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[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It's called ambition. The stuff great men are made of.

We differ on what qualifies one as "great," apparently.

But history doesn't.
Most of those remembered as great hsitorical figures were very ambitious.
 

And history remembers many of those as ruthless, too.  It doesn't follow that just because they were powerful, that they were worthy of their renown. 

And many ofwhat we consider heroes and great men were ruthless. Heck, even Maric was ruthless at the end and that's when I started to like him.
Ruthelessness and heroism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Addai67 wrote...
There's a tradition in the ancient Christian church that the man who wanted to be bishop was considered the least qualified.  The man who serves out of self-sacrifice and duty is greater than the one who does so out of personal ambition or greed for power.

Which is why none of them are great, since none of them made any difference in this world. And no one remembers most of them.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And many ofwhat we consider heroes and great men were ruthless. Heck, even Maric was ruthless at the end and that's when I started to like him.
Ruthelessness and heroism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

No, and you do need a certain amount of ruthlessness to hold power, particularly in a feudal society.  It's really a matter of emphasis.

Which is why none of them are great, since none of them made any difference in this world. And no one remembers most of them.

That is entirely relative.  People of northern European heritage, for instance, don't remember or acknowledge your people's heroes.  If they are acknowledged, it might even be as nemesis.

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...

old book wrote...

Alistair's refusal to accept his duties and responsibilities shows what a really poor king he'd make, if your Warden wasn't there to be his Rowan or Loghain and take on the real responsibilities of leadership.

What refusal?

You have to push him into becoming king, and if you show mercy to Loghain (a mercy both practical and arguably deserved) he runs off on the eve of battle (unless you've hardened him). Everything he says and does in your quest together shows that he does not want to lead, to take responsibility, to grow up. That doesn't neccesarily make him a bad man, but it doesn't bode well for him as King. Of course, Gaider writes him some nice epilogues, but that's Gaider's POV. Personally the only epilogues where Alistair makes a good king that are convincing to me are the ones where he was hardened or where he's married to Anora, who has the desire to lead that he lacks (even though I dislike her as a character).

Probably this is getting too far from a discussion of the books now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Which is why none of them are great, since none of them made any difference in this world. And no one remembers most of them.

That is entirely relative.  People of northern European heritage, for instance, don't remember or acknowledge your people's heroes.  If they are acknowledged, it might even be as nemesis.

But they are remembered by their own people. Of course "heroism" will be relative depending on what perspective you look at it. But most great men and heroes remembered as such by their people were ambitious.

And yes, once upon a time, I am sure Europeans hated my people's heroes, especially during the Inquisition. But today, in Spain, Abd Al Rahman Al Dakhil and others are celebrated as great men (they even made a statue of him).
So eventually, history and objectivity can prevail over relativism, at least partially.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 mai 2010 - 04:25 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But they are remembered by their own people. Of course "heroism" will be relative depending on what perspective you look at it. But most great men and heroes remembered as such by their people were ambitious.

 

That's not always true, however.  Some who eventually become legendary had it basically thrust upon them by circumstances and then thrived in it and/or got lucky.

Getting back to the story, neither Loghain nor Maric are particularly ambitious for themselves.  In fact, Loghain has a harder time than Maric accepting a military command role.

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...

Getting back to the story, neither Loghain nor Maric are particularly ambitious for themselves.  In fact, Loghain has a harder time than Maric accepting a military command role.

Loghain refuses a title, and at first keeps wanting to get away from Maric and the rebellion and back to his old life (or back to look for survivors, another kind of responsibility). On the other hand, he's happy to lead troops into battle, and does eventually grow up, accepting promotion and fulfilling his new responsibilities. His ambition isn't for personal glory; it's to see his country free. He eventually pursues that with full commitment (and of course it leads to his downfall in DA:O, making him a tragic hero).

