172 réponses à ce sujet

[fangs4fun]

I am very doubtful of the historical accuracy of the Chant.  I am also very wary of any one organisation who thinks they should be the one to keep the order, imposing their laws and beliefs on other people.  I am very doubtful that the Chantry can become an open-minded organisation that encourages critical thinking.

[ComedicSociopathy]

One merit that I'd grant the Chantry in light of Trespasser is the existence of the Exalted Council. Yes, it was somewhat of a nuisance in Trespasser, but the idea of an international council that brings to together nations like Orlais and Ferelden, and even Tevinter together to deal with issues that affect the whole of Thedas is a step in the right direction in my mind. Until now the only instances of such international corporation came in the form of a Blight or Exalted March. 

 

In short, a medieval United Nations sounds crazy awesome if it can last. 

[Aren]

No, it is utterly incompetent and was source of problems in dai like mage-templar war and their efforts to bring down only guy that could close breach. Then their system to supervise and control mages was rather poorly done and lot of secuirty was compromised in order to give mages comfort and some freedom what unfortunately lead to a lot disasters we had to solve. Outside that it is good mean to indoctrinate people, sadly we can't take over the chantry in dai and establish proper policies concerning mages. 

Your policy for mages would be akin to the  Schutz-staffeln treatment

[Aren]

A god is nothing more but a being of immense power and not more or less deserving of its power than anyone else.

 

 

 

I don't know what others see when they consider the story of the Tower of Babel. I see people's heroic attempt at gaining control of their fate, and the god's reaction the wilful act of a jealous parent who doesn't want his children to grow up.

You're just constructed you're definition of god  based solely on the definition of power.

A God by definition (with the capital G) is an all powerful being whom first quality is perfection.

In nature such concept do not exist aside from specific branches  of the mathematical fields or ideal states in other scientific disciplines.

So long as this "anyone else" doesn't show quality of absolute perfection

meaning the ​state of being ​complete and ​correct in every way,flawless

(which is indeed quality more akin to silence ,exactly what the Maker represent in this setting)

he can't   be defined as a God.

 

On the tower of Babel or the Etemenanki  you better follow some serious and deep exegesis on the argument the words and the symbolisms,rather than approximate everything with heavy simplicity and speak about jealousy or heroes and antiheroes...which is not what the tower of Babel tale is about.

[ModernAcademic]

The Church was not always corrupt and dishonest. In fact, if it weren't for its existence, Western civilization would have never survived the decline of the Roman Empire.

 

It was the Church who preserved much of the ancient knowledge produced by the Greek philosophers, the Roman military strategists and politicians and the Egyptian architects. The Church was fundamental to help rebuild much of the Western culture, politics and economy. She preserved the intellectual legacy of Antiquity by teaching it to the sons of the families who would fight alongside Charlemagne, become the European nobility and inaugurate the feudal system.

 

Institutions evolve, much like people. They change many times. It doesn't mean they're EVIL or GOOD. Different leaders have ruled in different moments and have molded it to balance its own needs and interests with the task of dealing with the challenges that arose in each period and that forced it to adapt so as to not disappear. 

 

It's very difficult to judge something that is 2,000 years old using a simplistic, dualistic philosophical perspective such as good or bad, honest or corrupt, etc. The Church is, like any old institution, something that is in constant evolution and which has assumed many different policies to survive in the equally ever-changing European political scenario.

 

Has it become corrupt? Yes. Is it outdated, defending a morality that is no longer valid to the needs of contemporary society? Yes. Should it disappear? Perhaps, perhaps not. Coin was invented back in China, more than 6,000 years ago. Has it been abolished? Or have governments adapted a useful mechanism of trade to attend to the needs of their time?

 

Maybe that's what the Church needs to do. Maybe it doesn't have to disappear. Maybe it needs to undergo a severe reform. Become a humanistic, antropocentric religious institution that teaches the role of Christianity in the History of mankind rather than insist in using blind faith in Christianism as the basis for its existence, among many other changes it can make. That's one way it can survive. 

[Ashagar]

I have never bought the arguments of religious or spiritual beliefs being outdated relics of the past myself though I tend to avoid such debates because both sides seem incapable of not using logical fallacies to prove their side right when there is no right answer only the answer one finds for themselves.

