10 mai 2010 - 02:59 .

[Addai]

Apasas wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...
Maric had the personal training of both Rowan and Loghain.  If after getting dedicated private lessons from them he was anything but BA in the end it'd make no sense.

Well, i suppose thats a way to explain some of the change.

But I would argue it takes more than a little training to become a warrior. It also takes courage, which until the first battle, Maric showed none at all. In fact, there is a part in the book where it says Rowan believes Maric to be a good swordsman to hold his own in battle. I assume he was a decent swordsman before he and Loghain were found by Rowan.

I understand what the author is trying to do. He is trying to show how a man, who is honourable but lacks confidence, grows from being useless to becoming a great king. I just feel that his weakeness was over exagerated at the beginning.

But I just feel the jump was a little too quick.

Maric was trained primarily by the Rebel Queen, and had grown up all his life a rebel warrior on the run.  When you see him in the beginning of TST, he has had to flee with literally only the clothes on his back.  But I don't get where you see an "exaggerated weakness."  Loghain is more the strategist (probably the role Moira filled earlier on in Maric's life), but the fact that Maric survived at all points to at least a hardscrabble courage in addition to extreme good luck.

[Addai]

Unrefined-Nemesis wrote...

From both books you'll learn that Maric's life was an elven orgy seriously.

Uh, a bit of an overstatement.  His first infatuation plus a brief affair some years later and both of them initiated by the women in question.  That qualifies as an orgy in your book?  LOL

[old book]

It was a book that showed signs that it could have been great, but was just OK. A shame. Hope David Gaider keeps writing books; TST and TC showed signs that he could eventually produce something amazing.



I wasn't impressed at all with Maric at any point in TST, and less so in TC. He was a boy, and stayed a boy. He was pretty much handed the kingdom on a plate by his friends, and spent most of his time whining and being "charming". He doesn't want to lead, doesn't want to be a king, doesn't really want to do much of anything. Even his choice to avenge his mother makes him sound more like a child than a man driven by vengance. I know Gaider tried to show him growing in the course of the novel, but he never convincingly grew into a Hero. The events in TC didn't help; they made him look like a spoiled kid who grew into a defeated jock.



Rowan loved him because he was pretty, and because she wanted to mother him. Loghain loved him because he was charming and humble, things Loghain wasn't used to. Those are nice qualities, but they're not Heroic (or unheroic), and not what a country needs most from a King. Loghain is much more a Hero and King, which is of course the role he pretty much takes.



I think Gaider was probably showing that Maric's relationship with Loghain, Rowan and Katriel was similar to the relationship that Alastair would eventually have with the Warden, and it worked. But it left me just not impressed with or liking Maric. I like Alistair more, but he's a supporting character.



You could argue that Loghain is the lead character and Maric his sidekick, or that TST and TC are Fantasy Fiction but not about heroes. Maybe so. Still, they didn't work for me.

[Willowhugger]

I think Gaider didn't intend for Maric to be a hero.



There's no heroes in the book.



He's just a man who tries very hard to pretend to be a hero, and succeeds.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea Loghain and Rowan definately were the lead characters for me. And I disliked how the romance between them was not expanded upon at all, rather Maric's childish infatuation with the elf was the focus and it was dull as hell.

I read it only for Loghain to be honest and Rowan grew on me. And while I like Maric, he wasn't that impressive and without Loghain, he would have been useless.

[Addai]

old book wrote...
You could argue that Loghain is the lead character and Maric his sidekick, or that TST and TC are Fantasy Fiction but not about heroes. Maybe so. Still, they didn't work for me.

I couldn't disagree more.  I think the point was to show that neither Loghain nor Maric would have become much of anything without the other.  Without Maric and Rowan, Loghain would have burned out on vengeance long before we see him do just that in DA:O.  Those two gave him the "cause" and the idealism into which he could pour his strategic genius and his anger.

