172 réponses à ce sujet

[Yaroub]

Not exactly related to my post, but ok. 

 

The templars in Kirkwall were lacking faith and determination and insufficient in their efforts at every level the same as the Chantry. the events were forced upon us in a swift act with little that we can do to change the situation to our preference, we didn't have enough access especially during DAI and the absent mage-templar war, the whole problem was concluded in a most annoying cursory way, it's the templars who monitor mages not the other way around, if they had concerted their action with a little bit of thought the outcome would've been less tragical for them, contact with other circles have templars enter their quarters and finish them in their sleep.

 

Now if we go to the supposed war, things if they were to be natural given the power of the Andrastic realm and the amount of their troops, templars would bathe in mages blood in a most awesome ritual.

 

But given the fact that most of the lore turned out to be rubbish, it's understandable that the Chantry failed in a ridiculous way, it's the writers who treat the chantry with disdain and a tendency that matches to some extent the typical stance toward such institutions, we look at the Chantry and it's two, one we only hear about and the other is formed of a weak body incapable of doing it's most basic religious duties, lazy bastards all they're good at is reciting the chant in Val Royeaux.

 

In Origins you annihilate Ferelden's circle and everything's great, Orzammar kills brother Burkel and the Chantry considers an exalted march...now that's hardcore, no doubt it would Cause all kind of problems but duty calls the chant must be spread to all the corners of the world right? So send an expedition across the ocean how hard that might be, you either discover life or not if they turned out to be stronger and more advanced than Thedas you're screwed if not preach the chant they don't accept it butcher their babies in the name of the maker-easier- go to Rivain and do something about the folks over there, just have them move their arses better the maker find them unimpressive too and replace them with another creation, the third one's the charm.

 

The fact is that the Chantry have everything at their disposal to succeed, yet they do not, it's because it's full of i might say non Andrastian folk, Justinia-Cass-Leliana-Viv, all of them unqualified and those who are they're branded as zealots, i saved Petrice and she promised help. where is she there's no reason to cast her away.

 

The way i see it after inquisition the Chantry should throw exalted marches left and right lest they go Extinct, but no we have pretty Lilly who want all kind of tolerance, Cass who wants the same to less extent, and viv who is a mage.

 

All i want is my exalted march against the elves, which is perfectly justified, where is it?

[Heimdall]

I have real issues with that supposed moral. Because, really, the problem was not doing your research ™ and blindly trusting in other disembodied voices on faith (the old gods, who even in the Chantry narrative spur the magisters onward). A little more critical thinking, and a little bit less faith and humility, and maybe the mess is avoided.

But in the Chantry version it wasn't faith that drove them to act but the offer of godlike power. They made the effort for entirely selfish reasons, so I think the moral stands.

[Reznore57]

But in the Chantry version it wasn't faith that drove them to act but the offer of godlike power. They made the effort for entirely selfish reasons, so I think the moral stands.

 

They were invited in the Golden City by their own Gods .

Cory thought his gods were living in there too , he was pretty sure he would find them in here.

 

The whole "religion" of the Old Gods was like this , people prayed and made some sacrifice etc...and they got some boon in return.Visions , teachings about magic , who knows what.

 

Really you can only blame them for killing slaves , in the context of Old Tevinter , the fade wasn't taboo , getting boons from your gods was normal , etc...

[Thermopylae]

In DragonAge the Chantry is their equivalent of Catholicism, and in DA2 it mostly is a source of reason and compassion within Kirkwall society. Of course there are exceptions and in DA:I they examine the basis for that belief and the history and politics of the Chantry. One thing I liked about DA:I was how the writers presented the early history of the Chantry (Andraste) to have the same feel as early Christian history, with similar ambiguity, in my opinion. 

 

I think there is a possibly unintended assumption that similar social processes will be behind the formation of major religions in general, with similar issues.

 

I ended up supporting Cassandra, and thus supported the Chantry according to Cassandra's objectives, despite my lack of faith.

