172 réponses à ce sujet

[GoldenGail3]

Meh. I don't really care. I mean as a player, I don't. My characters have other mind sets about the Chantry then I have.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chantry does state that humans are much closer to the Maker then elves, dwarves or qunari. That doesn't mean that humans should dominate those other races, sure, but the Chantry being what is I'm sure that many within it would twist that claim to serve what racist agenda they had in mind. 

 

The implication of the doctrine that non humans are further from the Maker is that they are all the more worth reaching with the Chant of Light, not that they are in some way inherently inferior. 

 

More importantly though, the clergy doesn't dictate the fate of elves. Policies like that are generally the purview of the secular authority of the nation. There have been very few, in any, examples I can remember of a religious justification by the Chantry for persecuting non humans on the basis of their race.

 

Howe certainly didn't perpetuate his abuses because that he felt the Maker wanted him to rape elves for instance.

 

Maybe there are Andrastians who do have a religious justification for racist beliefs and acts, but I don't think we've seen any in the games.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Its ghastly, but then the Elven "Gods", the Old Gods, and the Qun aren't any better. The dwarves religious beliefs are probably the least screwy, but their caste system is awful. So in summation - everyone sucks.

[AnimalBoy]

Yes i do.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, it is utterly incompetent and was source of problems in dai like mage-templar war and their efforts to bring down only guy that could close breach. Then their system to supervise and control mages was rather poorly done and lot of secuirty was compromised in order to give mages comfort and some freedom what unfortunately lead to a lot disasters we had to solve. Outside that it is good mean to indoctrinate people, sadly we can't take over the chantry in dai and establish proper policies concerning mages. 

[Forsythia77]

The Chantry mimics the real life Catholic Church a bit too much for my personal tastes.  I'm of the opinion that one does not need a church or a governing religious body to have a relationship with the deity of their choice. The Chantry also makes exclusionary rules that seem arbitrary to me at best.  There are plenty of Andrastian elves but none of them are in the Chantry hierarchy (at least not pre-Leliana as Divine). It just strikes me as unnecessarily exclusive and divisive.

[Ieldra]

How so?  There appear to be a great many stripes of Andrastrianism.  The Chantry is just the one that ended up winning.

It's about the story of the Black City which is at the core of Andrastian mythology. I object to the idea that there are powers we shouldn't aspire to, and that doing so constitutes hybris. I more than object to it, actually, since "stealing fire from the gods", figuratively spoken, lies at the core of my personal worldview as something that is fundamentally desirable to the point of almost being a moral obligation. In DAO and DAI, one of my characters shares that to a point. 

 

Also, I object to the idea that humanity as a whole is punished for the "sins" of a few, that's also a part of the same story. Any deity that acts like that doesn't deserve being worshipped. Well, ultimately no entity deserves that, but you get the point.

 

So you see, I really do have an axe to grind with Andrastianism as such. Which denomination doesn't matter much.

[Marika Haliwell]

As a Mage- faction lover? Of course I don't like the Chantry!

[sonoko]

Considering that I always play as a mage and (when Bioware lets me choose the race) as an elf - no, I don't like the Chantry.

 

Even though there are some decent people in it, its core is rotten. The Chantry is built on lies and racism, uses drug-addicts as its main military force and profits from slave labor (Circle mages are essentially slaves).

[Hazegurl]

I always play my characters as not being religious but for various reasons of their own.  My Cousland wasn't religious because as far as he was concerned, the Maker was gone.  A God that is gone doesn't care what you say or do.  And should have no bearing on the life you lead.  So he believed in the Maker but recognized that the Maker has split and therefore he owes the Chantry nothing. 

 

My Hawke was a Hippy Mage who expressed some belief in the Maker but just wasn't sure if one even existed.  He was more carefree about the thought.  There could be one or not and what did it matter to him? Not much. He liked hearing about the sister's charity work with the children of Darktown and felt as thought kirkwall needed more charity from the Chantry.  He did become more and more frustrated with the Chantry as the years went by due to the grand Cleric's inaction concerning the treatment of the Mages and the overall mess that was Kirkwall. And the only solution they seemed to have was the threat of an Exalted March.