I find it so strange that people think it would be more heroic for a man like Maric or Alistair to want to be king, i.e. to grasp after power.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 mai 2010 - 03:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I find it so strange that people think it would be more heroic for a man like Maric or Alistair to want to be king, i.e. to grasp after power.

It's called ambition. The stuff great men are made of.
It could lead to greed and power mongering (a la Howe). It could also lead to legendary and heroic status (Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander).

Yes, ambition can be heroic, as long as it's controlled and that's the whole point.  

If Maric chose not to be king, then he would have been a nobody and would not have had any heroic quality.

[old book]

I think a major theme of the book is that Maric actually has some pretty toxic influences on him in his ostensible friends.

Good point here. Maric could have been much happier if Loghain had chosen to pursue his own love for Rowan and let Maric know the full truth about Katriel. I think Gaider was going for themes of sacrifice for duty, and for Flemeth's prophecy that Loghain would betray Maric again and again, each time worse than the last.

Katriel is a tough question. I never liked the scene where Maric killed her. He couldn't keep her with him after learning that she had been in large part responsible for leading the army into a trap, but he also owed her his life. Nevermind love; reciprocity obligated him to let her live. If he'd ordered her execution without hate, as a matter of justice, that might be forgiven. But that's not how the scene was written. It was a half accidental murder out of a sense of betrayal. It felt out of character.

Maybe Gaider just didn't have time to lay the groundwork better. As it was, it came out of nowhere, and made Maric look even less heroic or kingly.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's called ambition. The stuff great men are made of.

We differ on what qualifies one as "great," apparently.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's called ambition. The stuff great men are made of.

We differ on what qualifies one as "great," apparently.

But history doesn't.
Most of those remembered as great hsitorical figures were very ambitious.

For instance my people (and the Spanish of today) praise Abd Al Rahman Al Dakhil (aka Falcon of Quraish) as a hero of legendary proportions (his story is almost fantasy like) and we praise him for his ambition. To ignore his ambitious nature would mean to ignore his whole story. And he was no doubt one of the greatest rulers and men of the Medieval ages and of Al Andalus.

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...
I find it so strange that people think it would be more heroic for a man like Maric or Alistair to want to be king, i.e. to grasp after power.

It depends on why they want to be a leader. In fantasy terms wanting to be a King in order to make the world a better place is Heroic. It's the journey from childhood to adulthood, from being led and cared for to taking on the responsibility of leading and caring for others. Maric never really makes that journey. He always wants to be led, and ends up as a poor caretaker for his kingdom and his sons.

Alistair's refusal to accept his duties and responsibilities shows what a really poor king he'd make, if your Warden wasn't there to be his Rowan or Loghain and take on the real responsibilities of leadership.

There's a counter tendency to say that wanting power proves you shouldn't get it, and it's a pithy saying. It only works if you're thinking of "Power" in terms of making people bow and scrape, rather than in terms of leading and doing good.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's called ambition. The stuff great men are made of.

We differ on what qualifies one as "great," apparently.

But history doesn't.
Most of those remembered as great hsitorical figures were very ambitious.
 

And history remembers many of those as ruthless, too.  It doesn't follow that just because they were powerful, that they were worthy of their renown.

There's a tradition in the ancient Christian church that the man who wanted to be bishop was considered the least qualified.  The man who serves out of self-sacrifice and duty is greater than the one who does so out of personal ambition or greed for power.

[Addai]

old book wrote...

Alistair's refusal to accept his duties and responsibilities shows what a really poor king he'd make, if your Warden wasn't there to be his Rowan or Loghain and take on the real responsibilities of leadership.

What refusal?

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's called ambition. The stuff great men are made of.

We differ on what qualifies one as "great," apparently.

Maybe, or maybe we're just talking past one another. Without ambition you can't rise to power or lead, except (as with Maric) in situations where your friends or family choose to lift you up. Drive and ambition to build a better life, family, nation or world is generally part of being Heroic. Drive and ambition that lead you to abuse others generally isn't. But without drive and ambition, a character isn't a Hero. At best, he's a protagonist.