18 réponses à ce sujet

[phishface]

The ideal: every attack is a crit, with high % bonus from high base attack %.

 

The reality: ~100% crit chance leaves my attack and % bonus quite low. Or, I get high attack and bonus, but <50% chance,

 

What have you found to be the best balance - which schematics and materials?

 

Thanks

[PapaCharlie9]

Why would 100% crit chance leave your attack and attack% bonus quite low? Do you mean because of material slot limits in gear? There are other ways to boost Attack%.
 
But in essence, I agree with you. It's not necessary to push to 100% crit chance. The tipping point seems to be around 50% crit chance. After that point, if you have to trade off between Attack% and Crit Dam%, mat for mat, prioritize Crit Dam%. 
 
From the damage formula, it's clear why.
 

final_damage = (base_damage * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - armor * (1 - armor_penetration))
    * (ability_multiplier)
    * (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)
    * (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)
    * (1 - magic_resistance)

Simplified: final_damage = (1 + (crit_chance * crit_damage)) * (1 + attack_bonus)

Now from just that equation, you'd think that it is always advantageous to boost attack% first, since it multiplies into everything else. BUT, it turns out that it is much more expensive, in terms of the crafting and accessories economy, to buff Attack% by 1 than it is to buff crit_damage_bonus by 1. It's hard to get an Attack% over 50%, but it is relatively easy to get a Crit Damage% over 50%, since you start with 40% default! In fact, you can get it up to 200% without too much effort.

Mat for mat and slot for slot, once you get over the tipping point of about 50% crit chance, you are better off allocating those slots to mats that give you +2% or more of crit damage than for a mat that only gives you +1% Attack%.

This is not to say that you shouldn't continue to invest in crit chance. There are other benefits, like Flow of Battle, where more critical hits means higher effective DPS. So when you can, boost that crit chance% also. For example, if you get to 58% or over, a 1.75% Dex/crit damage mat, like a Great Bear Skin Rug mat in a Utility slot, has an edge over a 1% Attack mat, all else being equal. Too bad you are not a rogue, or else you'd get the additional benefit of Attack% from Dex via Great Bear Skin.

And since Attack% comes from metal mats and Dex/Crit Dam% comes from leather mats (with one exception), you should choose gear that has leather Utility and Offense slots. Then, if you have no other choices, go for Metal Utility (Strength) and Offense slots.

This is why schems like the Superior Prowler Armor (9 Leather Utility slots) + Snoufleur skin (to remove the class restriction) and for 2H, the Warhammer (12 Leather Offense slots) are so popular. As a 2H, you'll find most of the weapons have Metal slots, but that's fine. You can find hafts and grips that give more leather slots. The Bound Two-Handed haft has 9 leather Offense slots.

Spend some time here http://dragonage.wik...apon_schematics and here http://dragonage.wik...rmor_schematics and good luck!

*The one exception is Avvar Cotton, which gives 1.75 Dex in Cloth Utility slots.

[phishface]

Thanks, that's very useful! I still have some questions:

 

1. Can you have critical focus attacks?

2. Why is ~50% ok for crit chance? Wouldn't 100% chance be better, especially if you can guarantee a critical thousand blades (hence question 1)?

3. Do you recommend any particular bow or dagger schematics and/or grips etc?

 

Thanks again

[PapaCharlie9]

Thanks, that's very useful! I still have some questions:
 
1. Can you have critical focus attacks?
2. Why is ~50% ok for crit chance? Wouldn't 100% chance be better, especially if you can guarantee a critical thousand blades (hence question 1)?
3. Do you recommend any particular bow or dagger schematics and/or grips etc?
 
Thanks again

I was editing my post when you were posting, so re-read for some additional info.

Bow? I thought you were playing 2H? If you are a rogue, you are much better off. You can boost Dex and get the benefit of both Attack% and Crit Dam%.

(1) Do you mean, is crit applied to Focus ability? I'm not 100% sure about all Focus abilities, but I believe the answer is yes, as long as the Focus ability boils down to a combat attack. For example, TC is just a bunch of auto-attacks + one Twin Fang-like finisher, so everything that applies to auto-attacks should apply to TC. That means Attack% as well, right?

(2) In a vacuum, of course 100% crit is better, but as you already noticed, everything is a trade-off. If you buff one thing, that takes away from something else, even if it is just crafting slots or accessory slots. What I meant by "tipping point" is when you should change the crafting priority (Attack% vs. Crit) when making trade-offs. If you want to boost crit to 100%, go right ahead. But run the numbers through the equations above and see if 100% crit chance is really giving you the highest effective damage. It may turn out that having lower crit chance but higher crit damage and attack% gives you a better result.

(3) My goal for a bow is Grunnsman's Bow schematic from the Black Emporium. There are others, particularly DLC options, that are better than Grunnsman's Bow, but it's an all around good bow for any rogue archer and all you need is a lot of gold to get it, no time-wasting quests or such. Any grip that gives you lots of Leather Utility or Offense slots is the one you want, there are more than one that is good.

Before Skyhold and at lower Tiers, I also like the Spiked Longbow, the Swan Bow, and the Templar Longbow.

[PapaCharlie9]

Here's a contrived example that shows that 100% crit chance isn't necessarily the best.

Suppose you have a choice between two load-outs:
(A) 100% crit chance, 100% crit damage, 30% attack%
( B) 66% crit chance, 140% crit damage, 55% attack%

(A) average = (1 + (1.00 * 1.00)) * (1 + 0.30) = 2.60

( B) average = (1 + (0.66 * 1.40)) * (1 + 0.55) = 2.98

[phishface]

Excellent, thank you. I understand now. I too use Grunnsman's - I haven't found a bow with more leather slots + a grip. I do think a grip mod is necessary, and makes it better than the dlc schematics.