 

 I think inevitably the player has to work with the Chantry, one cannot simply go "French Revolution" and use the Inquisition to remove heads of state and establish a kind of Atheistism as your states belief system, although if given the chance I would have, simply out of interest, to see what would happen in the game.

 Perhaps because the supernatural is in fact knocking on your door in the Thedas setting but also because doing so would inevitably be somewhat bleak, even with working social institutions the mob is, unreliable, the game does not present this as an option.

 

I believe Leliana represents the most liberal reformist vision of the Chantry, Cassandra is a reasonable compromise and Vivienne is the pretty face in front of a more dictatorial authoritarian approach that frankly leaves me uncomfortable, which is probably the writer's intent.

[Thermopylae]

The templars in Kirkwall were lacking faith and determination and insufficient in their efforts at every level the same as the Chantry. the events were forced upon us in a swift act with little that we can do to change the situation to our preference, we didn't have enough access especially during DAI and the absent mage-templar war, the whole problem was concluded in a most annoying cursory way, it's the templars who monitor mages not the other way around, if they had concerted their action with a little bit of thought the outcome would've been less tragical for them, contact with other circles have templars enter their quarters and finish them in their sleep.

 

Now if we go to the supposed war, things if they were to be natural given the power of the Andrastic realm and the amount of their troops, templars would bathe in mages blood in a most awesome ritual.

 

But given the fact that most of the lore turned out to be rubbish, it's understandable that the Chantry failed in a ridiculous way, it's the writers who treat the chantry with disdain and a tendency that matches to some extent the typical stance toward such institutions, we look at the Chantry and it's two, one we only hear about and the other is formed of a weak body incapable of doing it's most basic religious duties, lazy bastards all they're good at is reciting the chant in Val Royeaux.

 

In Origins you annihilate Ferelden's circle and everything's great, Orzammar kills brother Burkel and the Chantry considers an exalted march...now that's hardcore, no doubt it would Cause all kind of problems but duty calls the chant must be spread to all the corners of the world right? So send an expedition across the ocean how hard that might be, you either discover life or not if they turned out to be stronger and more advanced than Thedas you're screwed if not preach the chant they don't accept it butcher their babies in the name of the maker-easier- go to Rivain and do something about the folks over there, just have them move their arses better the maker find them unimpressive too and replace them with another creation, the third one's the charm.

 

The fact is that the Chantry have everything at their disposal to succeed, yet they do not, it's because it's full of i might say non Andrastian folk, Justinia-Cass-Leliana-Viv, all of them unqualified and those who are they're branded as zealots, i saved Petrice and she promised help. where is she there's no reason to cast her away.

 

The way i see it after inquisition the Chantry should throw exalted marches left and right lest they go Extinct, but no we have pretty Lilly who want all kind of tolerance, Cass who wants the same to less extent, and viv who is a mage.

 

All i want is my exalted march against the elves, which is perfectly justified, where is it?

 

The problem with this idea is that I think a March represents a significant disruption to normal life, by doing so you are putting your citizens, the people that trust you have their best interests at heart, in danger. Also there is a ethical issue as well, I am unsure of the values that the Chantry teaches but I am assuming that it teaches compassion. People of different faiths when not put into situations of competition or conflict tend to reach some kind compromise as people do, as part of normal life. Of course history is full of evidence of pogroms and crusades but perhaps these represent anomalies in the normal day to day life (this assumption is perhaps questionable) and does it apply to the Thedas setting?

[The Baconer]

The templars in Kirkwall were lacking faith and determination and insufficient in their efforts at every level the same as the Chantry. the events were forced upon us in a swift act with little that we can do to change the situation to our preference, we didn't have enough access especially during DAI and the absent mage-templar war, the whole problem was concluded in a most annoying cursory way, it's the templars who monitor mages not the other way around, if they had concerted their action with a little bit of thought the outcome would've been less tragical for them, contact with other circles have templars enter their quarters and finish them in their sleep.

