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[Ashagar]

Honestly I am indifferent to both the southern chantry which is right and partly right and wrong or partly wrong about others and the northern chantry of which we don't really know much about other than they view as Andreste as a prophet not the bride of the maker, they have male priests who can marry and that the original Tevinter Chantry was led by the Archon. I in general vastly prefer it to the Elven religious beliefs and I prefer both to the rather horrific Qun and old gods religion.

[Gervaise]

When the Chantry sticks to charitable works and actually follows the moral guidelines set out in its own Chant, it is okay.    However, much of the time it doesn't.    It helps maintain the status quo with the nobles ruling by "Divine Right", which is not mentioned anywhere in the Chant.   There is also the absurd contradiction in that they teach the Maker has abandoned the world, yet they constantly pray to him and expect him to intervene, becoming disappointed when he doesn't.   They teach that when the Chant is sung throughout Thedas the Maker will return, which is very convenient for forcing their religion on others, yet the much of the Chant was written down years after Andraste, yet more parts were added by rulers for political ends (Hessarian and Drakon) and probably even the Canticle of Shartan (to encourage elves to follow the Maker), then removed years later, again for political reasons.   A Divine took out the Canticle of Silence because it was too politically motivated by Hessarian and I wouldn't be surprised if the Tevinter Chantry did the same to the Canticle of Exaltations by Drakon after they fell out with the south.   We already know about why the Canticle of Shartan was removed.     Now, if Leliana is Divine, the Canticle of Shartan is being restored, but is this out of religious devotion or political expediency, to counteract Solas?    So even if I believed that the Maker would return if the Chant was proclaimed throughout the world, which Chant is he expecting?

 

According to certain codices you can find in the game, which are confirmed by the greater amount of history and the full text of the Chant in WoT2, the stories of Andraste's crusade contained in the  Chant bear no relation to the true history of what took place.    The real site of the Valarian Field must be somewhere in Nevarra or the Freemarches, since she was captured in a stronghold in Nevarra, not beside some pool close to the gates of Minrathous.     She was never an innocent girl, kidnapped from her home and taken north as slave in Tevinter, who escaped, fled south and became he wife of Maferath.    She was the daughter of an Alamarri warlord who was married to the chieftain of another clan to unite the two land holdings.   True she was taken by Tevinter slavers when they attacked her village but Maferath had to negotiate her freedom in order to keep the allegiance of her clan.       She had been receiving disturbing visions for years after an incident involving the death of her stepsister.   It wasn't simply the Maker being charmed by her beautiful song.     From everything in the history, the first time Andraste entered Tevinter proper, rather than just the extended Imperium, was when she was taken north in chains for her execution.      It seems pretty clear that Maferath's decision to cut a deal with Hessarian was done out of military strategy and political expediency rather than jealousy of the Maker.   Had he not done so and they had continued northwards into the heart of Tevinter power and the full might of the Magisters, it is highly likely they would have been defeated.

 

So all in all, my human characters are willing to believe that there is a Maker somewhere but not that he is likely to intervene any time soon or that he approves in any way of the Chantry.    To my elven Inquisitor, reading through the Chant and then listening to Solas, it seems to him that if anyone is the Maker, it is the Dread Wolf, since he was the one who made the Veil and banished the false gods from the world.     From what he has learnt of the old Tevinter gods, and what Cory says at the end when he cries out to Dumat "if you have ever existed", it would seem that their gods were either long before the time of Cory, since he clearly has never seen Dumat, or they have always only whispered from the Fade.    Therefore it is likely they were never more "gods" than the evanuris were.   

 

So he is sticking to the religion he has always followed, since he never prayed expecting his gods to answer, but has a set of beliefs he can follow and a history that has largely been proven true.   He'd rather place his faith in that than a foreign religion that seems to have been built on more lies and badly remembered history than his own.  Plus he only has the word of Fen'Harel that the evanuris were as bad as he says and thus far he has lived up to the Dalish tales of him as a trickster and god of misfortune.    The Dread Wolf is a real threat that his own "gods" warned about and following the Chant isn't going to help with that.     He is so glad he doesn't have to put up with being called "Herald of Andraste" any more; one of the few benefits of losing his arm and the anchor.