[Wulfram]

The talent in the Double Daggers tree which doubles your critical chance is very nice, and means you don't really need to invest too heavily in crit chance.

Even if you're an archer its worth considering, since its not hidden too far deep.

[Aeratus]

Going too much of any one stat is going to have diminishing returns.

 

Another example of why too much crit is bad is that pumping up crit from 5 to 100% (with the rest being equal) only increase damage output by about 40% (since 40% is the base crit damage bonus). This is very poor in returns, since if all of those bonuses were +attack% instead, you would increase you damage by about 95%. (Warning: this is a contrived example and only applies to non-rogues, since rogue will have much higher than 40% crit damage)

 

Even the +attack stat has diminishing returns. For example, going from 0% attack to 10% attack (which is going from 100 damage to 110 damage) is approximately a 10% gain, but going from 90% attack to 100% attack (190 damage to 200 damage) is approximately only a 5% gain.

 

For inquisitor characters, the Bow of the Beresaad is probably better than the Grunmann's bow, because Beresaad permits you to increase +dex, which is usually more efficient than +crit. (Also, use this grip http://dragonage.wik...Grip_Schematic). I'm differentiating inquisitor characters from others, because the inquisitor reaches a higher base cunning than others, due to various stat boosts available in-game. 

 

But the best bow for most characters is probably the craftable Elgar'nan Enaste, since the exploding arrows property doubles the damage of normal hits. 

 

... there are exceptions in various specialty builds, of course. Artificers can benefit from a super-high crit% build because they have a passive that reduces cooldown using crit. The same applies to warrior, who have a similar passive.   

[PapaCharlie9]

The talent in the Double Daggers tree which doubles your critical chance is very nice, and means you don't really need to invest too heavily in crit chance.

Even if you're an archer its worth considering, since its not hidden too far deep.

It's called Sneak Attack. Good suggestion, though you have to be in a flanking position to get it.

[Arvaarad]

It's called Sneak Attack. Good suggestion, though you have to be in a flanking position to get it.

Does Sneak Attack require a melee flank (i.e. close enough to trigger the flanking bonus) or do you just have to be behind the enemy? If the former, yeah, it's situational. If the latter, that drastically changes crafting priorities.

[PapaCharlie9]

Does Sneak Attack require a melee flank (i.e. close enough to trigger the flanking bonus) or do you just have to be behind the enemy? If the former, yeah, it's situational. If the latter, that drastically changes crafting priorities.

Good question. I assume the former, melee flank, it's a Double Daggers skill after all.

[Dabrikishaw]

I have an Artificer with 100% Critical Chance and 145% Critical Damage Bonus. This was done on a save with Gaspard ruling alone so I don't have Mask of the Grand Duchess.

[Wulfram]

Does Sneak Attack require a melee flank (i.e. close enough to trigger the flanking bonus) or do you just have to be behind the enemy? If the former, yeah, it's situational. If the latter, that drastically changes crafting priorities.

Works at range, in my experience

[Arvaarad]

Works at range, in my experience

So someone with a 50% bow and Sneak Attack auto-crits as long as they're somewhere in the huge cone of space behind the target? And enemies don't turn to face archers as often. That sounds like it's more useful for archers than DW rogues.

But then, Pincushion is more useful for DW rogues than archers, so maybe it's just the devs being sneaky.

[actionhero112]

So someone with a 50% bow and Sneak Attack auto-crits as long as they're somewhere in the huge cone of space behind the target? And enemies don't turn to face archers as often. That sounds like it's more useful for archers than DW rogues.

But then, Pincushion is more useful for DW rogues than archers, so maybe it's just the devs being sneaky.

I am like 90% sure you have to be within a certain range of an enemy to receive flanking damage bonus. I don't think being at max range for long shot allows you to flank. 

 

Flanking is immeasurably easier to achieve on DW rogues, as they operate close to the enemy meaning it's easier for them to circle around. Because archers and other ranged classes operate at a farther distance from the enemy, it's harder for them to rectify situations in which they aren't flanking. 

 

Plus old faithful, hook and tackle into leaping shot, puts you in front of the target. 

[Wulfram]

I haven't experimented with extreme ranges. But you certainly don't have to be in melee range.

The easiest way to flank for long range archers is simply to move your tank. Though my archer was more short/medium range* and used Evade with the teleport upgrade.

*and honestly didn't shoot a bow much because Artificer

[actionhero112]

I haven't experimented with extreme ranges. But you certainly don't have to be in melee range.

The easiest way to flank for long range archers is simply to move your tank. Though my archer was more short/medium range* and used Evade with the teleport upgrade.

*and honestly didn't shoot a bow much because Artificer

 

I mean it's like 3 meters according to the mechanics thread, so it's pretty close to being within melee range.

[Wulfram]

I mean it's like 3 meters according to the mechanics thread, so it's pretty close to being within melee range.

Sorry, I wrote that unclearly and perhaps was misunderstanding you. You do need to be pretty close to get the 25% flanking bonus. But you don't need to be to get the double crit chance, or indeed to get any additional flanking damage bonus you've acquired.

[Arvaarad]

Sorry, I wrote that unclearly and perhaps was misunderstanding you. You do need to be pretty close to get the 25% flanking bonus. But you don't need to be to get the double crit chance, or indeed to get any additional flanking damage bonus you've acquired.

 

Well, that sounds magically delicious. Long Shot hits from so far away that enemies don't usually turn around, especially with Easy to Miss. That would mean there's a huge cone of free crit chance from range.