 

Now if we go to the supposed war, things if they were to be natural given the power of the Andrastic realm and the amount of their troops, templars would bathe in mages blood in a most awesome ritual.

 

But given the fact that most of the lore turned out to be rubbish, it's understandable that the Chantry failed in a ridiculous way, it's the writers who treat the chantry with disdain and a tendency that matches to some extent the typical stance toward such institutions, we look at the Chantry and it's two, one we only hear about and the other is formed of a weak body incapable of doing it's most basic religious duties, lazy bastards all they're good at is reciting the chant in Val Royeaux.

 

In Origins you annihilate Ferelden's circle and everything's great, Orzammar kills brother Burkel and the Chantry considers an exalted march...now that's hardcore, no doubt it would Cause all kind of problems but duty calls the chant must be spread to all the corners of the world right? So send an expedition across the ocean how hard that might be, you either discover life or not if they turned out to be stronger and more advanced than Thedas you're screwed if not preach the chant they don't accept it butcher their babies in the name of the maker-easier- go to Rivain and do something about the folks over there, just have them move their arses better the maker find them unimpressive too and replace them with another creation, the third one's the charm.

 

The fact is that the Chantry have everything at their disposal to succeed, yet they do not, it's because it's full of i might say non Andrastian folk, Justinia-Cass-Leliana-Viv, all of them unqualified and those who are they're branded as zealots, i saved Petrice and she promised help. where is she there's no reason to cast her away.

 

The way i see it after inquisition the Chantry should throw exalted marches left and right lest they go Extinct, but no we have pretty Lilly who want all kind of tolerance, Cass who wants the same to less extent, and viv who is a mage.

 

All i want is my exalted march against the elves, which is perfectly justified, where is it?

 

Well. 

 

I am quite content in the failure of the Chantry you envision. 

[Iakus]

They were invited in the Golden City by their own Gods .

Cory thought his gods were living in there too , he was pretty sure he would find them in here.

 

The whole "religion" of the Old Gods was like this , people prayed and made some sacrifice etc...and they got some boon in return.Visions , teachings about magic , who knows what.

 

Really you can only blame them for killing slaves , in the context of Old Tevinter , the fade wasn't taboo , getting boons from your gods was normal , etc...

The Golden City was always considered to be the home of "The Maker" even to Tevinter, though they did not worship him.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I do not support the Chantry. Too much bs.

However, I do like their charity work.

The Paragon thing the dwarves do is very appealing. Giving people role models and feats to aspire to and even surpass.

Worshipping some nonexistent being is a waste of effort.

The Old Gods may have been horrible but at least they spoke to their believers and did stuff for them. Worshipping them makes sense in that regard. Kolgrim and his people may have been crazy cultists but at least their "Andraste" was an actual living being that granted them power.

[Reznore57]

The Golden City was always considered to be the home of "The Maker" even to Tevinter, though they did not worship him.

 

I'm not so sure , it doesn't fit with Cory thinking even his own Gods aren't real ...if he thought it was the home of the Maker , a god he didn't care about...I don't know why he's having a massive crisis of faith related to the Golden City in DAI.

[Ieldra]

The Golden City was always considered to be the home of "The Maker" even to Tevinter, though they did not worship him.

I contest that. Do you have a source?

 

BTW, early human civilization predates the Veil, including the tribes that would eventually make up Tevinter.

[Treacherous J Slither]

The Golden City was always considered to be the home of "The Maker" even to Tevinter, though they did not worship him.

I can't help but question the concept of a "Golden City" built by the Maker.

He's omnipotent isn't he? What does he need a bunch of buildings for? What is the purpose of this city? The Fade creatures don't need buildings either. No need to shelter themselves from the elements. They aren't social creatures either as far as I can tell and have no need to band together for survival.

It just sounds so absolutely ridiculous that I can't help but laugh at the idea of anyone taking it seriously let alone trying to spread it and even shedding blood over it.

[Hazegurl]

@Iakus, The Old Gods were in the Golden City.  Only the Chantry claim that it was the home of the Maker.