 

There is another interesting Dalish belief that always seemed a bit odd in the light of their tale about the banishment of their gods.    The elders teach that when they remember what it is to be true elves, their gods will return to them.    The disturbing part about this is that if Solas brings down the Veil, the true elves (in his eyes) will be restored and the evanuris will be freed from banishment.    One wonders how much influence (from the Fade) he had over this particular Dalish belief.

[SentinelMacDeath]

I do not mind the Chantry, it's quite intriguing. I do not support their lyrium leash on the Templars. Turning people into addicts is a big no no

[Dean_the_Young]

Overall, positive. It's flaws are the human sort that aren't unique, but the sort of politics that go hand-in-hand with organizations rather than inherent to the ideology of the religion itself. It stands a good deal better above in benevolence and care for the common people than most of its in-setting rivals, most of which are covers for mageocracies, and it's history, while not above criticism, has been largely beneficial- it's helped temper international relations for the common good, provides public goods and services, and has helped manage and mitigate more problems than it's caused.

 

The question isn't so much 'do you support it', but rather 'who else is worth supporting more'? Most other international institutions in Thedas don't even want to help as many people as the Chantry does.

[Mlady]

Wow Gervaise... you and I are very much of one mind on that. Well said!

[ComedicSociopathy]

All the positive attributes of the Chantry doesn't require that it be a religious organization with a doctrine that demands the conversion of everyone on Thedas. Then again, pragmatism and laziness in recent years has caused them to ignore groups like the Dalish, Avvar and the Natural Order and keep their religion mildly to themselves. 

 

Still not great though. 

[Dean_the_Young]

All the positive attributes of the Chantry doesn't require that it be a religious organization with a doctrine that demands the conversion of everyone on Thedas. Then again, pragmatism and laziness in recent years has caused them to ignore groups like the Dalish, Avvar and the Natural Order and keep their religion mildly to themselves. 

 

Still not great though. 

 

'Doesn't require' is an odd thing to say. Few things are organizationally exclusive- but who else in Thedas would do it if the Chantry wasn't there? Who else even wants to?

[ComedicSociopathy]

'Doesn't require' is an odd thing to say. Few things are organizationally exclusive- but who else in Thedas would do it if the Chantry wasn't there? Who else even wants to?

 

I suppose doing good deeds without the need of divine rewards in the afterlife isn't very easy to come back in most people, especially in a world ruled by ignorance and scarcity of resources.

 

Still, just because their currently doesn't exist an organization willing to do international level charitable works that the Chantry does doesn't mean that I can't hope for one. 

[Ashagar]

Well if nothing else even in the real world some of the largest charities are run by religious organizations, the catholic church does more charity work than any other nation and organization on the planet.

[TheEnigmousPretentiator]

I do not mind the Chantry, it's quite intriguing. I do not support their lyrium leash on the Templars. Turning people into addicts is a big no no

 

One leash for another, eh?

[ComedicSociopathy]

Well if nothing else even in the real world some of the largest charities are run by religious organizations, the catholic church does more charity work than any other nation and organization on the planet.

 

True. You'd still kind of hope that most people support those charities because it's just kind thing to do as supposed to doing it because scripture tells them to. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I suppose doing good deeds without the need of divine rewards in the afterlife isn't very easy to come back in most people, especially in a world ruled by ignorance and scarcity of resources.

 

Still, just because their currently doesn't exist an organization willing to do international level charitable works that the Chantry does doesn't mean that I can't hope for one. 

 

Sure. But until one does- would you support the chantry, or deny it support since it doesn't meet your social standards?

[Dean_the_Young]

True. You'd still kind of hope that most people support those charities because it's just kind thing to do as supposed to doing it because scripture tells them to. 