Maric never grows up. People keep praising him as a "good man", but that's not really correct. He's a good boy, which is something else. In the real world he'd end up a not very successful salesman, or at best an athlete. Being physically competent, charming and good looking are his main qualifications. He'd only rise higher if he had family connections (which is why he got somewhere in TST). Maric would be a good friend and maybe a good husband (if you didn't expect him to take too much responsibility for the kids), but you wouldn't promote him too high, and as a coworker you'd find him frustrating and kind of a screw up.

[Addai]

old book wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Getting back to the story, neither Loghain nor Maric are particularly ambitious for themselves.  In fact, Loghain has a harder time than Maric accepting a military command role.

Loghain refuses a title, and at first keeps wanting to get away from Maric and the rebellion and back to his old life (or back to look for survivors, another kind of responsibility). On the other hand, he's happy to lead troops into battle, and does eventually grow up, accepting promotion and fulfilling his new responsibilities. His ambition isn't for personal glory; it's to see his country free. He eventually pursues that with full commitment (and of course it leads to his downfall in DA:O, making him a tragic hero).

Maric never grows up. People keep praising him as a "good man", but that's not really correct. He's a good boy, which is something else. In the real world he'd end up a not very successful salesman, or at best an athlete. Being physically competent, charming and good looking are his main qualifications. He'd only rise higher if he had family connections (which is why he got somewhere in TST). Maric would be a good friend and maybe a good husband (if you didn't expect him to take too much responsibility for the kids), but you wouldn't promote him too high, and as a coworker you'd find him frustrating and kind of a screw up.

Oh, come on.  That's not even remotely true.  Maric accepts the kingship and rules well, he accepts a military command and commands well.  He does not even want to stay out of the West Hill battle except that it's forced upon him to do so (part of the guilt that he takes out on Katriel).  I have no idea how you can make such a contrast between Loghain and Maric based on the actual facts of the books, as opposed to prejudice about a certain personality type or leadership style.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 mai 2010 - 05:20 .

[CalJones]

I read both books and have to say it's the first time I've ever read books based on any sort of game. I found them very readable but like a lot of people, was dissatisfied by the ending of TST. I wanted to read about the great, climactic Battle of River Dane. I wanted to read about how Maric skewerd the tyrant king Meghren in glorious detail. I really didn't give a toss about the elf spy and Maric's revenge upon her mage master. To me, he was an incidental character, not worthy of being the climax of the book.

I'm guessing DG ran out of time - or at least, that's how it reads.

I will say, though, that Alistair is a lot like Maric - but also, Cailan is more like Maric than I had expected.

I'd agree that Rowan and Loghain are the more impressive characters in the book (and I missed both of them in the Calling).

[Willowhugger]

Good point here. Maric could have been much happier if Loghain had chosen to pursue his own love for Rowan and let Maric know the full truth about Katriel. I think Gaider was going for themes of sacrifice for duty, and for Flemeth's prophecy that Loghain would betray Maric again and again, each time worse than the last.

Really, given what we know in "Dragon Age: Origins" you'll always have to wonder if Loghain didn't hate Calian a little bit for the fact that he was Rowan and Maric's son. Also, for the fact Calian was pretty much Maric before the war hardened him. Loghain is so determined not to put "one man before the crown" that he ends up despising Calian just a little bit and himself too.

It's called ambition. The stuff great men are made of. It could lead to greed and power mongering (a la Howe). It could also lead to legendary and heroic status (Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander).

Emperor Claudius, Cincinatus, and a number of other figures also were equally great despite their lack of desire to pursue power. Napoleon and Alexander also destroyed their empires by overreaching.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 10 mai 2010 - 05:26 .

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...

old book wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Getting back to the story, neither Loghain nor Maric are particularly ambitious for themselves.  In fact, Loghain has a harder time than Maric accepting a military command role.

Loghain refuses a title, and at first keeps wanting to get away from Maric and the rebellion and back to his old life (or back to look for survivors, another kind of responsibility). On the other hand, he's happy to lead troops into battle, and does eventually grow up, accepting promotion and fulfilling his new responsibilities. His ambition isn't for personal glory; it's to see his country free. He eventually pursues that with full commitment (and of course it leads to his downfall in DA:O, making him a tragic hero).