 

"In -2800 Ancient the Old Gods, including Dumat, began whispering to humanity from the Golden City."

 

"Like the other Old Gods, Dumat endorsed the ancient Tevinter Magisters attempt to reach the Golden City and spoke to the High Priest of Dumat, Sethius Amladaris who used the alias, "The Conductor of Silence" and told them to join in the endeavour." http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dumat

 

It seems to me as though the Old Gods also lived in the Golden City, even though the Chantry does a good job of evading that fact by claiming that they were "Old spirits across the veil".   The Chantry claims that the Maker imprisoned the Old Gods underground for usurping his worshipers.  But that underground location is a physical place in Thedas which means that they couldn't have been imprisoned on Thedas when the Magisters attempted to reach the Golden City.  Unless there is a time gap between when the Old Gods whispered to the Magisters and aided in planning the trip and the Magisters attempt to actually enter it. if I were to make any sense out of this story, then I would say that perhaps the Maker (Most likely another Old God) found out about the trip and disapproved and imprisoned the other Old Gods on Thedas.  So when the Magisters finally made it to the Golden City, the Maker corrupted it and them, and left. The Old Gods continued to whisper to the Magisters, but this time to free them from their prisons and whenever one attempts to do so they corrupt the Old God and start a Blight.

 

This is probably why Cory remembers the Golden Halls.  The trip was a success and the halls weren't corrupted from them just touching it (as I think the Chantry implies), but that it was corrupted on purpose after they got there.

[Iakus]

I contest that. Do you have a source?

 

David Gaider himself:

 

http://forum.bioware...e-3#entry508158

 

"The people of Tevinter were aware of the Golden City and ascribed to "The Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world."

[Iakus]

I can't help but question the concept of a "Golden City" built by the Maker.

He's omnipotent isn't he? What does he need a bunch of buildings for? What is the purpose of this city? The Fade creatures don't need buildings either. No need to shelter themselves from the elements. They aren't social creatures either as far as I can tell and have no need to band together for survival.

It just sounds so absolutely ridiculous that I can't help but laugh at the idea of anyone taking it seriously let alone trying to spread it and even shedding blood over it.

As Morrigan asked, "what is a god?"

 

The "gods" of Thedas are clearly mortal, and not omnipotent:  The Old Gods of Tevinter, the Elvhen Evanuris, and perhaps even the Maker, are finite, and even mortal to a certain degree.

[Iakus]

@Iakus, The Old Gods were in the Golden City.  Only the Chantry claim that it was the home of the Maker.

 

"In -2800 Ancient the Old Gods, including Dumat, began whispering to humanity from the Golden City."

 

"Like the other Old Gods, Dumat endorsed the ancient Tevinter Magisters attempt to reach the Golden City and spoke to the High Priest of Dumat, Sethius Amladaris who used the alias, "The Conductor of Silence" and told them to join in the endeavour." http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dumat

 

It seems to me as though the Old Gods also lived in the Golden City, even though the Chantry does a good job of evading that fact by claiming that they were "Old spirits across the veil".   The Chantry claims that the Maker imprisoned the Old Gods underground for usurping his worshipers.  But that underground location is a physical place in Thedas which means that they couldn't have been imprisoned on Thedas when the Magisters attempted to reach the Golden City.  Unless there is a time gap between when the Old Gods whispered to the Magisters and aided in planning the trip and the Magisters attempt to actually enter it. if I were to make any sense out of this story, then I would say that perhaps the Maker (Most likely another Old God) found out about the trip and disapproved and imprisoned the other Old Gods on Thedas.  So when the Magisters finally made it to the Golden City, the Maker corrupted it and them, and left. The Old Gods continued to whisper to the Magisters, but this time to free them from their prisons and whenever one attempts to do so they corrupt the Old God and start a Blight.

 

This is probably why Cory remembers the Golden Halls.  The trip was a success and the halls weren't corrupted from them just touching it (as I think the Chantry implies), but that it was corrupted on purpose after they got there.