 

Perhaps they do- but scripture helps convince a populace that it is a kind thing to do. And it certainly motivates and channels people in a way that rarely happens without an institution.

[TheEnigmousPretentiator]

'Doesn't require' is an odd thing to say. Few things are organizationally exclusive- but who else in Thedas would do it if the Chantry wasn't there? Who else even wants to?

 

Who else aside from Andrastians would receive the social graces to engage in charity, let alone everything else you listed? Unless I am seeing self-fulfilling prophecies were none exist.

[Qun00]

All the positive attributes of the Chantry doesn't require that it be a religious organization with a doctrine that demands the conversion of everyone on Thedas.

To hell with requirements.

No one needs the permission or validation from other people in order to believe whatever they accept to be true.

[The Baconer]

I don't care for what it became, but then I spent a whole game slapping it around and gave it a new leader in accordance with my personal tastes. Now we get to watch and wait. 

 

Hopefully we can do the same with the older, better Chantry up north. 

[stop_him]

No.

 

The Chantry could be a cool place for everyone, but it is well established that the Chantry is a pro-human organization that uses religion to justify human domination and superiority. It can, and should burn to the ground.

[NoForgiveness]

From an out of game perspective yes. It's a reflective of our own society and humanity in a realistic way rather then our society the way some might want it. And I think that's wonderful.

From an in game perspective... no I hate it. I would've burned that place to the ground if given the choice.

[ComedicSociopathy]

No.

 

The Chantry could be a cool place for everyone, but it is well established that the Chantry is a pro-human organization that uses religion to justify human domination and superiority. It can, and should burn to the ground.

 

To be fair, Divine Leliana does change all of that, even going as far as being back the verse about Shartan. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Human society's racism existed long before the Andrastianism did, and the the Chantry doesn't really have edicts or doctrine that enforces domination over other races. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Human society's racism existed long before the Andrastianism did, and the the Chantry doesn't really have edicts or doctrine that enforces domination over other races. 

 

The Chantry does state that humans are much closer to the Maker then elves, dwarves or qunari. That doesn't mean that humans should dominate those other races, sure, but the Chantry being what is I'm sure that many within it would twist that claim to serve what racist agenda they had in mind. 

[Ashagar]

all the races and cultures in game have bigoted views of others groups, its hardly a thing unique to to humans in the setting and some people in those various groups are worse than others with their bigotry.

[ComedicSociopathy]

all the races and cultures in game have bigoted views of others groups, its hardly a thing unique to to humans in the setting and some people in those various groups are worse than others with their bigotry.

 

The difference is that humans have the military power and numbers to turn their xenophobia into actual supremacy over other races. The dwarves are rather likely that they mostly live in place that humans would be loath to conquer or even live in. Cannot really blame them though. 

 

Humans, elves, dwarves and qunari are ultimately a lot more similar as just flawed people then they'd be willing to admit. When it comes right down to it people are people. And people can be arseholes with a need to dominate those less powerful then them, and that's just not a human thing. 

[KaiserShep]

Honestly I am indifferent to both the southern chantry which is right and partly right and wrong or partly wrong about others and the northern chantry of which we don't really know much about other than they view as Andreste as a prophet not the bride of the maker, they have male priests who can marry and that the original Tevinter Chantry was led by the Archon. I in general vastly prefer it to the Elven religious beliefs and I prefer both to the rather horrific Qun and old gods religion.

Yeah, I imagine those priests to the Old Gods were real sons of b*tches. I mean, they sacrificed a boatload of people so they could break into the golden city. It's only fitting that they came back as horrible monsters. 

[Mlady]

Yeah, I imagine those priests to the Old Gods were real sons of b*tches. I mean, they sacrificed a boatload of people so they could break into the golden city. It's only fitting that they came back as horrible monsters. 

 

It was elves because of their blood if I recall. They sacrificed many elves to enter the already Blighted City and bring back the taint.

 

I keep thinking Cole's line about making bodies form the Earth means the idiot elves created the Darkspawn because they used the taint and lyrium to attempt it.