 

On the catholic church and the chantry organizations like them in real life and fiction, such ancient organizations have with good and bad sides. They are in and of themselves are made of people saints and sinners, the just and the corrupt at all levels, wither people see them as good, evil or neither likely reflects their view on such things and humanity in general as such organizations are ultimately human in nature and thus reflect human nature.

[DraftiestTrash]

In my true canon playthrough I always played an elven Inquisutor in order to constantly diss the Chantry and talk down being the Herald of Andraste, but after the In Your Hear shall Burn I begin to play an elf that begins to believe in the Maker. That being said i do support the Chantry early on because as Lady Pentaghast stated "Get rid of the Chantry and new problems shall arise" though it still need reform, which is why i tend to pick Leliana to be Divine and sometimes Cassandra.

[SgtSteel91]

I support the Chantry that Leliana wants to build.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Your policy for mages would be akin to the  Schutz-staffeln treatment

Not rly , but such comparisons is what happens when you let emotions in such matters to take over. My priority is secuirty and disposing threat that mages pose not petty cruelty toward local minorities.

[Iadro]

My characters across all the games, even if they were raised Andrastean, wouldn't. Andraste herself undoubtedly deserves to be lauded, as she certainly existed in canon, with multiple records denoting her many admirable deeds (freeing the slaves, leading an invasion against the wretched magisters), but in my opinion Andrasteanism as dictated by the Chantry is a terrible sham of a religion, created by Orlesians long after the woman herself and all her Disciples passed on.

 

There's very little commendable to say about that nation, which has used it's pet religion to justify seizure of foreign territory in the name of Andraste... Exalted Marches, the murder of Viscount Perrin Threnhold of Kirkwall, and the Fereldan Occupation, in which the Chantry happily gave the divine seal approval through it's mouthpiece Mother Bronach. (Sources: DAWiki, World of Thedas, "The Stolen Throne" novel...) I'm sorry, but I simply can't abide any sort of national power which attacks another with the only given explanation being "nyah, nyah, we're the Church, so suck it." Up until Inquisition they maintained popular support by generating endless amounts of anti-mage thetoric, and purposely addicted their own loyal Templars to drugs in the name of control. 

 

It's simply vile.

[Ashagar]

Mind you that the southern chantr at its worse was still paradise for mages compared to before the existence of the chantry when the general population of the south would cheerfully and brutally wipe out entire families because a family member was a suspected mage.

 

Viscount Perrin Threnhold likely isn't a good example given he was apparently a insane monster who brutally murdered the previous knight commander and was tend forcefully removed by Meradeth and the exalted march against the Qunari is likely the only reason the Qunari haven't enslaved all of thedas to the qun which I view as being worse than the ancient Tevnter Imperium.

 

I would agree the chantry Marches against Tevinter were clearly wrong and the one against the dales was questionable though it likely the only reason we aren't dealing with the Dalish Empire instead of the Orlaisian empire given how badly the dales crushed and demoralized the empire.

[Nimlowyn]

Large organizations will always have problems, Solas isn't wrong. A lot of things the Chantry has done has pissed me off. I'm not super chill with how far fear has taken a hold in their teachings, and I'm thinking specifically about magic and spirits here. I think this fear creates more problems than it solves. I believe in the Chantry Leliana is working to build, one devoted to charity, one that opens the priesthood to all, one that does away with historical revisionism. Starting with with re-canonization of the Canticle of Shartan. 'Bout damn time!!

[Reznore57]

Large organizations will always have problems, Solas isn't wrong. A lot of things the Chantry has done has pissed me off. I'm not super chill with how far fear has taken a hold in their teachings, and I'm thinking specifically about magic and spirits here. I think this fear creates more problems than it solves. I believe in the Chantry Leliana is working to build, one devoted to charity, one that opens the priesthood to all, one that does away with historical revisionism. Starting with with re-canonization of the Canticle of Shartan. 'Bout damn time!!

 

Even if I'm not a fan of "Magic is a curse , blablabla" Chantry propaganda , I would point out in the grand scheme of things , it did work and it did have a positive effect.

If you look at the ancient elven empire , and Tevinter , the two empires before the Chantry which had no problem with magic ...it's not pretty at all.