And some stories say the Old Gods were imprisoned in the earth well beforehand:

 

http://dragonage.wik...y:_The_Old_Gods

 

But really, nobody knows the nature of the Old Gods.  God, spirit, demon something else?  The Qunari even think they are simply intelligent, powerful dragons.  Perhaps hibernating rather than imprisoned.

[Hazegurl]

The info in the link doesn't state when the Old Gods were imprisoned.

 

But I think I may have gotten it wrong in my earlier post.  I don't know if Cory remembers the halls being Golden or if they were already black when he arrived.

 

I remember reading that when Cory saw the throne empty he concluded that no Gods existed.  And then the whole "Dumat, if you have ever existed..." line from him makes me think that he could have been lying about the Old Gods whispering to him to enter the city. Which does lend some truth that perhaps the Old Gods are just hibernating Dragons.  However, I find it hard to believe that seven people, who did not know each other, and all worshiped seven different Old Gods were all told the same thing.  And if they are just hibernating Dragons, then why are they calling to the Blighted? 

[Andres Hendrix]

I'm very much in agreement with what Hitchens once wrote,

“Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.”

Chantry Check List:

Irrational. check

Goes on about the 'transcendent', rather than the importance of the real world. check

Wants people to think themselves subordinate to their supposed authority. check

Totalitarian (has imperial in its name). check

Wants people to sacrifice their own ambitions and happiness, because the Chantry is 'soooo much more important'. check

Production line compassion. check



So nope, don't like the Chantry. lol





 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ancient Tevinters believed that an absent creator (later called the Maker) created the Golden City (as per Gaider's post), but that it was currently the Throne of the Old Gods (as per World of Thedas and DAI).

 

I contest that. Do you have a source?

 

BTW, early human civilization predates the Veil, including the tribes that would eventually make up Tevinter.

 

Do you have a source for human civilization predating the Veil? Vivienne mentions that human history has no record of a time before the Veil, so what we find out about it in Trespasser implies to me that Solas created it before the Neromenians arrived in Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The info in the link doesn't state when the Old Gods were imprisoned.

 

But I think I may have gotten it wrong in my earlier post.  I don't know if Cory remembers the halls being Golden or if they were already black when he arrived.

 

I remember reading that when Cory saw the throne empty he concluded that no Gods existed.  And then the whole "Dumat, if you have ever existed..." line from him makes me think that he could have been lying about the Old Gods whispering to him to enter the city. Which does lend some truth that perhaps the Old Gods are just hibernating Dragons.  However, I find it hard to believe that seven people, who did not know each other, and all worshiped seven different Old Gods were all told the same thing.  And if they are just hibernating Dragons, then why are they calling to the Blighted? 

 

Corypheus also muses to himself that he has communicated with Dumat in the past in the in the memory crystals in the Temple of Dumat. He is also surprised that he can't hear the voice of Dumat in legacy. I think his "If you ever truly existed..." line might be because he never actually met Dumat in person (or if he did as a darkspawn, he doesn't remember), he only heard a voice that claimed to be him.

[Ieldra]

Do you have a source for human civilization predating the Veil? Vivienne mentions that human history has no record of a time before the Veil, so what we find out about it in Trespasser implies to me that Solas created it before the Neromenians arrived in Thedas.

It's a conclusion we can draw from the timeline. All sources we have indicate that the elves were still immortal when they encountered humans for the first time (Codex entries about Arlathan), which means the Veil hadn't been created yet when humans arrived on Thedas. Since humans arrived around -1900 TE (-3100 Ancient), and the Old Gods began to "whisper from the Golden City" around -1600 TE, we can tentatively place the creation of the Veil between -1900 and -1600 TE. I've actually made a much closer calculation that placed it around -1650  TE, but I don't remember how I arrived at that conclusion...

 

...ah, here it is: WoTI (p11) mentions that elves are said to first notice the quickening around -2850 Ancient (-1650 TE), which is 250 years after the humans arrived on Thedas. The Veil must've been created a short time before that.