Maric never grows up. People keep praising him as a "good man", but that's not really correct. He's a good boy, which is something else. In the real world he'd end up a not very successful salesman, or at best an athlete. Being physically competent, charming and good looking are his main qualifications. He'd only rise higher if he had family connections (which is why he got somewhere in TST). Maric would be a good friend and maybe a good husband (if you didn't expect him to take too much responsibility for the kids), but you wouldn't promote him too high, and as a coworker you'd find him frustrating and kind of a screw up.

Oh, come on.  That's not even remotely true.  Maric accepts the kingship and rules well, he accepts a military command and commands well.  He does not even want to stay out of the West Hill battle except that it's forced upon him to do so (part of the guilt that he takes out on Katriel).  I have no idea how you can make such a contrast between Loghain and Maric based on the actual facts of the books, as opposed to prejudice about a certain personality type or leadership style.

Maric runs off and leaves his kingdom and his young son in Loghain's hands because he wants freedom from responsibility and grief (The Calling). That's not the action of a good king or a good adult. It's the action of a boy who never grew up.

[Willowhugger]

Maric runs off and leaves his kingdom and his young son in Loghain's hands because he wants freedom from responsibility and grief (The Calling). That's not the action of a good king or a good adult. It's the action of a boy who never grew up.

In that case, you're incorrect.  It's the actions of a man deliberately seeking death so he can pass responsibility onto the man he thinks is better qualified for it.  He can't deal with Rowan's death, so he's leaving so that he can remove himself from the situation.  One of the ironies of Dragon Age: Origins is that it doesn't really laud the stupidities of the monarchial system.  

Alistair doesn't want to be king, isn't qualified to be King, and is perfectly responsible; it's just a responsibility that's innately stupid.

Maric is attempting to cleanse his grief by combat but if he dies, it frees the kingdom up from an incapable ruler.

[old book]

Willowhugger wrote...

Maric runs off and leaves his kingdom and his young son in Loghain's hands because he wants freedom from responsibility and grief (The Calling). That's not the action of a good king or a good adult. It's the action of a boy who never grew up.

In that case, you're incorrect.  It's the actions of a man deliberately seeking death so he can pass responsibility onto the man he thinks is better qualified for it.  He can't deal with Rowan's death, so he's leaving so that he can remove himself from the situation.  One of the ironies of Dragon Age: Origins is that it doesn't really laud the stupidities of the monarchial system.  

Alistair doesn't want to be king, isn't qualified to be King, and is perfectly responsible; it's just a responsibility that's innately stupid.

Maric is attempting to cleanse his grief by combat but if he dies, it frees the kingdom up from an incapable ruler.

Fleeing from Rowan's death was the "grief" part of fleeing from responsibility and grief. I agree that he wanted to die, though I doubt he admitted it fully to himself before talking with Fiona.

I'd say that Alistair is responsible within limits. He won't lead even though he has somewhat more experience than your charcater (not much, but some), but he's physically brave (as Maric was). It all falls apart for him at the Landsmeet, though, if you spare Loghain and Al's unhardened. At that point Alistair turns his back on his responsibilities and leaves you to face the final battle on your own.

Modifié par old book, 10 mai 2010 - 05:47 .

[Willowhugger]

Fleeing from Rowan's death was the "grief" part of fleeing from responsibility and grief. I agree that he wanted to die, though I doubt he admitted it fully to himself before talking with Fiona.

I just don't see it as responsible.  A man in no condition to rule who contineus to rule is a threat to the state.

[old book]

Willowhugger wrote...

Fleeing from Rowan's death was the "grief" part of fleeing from responsibility and grief. I agree that he wanted to die, though I doubt he admitted it fully to himself before talking with Fiona.

I just don't see it as responsible.  A man in no condition to rule who contineus to rule is a threat to the state.

Stepping down as king might have been more responsible than staying, if he had aranged a legal transfer of power rather than running away. Leaving his son behind was irresponsible no matter how I look at it.