 

My Trevelyan Mage IQ had no love or belief in the Maker, period. As far as he was concerned, the Maker could have been anyone.  He could have been an elf,  or just a mage.  He saw the politics of the Chantry, being from a devout family and saw it for the horse shyt it was.  He got special privileges from it, like freedom from the Circle, and that was appreciated. But that was as far as it goes. So when he was named "Herald of Andraste" he never outright denied it nor encouraged it. He saw it for the tool he needed to stay alive, and then later on to push his own agendas.  So when he lost the anchor, he still kept the Inquisition going because he never associated the running of the organization to the title nor the Chantry.  However, he will aid Vivienne under the disguise of serving the Chantry because their future interests are aligned. 

[Ashagar]

Considering that I always play as a mage and (when Bioware lets me choose the race) as an elf - no, I don't like the Chantry.

 

Even though there are some decent people in it, its core is rotten. The Chantry is built on lies and racism, uses drug-addicts as its main military force and profits from slave labor (Circle mages are essentially slaves).

 

Not everything the southern chantry is built on is lies, Andraste existed, they were mostly right about the seven Magisters and the first blight and both records and word of god states that the golden city was golden until the seven breached it, Cory even boasted how he walked the golden halls while also claiming elsewhere they found nothing but corruption and dead whispers.

 

The Chantries and Andreste for that matter also didn't make up the maker because the Maker is the ancient creator deity of the Ancient Northern Neromenians (who brought Maker belief to Thadas in the first waves of human tribes) and the later Tevinter Imperium.

[Yaroub]

No, it is utterly incompetent and was source of problems in dai like mage-templar war and their efforts to bring down only guy that could close breach. Then their system to supervise and control mages was rather poorly done and lot of secuirty was compromised in order to give mages comfort and some freedom what unfortunately lead to a lot disasters we had to solve. Outside that it is good mean to indoctrinate people, sadly we can't take over the chantry in dai and establish proper policies concerning mages. 

 

Agree, the Chantry's not firm enough for my liking.... such a shame we do not have an option to harden the establishment, it's disastrous where it's heading with the possible divines and the general atmosphere after inquisition.

[The Baconer]

Agree, the Chantry's not firm enough for my liking.... such a shame we do not have an option to harden the establishment, it's disastrous where it's heading with the possible divines and the general atmosphere after inquisition.

It's because people actually realized that hardening the establishment was an ineffective strategy. Such escalation didn't work in Kirkwall, and it didn't work the system-wide reaction to Kirkwall. It sabotaged the Circle's stability more than anything.

[Steelcan]

It's about the story of the Black City which is at the core of Andrastian mythology. I object to the idea that there are powers we shouldn't aspire to, and that doing so constitutes hybris. I more than object to it, actually, since "stealing fire from the gods", figuratively spoken, lies at the core of my personal worldview as something that is fundamentally desirable to the point of almost being a moral obligation. In DAO and DAI, one of my characters shares that to a point. 

 

Also, I object to the idea that humanity as a whole is punished for the "sins" of a few, that's also a part of the same story. Any deity that acts like that doesn't deserve being worshipped. Well, ultimately no entity deserves that, but you get the point.

 

So you see, I really do have an axe to grind with Andrastianism as such. Which denomination doesn't matter much.

thank you Bostrum

[Steelcan]

The Chantry is the best bet for Thedas.

 

The Qun and Imperium are tyrannical, the Qun much more so, the elves and their "gods" were barbaric.  The Chantry provides a much better life for the majority of its people, is a patron of the arts, and so on.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's because people actually realized that hardening the establishment was an ineffective strategy. Such escalation didn't work in Kirkwall, and it didn't work the system-wide reaction to Kirkwall. It sabotaged the Circle's stability more than anything.

It didn't work in Kirkwall because it was poorly done and executed in Kirkwall where templars where too soft or/and incompetent and their preformance left much to be desired, avoiding fact that idea of circle where veil was extremely thin is idiotic idea in first place.In the end all Meredith was able to impose is harsh methods but she was still bound by chantry/circle policies that were ineffective.