[Iakus]

The info in the link doesn't state when the Old Gods were imprisoned.

 

But I think I may have gotten it wrong in my earlier post.  I don't know if Cory remembers the halls being Golden or if they were already black when he arrived.

 

I remember reading that when Cory saw the throne empty he concluded that no Gods existed.  And then the whole "Dumat, if you have ever existed..." line from him makes me think that he could have been lying about the Old Gods whispering to him to enter the city. Which does lend some truth that perhaps the Old Gods are just hibernating Dragons.  However, I find it hard to believe that seven people, who did not know each other, and all worshiped seven different Old Gods were all told the same thing.  And if they are just hibernating Dragons, then why are they calling to the Blighted? 

Nobody knows when the Old Gods were imprisoned.  

 

The Golden City was already blackened when Corypheus arrived.  So that much the Chantry definitely gets wrong.

 

Corypheus seems to doubt that the voice he heard was actually Dumat.  Somebody promised him the power of a god if he stormed the Golden City.  The assumption was it was Dumat.  But, well, things went sideways.  And now in the modern world Dumat has gone entirely silent (har har).  Nobody whispers to Corypheus, and the Blackened City is now clearly unclaimed.  As far as Corypheus is concerned, there are no gods watching over Thedas.  So he's going to fill the position himself.

[Iakus]

It's a conclusion we can draw from the timeline. All sources we have indicate that the elves were still immortal when they encountered humans for the first time (Codex entries about Arlathan), which means the Veil hadn't been created yet when humans arrived on Thedas. Since humans arrived around -1900 TE (-3100 Ancient), and the Old Gods began to "whisper from the Golden City" around -1600 TE, we can tentatively place the creation of the Veil between -1900 and -1600 TE. I've actually made a much closer calculation that placed it around -1650  TE, but I don't remember how I arrived at that conclusion...

 

...ah, here it is: WoTI mentions that elves are said to first notice the quickening around -2850 Ancient, which is 250 years after the humans arrived on Thedas.

The timeline also states that Tevinter destroyed Arlathan in -975 Ancient.  Which we now know to be untrue.  It could very well be that Arlathan was destroyed when the Veil went up.

 

I think we have to take all ancient history with a grain of salt.

[Ieldra]

The timeline also states that Tevinter destroyed Arlathan in -975 Ancient.  Which we now know to be untrue.  It could very well be that Arlathan was destroyed when the Veil went up.

 

I think we have to take all ancient history with a grain of salt.

There is no necessary contradiction. As I see it, they destroyed what was left of Arlathan and took it for the whole. It's very plausible. Of course it could all be wrong, but if the ancient history makes sense - and it appears to - I see no reason to question the approximate validity of the times given.

[Dabrikishaw]

I don't like the Chantry I was introduced to in Origins.

[Ashagar]

Nobody knows when the Old Gods were imprisoned.  

 

The Golden City was already blackened when Corypheus arrived.  So that much the Chantry definitely gets wrong.

 

Corypheus seems to doubt that the voice he heard was actually Dumat.  Somebody promised him the power of a god if he stormed the Golden City.  The assumption was it was Dumat.  But, well, things went sideways.  And now in the modern world Dumat has gone entirely silent (har har).  Nobody whispers to Corypheus, and the Blackened City is now clearly unclaimed.  As far as Corypheus is concerned, there are no gods watching over Thedas.  So he's going to fill the position himself.

 

Corypheus is unreliable, on hand he claims the golden city was already black filled with corruption and dead whispers but he also boasts on how he walked its golden halls as he fights you which is a tad hard to do if the city was already black. He also only claims the maker does not exist in his break you with words speech while in his Journal he merely refers to people praying to a absent god who does not answer and how he would give the people a god that would answer their prayers.

 

There is also the matter that there are ancient records of the golden city being golden before the first blight and word of god from the developers also stated the golden city was indeed golden until the seven magisters breached it.