[Willowhugger]

Stepping down as king might have been more responsible than staying, if he had aranged a legal transfer of power rather than running away. Leaving his son behind was irresponsible no matter how I look at it.

I don't think Kings have that option in Fereldan.  It's one of the main cruxes of the landsmeet really.  Loghain is a capable administrator and someone who could handle all of it better than Maric, so why not let Loghain actually handle it?

[Addai]

old book wrote...
Maric runs off and leaves his kingdom and his young son in Loghain's hands because he wants freedom from responsibility and grief (The Calling). That's not the action of a good king or a good adult. It's the action of a boy who never grew up.

And the darkspawn threat against his kingdom has nothing to do with it?  Remember that Maric is operating with some insight into the Blight (via Flemeth) that no one else has.  We don't know yet exactly what, but enough that he brings the Grey Wardens back to Ferelden.  The news that the darkspawn may gain access to knowledge of the whereabouts of the remaining old gods is hugely alarming.  Just imagine a Blight led not by one, but several archdemons.

[Addai]

old book wrote...

Stepping down as king might have been more responsible than staying, if he had aranged a legal transfer of power rather than running away. Leaving his son behind was irresponsible no matter how I look at it.

In that case Loghain is equally irresponsible, since he left his daughter to be raised by others in Gwaren in order to hold the chancellorship.

[Addai]

Willowhugger wrote...

In that case, you're incorrect.  It's the actions of a man deliberately seeking death so he can pass responsibility onto the man he thinks is better qualified for it. 

Where do you get the idea that Maric is deliberately seeking death?  Granted, it's been a while since I read The Calling, but I don't recall anything like this.  His world weariness also does not mean that he was not ruling.  It says that he kept himself in seclusion, but he was still acting as king, making overtures to Orlais for one thing.

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...

old book wrote...

Stepping down as king might have been more responsible than staying, if he had aranged a legal transfer of power rather than running away. Leaving his son behind was irresponsible no matter how I look at it.

In that case Loghain is equally irresponsible, since he left his daughter to be raised by others in Gwaren in order to hold the chancellorship.

Was Anora's mother dead at that point in the story? I remember him leaving his daughter with her mother, not with caretakers. That said, yup, that was Loghain running away, as Maric observed.

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

In that case, you're incorrect.  It's the actions of a man deliberately seeking death so he can pass responsibility onto the man he thinks is better qualified for it. 

Where do you get the idea that Maric is deliberately seeking death?  Granted, it's been a while since I read The Calling, but I don't recall anything like this.  His world weariness also does not mean that he was not ruling.  It says that he kept himself in seclusion, but he was still acting as king, making overtures to Orlais for one thing.

Iirc, Maric tells Fiona that he thinks he wanted to die before she and their adventure renewed his interest in life.

[Addai]

old book wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

In that case, you're incorrect.  It's the actions of a man deliberately seeking death so he can pass responsibility onto the man he thinks is better qualified for it. 

Where do you get the idea that Maric is deliberately seeking death?  Granted, it's been a while since I read The Calling, but I don't recall anything like this.  His world weariness also does not mean that he was not ruling.  It says that he kept himself in seclusion, but he was still acting as king, making overtures to Orlais for one thing.

Iirc, Maric tells Fiona that he thinks he wanted to die before she and their adventure renewed his interest in life.

That may have been an underlying or unconscious motive for undertaking a dangerous mission, but it's hardly the sole reason, as I noted upthread.

Edit to add: Recall also that what the Grey Wardens needed was a guide for that part of the Deep Roads.  Only two men in Ferelden could do this, Maric being one and Loghain the other.  If Loghain was the real power behind the throne as y'all are claiming (not that I agree, entirely), then Maric was doing the responsible thing by taking the risk upon himself.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 mai 2010 - 06:50 .

[jpdipity]

old book wrote...