[Yaroub]

It's because people actually realized that hardening the establishment was an ineffective strategy. Such escalation didn't work in Kirkwall, and it didn't work the system-wide reaction to Kirkwall. It sabotaged the Circle's stability more than anything.

 

Weak structure result such acts, an indecisive divine sends one who shouldn't be in the body of the Chantry in the first place a one who's filled with heretic beliefs and shady attitude to inform a grand cleric to departure from Kirkwall yet the latter refuses to abide and declines the divine orders(not to mention Elthina was confused too during that time and handled the situation poorly with her efforts to keep balance between Meredith and Orsino instead of doing the right thing and throw all her influence with the knight commander).

 

And when it's all got screwed up Justinia preferred to settle... a rather foolish decision.

 

Believe me if BW would've given us more freedom in the events, things were to be different.

[Iakus]

It's about the story of the Black City which is at the core of Andrastian mythology. I object to the idea that there are powers we shouldn't aspire to, and that doing so constitutes hybris. I more than object to it, actually, since "stealing fire from the gods", figuratively spoken, lies at the core of my personal worldview as something that is fundamentally desirable to the point of almost being a moral obligation. In DAO and DAI, one of my characters shares that to a point. 

 

Also, I object to the idea that humanity as a whole is punished for the "sins" of a few, that's also a part of the same story. Any deity that acts like that doesn't deserve being worshipped. Well, ultimately no entity deserves that, but you get the point.

 

So you see, I really do have an axe to grind with Andrastianism as such. Which denomination doesn't matter much.

Point taken about the Maker turning away from the world.   Though entering the Golden City was the Second Sin.  The First Sin, the one that Turned the Maker away in the first place, was worshiping the Old Gods.Though that is a bit of a quibble, the Maker turning away from his creation is a concept that predates Andraste by several centuries at least.

 

However, you realize that the powers the magisters were after involved overthrowing the Maker, yes?  His response to them was essentially repelling intruders trying to break into his house, rob and murder him 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The way the Chant of Light describes the magisters breaching the Golden City makes is sound like the fact they they were turned into darkspawn was something they did to themselves by blackening the city.

[The Baconer]

Weak structure result such acts, an indecisive divine sends one who shouldn't be in the body of the Chantry in the first place a one who's filled with heretic beliefs and shady attitude to inform a grand cleric to departure from Kirkwall yet the latter refuses to abide and declines the divine orders(not to mention Elthina was confused too during that time and handled the situation poorly with her efforts to keep balance between Meredith and Orsino instead of doing the right thing and throw all her influence with the knight commander).

 

And when it's all got screwed up Justinia preferred to settle... a rather foolish decision.

 

Believe me if BW would've given us more freedom in the events, things were to be different.

 

Not exactly related to my post, but ok. 

[Uccio]

I don´t support the Chantry. I´d rather have the option to support the Old Gods, in the next Tevinter centric game and tear down the Chantry for good.

[The Hierophant]

The way the Chant of Light describes the magisters breaching the Golden City makes is sound like the fact they they were turned into darkspawn was something they did to themselves by blackening the city.

It's just the CoL holding the magisters personally accountable for their actions.

[BloodKaiden]

I don´t support the Chantry. I´d rather have the option to support the Old Gods, in the next Tevinter centric game and tear down the Chantry for good.

Seconded.

[QueenCrow]

Seconded.

Motion carried.  

 

Actually, I'm all for people of Thedas worshiping what they will, as they will.  Personally, I have no love for the Chantry and don't support any religion beyond acknowledging peoples' rights to personal choice.

 

Forced conversions are a no-no, however, and I'll gladly fight in that case.

[Bleachrude]

Er, why are people supportive of the "old Gods" who EXPLICITLY told their followers...

 

"Hey, if you want to get to the Golden City, just sacrifice a lot of slaves and you'll get there".

 

Really, THAT;S better than the Southern Chantry?

 

Its interesting to see ho many people whose characters don't believe in the Chantry given that typially, this was extremely RARE. I have always said that many fans of roleplaying games are intrinisically opposed to organized religion....