Loghain refuses a title, and at first keeps wanting to get away from Maric and the rebellion and back to his old life (or back to look for survivors, another kind of responsibility). On the other hand, he's happy to lead troops into battle, and does eventually grow up, accepting promotion and fulfilling his new responsibilities. His ambition isn't for personal glory; it's to see his country free. He eventually pursues that with full commitment (and of course it leads to his downfall in DA:O, making him a tragic hero).

Maric never grows up. People keep praising him as a "good man", but that's not really correct. He's a good boy, which is something else. In the real world he'd end up a not very successful salesman, or at best an athlete. Being physically competent, charming and good looking are his main qualifications. He'd only rise higher if he had family connections (which is why he got somewhere in TST). Maric would be a good friend and maybe a good husband (if you didn't expect him to take too much responsibility for the kids), but you wouldn't promote him too high, and as a coworker you'd find him frustrating and kind of a screw up.

I'm not sure where you saw Loghain's motivation as "to see his country free."  Loghain accepts his promotion because of his friendship with Maric.  He calls himself a "fool" and "mad" for even considering staying.  He further states that he was "swept" up into a war that he "never" wanted to be a part of because of Maric's friendship.  Loghain on his own lacks motivation to do anything for Fereldan.

My impression was that all of Loghain's decisions were based on his friendship for Maric.  He stays because of Maric - not for vengence, not for Fereldan, not even for Rowan - only for Maric.  Loghain never says anything that makes him appear to be a Patriot.  He is for the cause because Maric leads the cause.  He dislikes politics and states that.  He disagrees with Maric about trying to get the other nobles to agree with their plans.  Loghain is an excellcent strategist, but he lacks the charisma, motivation and restraint that Maric possesses.  They needed one another to acheive greatness.  Neither one on their own could have had the success they had together.

As far as Maric goes, being charming and good-looking goes a long way in politics.  Having neither in a government where the leader is chosen will not get you far unless you take your position by force.  Furthermore, I wouldn't see him as a poor co-worker at all.  Maric sacrifices his own happiness and puts his life on the line for his duties.  As a co-worker, he would be the internally unhappy guy who is friends with everyone in the office and manages to get the job done.  He would be quickly promoted in many positions although Strategist would not be an area where he'd likely excel.

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...

That may have been an underlying or unconscious motive for undertaking a dangerous mission, but it's hardly the sole reason, as I noted upthread.

Edit to add: Recall also that what the Grey Wardens needed was a guide for that part of the Deep Roads.  Only two men in Ferelden could do this, Maric being one and Loghain the other.  If Loghain was the real power behind the throne as y'all are claiming (not that I agree, entirely), then Maric was doing the responsible thing by taking the risk upon himself.

1) I never said it was.

2) The responsible thing to do as a father and king would have been to order Loghain to do it (if anyone was going), and to send him along with enough support to guarantee his escape if things went wrong. A squad or two, Willhelm & Shale for starters. Maric snuck off in the night.

Maric was head of state and a single father; no spin can make running off into the Deep Roads with unknown and (at that point) untested companions into a responsible choice.

[Addai]

old book wrote...

Maric was head of state and a single father; no spin can make running off into the Deep Roads with unknown and (at that point) untested companions into a responsible choice.

About the father part, I agree.  Keep in mind Flemeth's prophecy about him.  ("You will hurt those you love the most.")

About head of state:  The situation at hand is hardly one you want to advertise.  Loghain would have known where he went, and carried on as usual.

But yes, Fereldan heads of state have a strange tendency of abrupt disappearances.  It seems we don't know how Maric died, either, or what he was doing on a ship.  Some Awakening epilogues have Alistair disappearing abruptly.  It is not unusual for a king to go on a military or diplomatic mission, but usually you'd expect an entourage rather than for him to be Secret Forces.

Let's not refer to "spin," shall we?  That makes it sound like you have a legitimate interpretation and others are just fluffing the numbers.

[old book]

Addai67 wrote...
Let's not refer to "spin," shall we?  That makes it sound like you have a legitimate interpretation and others are just fluffing the numbers.

Let's not get personal, shall we? You've been talking quite a bit about what you think are my biases rather than how you read the text. It's condescending, but then that's the internet for you.