Both of these empires also used religious propaganda saying a few Chosen Ones with magic are meant to rule over everyone : Evanuris/Magisters.Both empires had slaves .Both empires created world wide catastrophe :the Evanuris loosing it and about to destroy the world , so Fen Harel created the Veil.The world changes.Elven empire is destroyed.

The magisters goes to the Golden City , the Blight is unleashed , again the world changes.Dwarven Empire is destroyed , soon Tevinter empire follows.

 

So far the Chantry has been a beacon of stability , at worst they go on Exalted Marches...I mean yeah it's bad people die but that's nothing compared to the creation of the Veil or the Blight.

The templars/mages war was well again a simple war , things just got way worse for the Chantry when a Tevinter Magisters and an Elven mage got involved.The Chantry organised a peace submit while those relics of the past just blow everyone up.

[Medhia_Nox]

I don't support any institutions.  So, do I support the Chantry?  No.

 

Do I oppose the Chantry?  No. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Even if I'm not a fan of "Magic is a curse , blablabla" Chantry propaganda , I would point out in the grand scheme of things , it did work and it did have a positive effect.

If you look at the ancient elven empire , and Tevinter , the two empires before the Chantry which had no problem with magic ...it's not pretty at all.

Both of these empires also used religious propaganda saying a few Chosen Ones with magic are meant to rule over everyone : Evanuris/Magisters.Both empires had slaves .Both empires created world wide catastrophe :the Evanuris loosing it and about to destroy the world , so Fen Harel created the Veil.The world changes.Elven empire is destroyed.

The magisters goes to the Golden City , the Blight is unleashed , again the world changes.Dwarven Empire is destroyed , soon Tevinter empire follows.

 

So far the Chantry has been a beacon of stability , at worst they go on Exalted Marches...I mean yeah it's bad people die but that's nothing compared to the creation of the Veil or the Blight.

The templars/mages war was well again a simple war , things just got way worse for the Chantry when a Tevinter Magisters and an Elven mage got involved.The Chantry organised a peace submit while those relics of the past just blow everyone up.

 

What's also commendable is an institutional ability and willingness to reform. That's pretty hard to emphasize enough- the Chantry has a dogma, but it also allows a fair deal of ideological flexibility amongst its adherants, and tolerates their involvement and rise. There are peaceful transitions of power, a tolerance for dissent, and open questioning of institutional purpose and historic narratives- including by the clergy and their sponsored acedemics.

 

The Chantry's an institution that's able to debate it's own flaws- without then trying to purge the opposition or dissenters. That puts it beyond just about everyone else in the setting.

[Iakus]

What's also commendable is an institutional ability and willingness to reform. That's pretty hard to emphasize enough- the Chantry has a dogma, but it also allows a fair deal of ideological flexibility amongst its adherants, and tolerates their involvement and rise. There are peaceful transitions of power, a tolerance for dissent, and open questioning of institutional purpose and historic narratives- including by the clergy and their sponsored acedemics.

 

The Chantry's an institution that's able to debate it's own flaws- without then trying to purge the opposition or dissenters. That puts it beyond just about everyone else in the setting.

Just having Vivienne, Cassandra, or Leliana be potential Divines is a pretty good example of this

[Gervaise]

Actually a hardened Leliana makes the halls of the Grand Cathedral run with the blood of those who oppose her point of view, which doesn't sound very tolerant of dissenters to me.   While a softened Leliana has to withstand repeated assassination attempts; suggesting the opposition aren't much more tolerant either.  Repeated Exalted Marches against the Imperial Chantry also seem to suggest that differences of opinion aren't tolerated, bearing in mind that actually Tevinter officially adopted the Andrastrian faith before it became consolidated in the south.   Ironically if you have a Divine Leliana then her reforms pretty much match what the Imperial Chantry insisted upon long before.    Vivienne also stamps down pretty hard against any opposition.    Only Cassandra, who was a less radical reformer, manages to do so without too much bloodshed and even then there are hints of potentially violent opposition.   

 

Let us not forget that the Chantry also massacred those residents of Rivain who refused to either convert back to their faith or leave their homes after the signing of the peace accord.   So I really don't see how the Chantry can be viewed as holding the moral high ground compared with everyone else.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Just having Vivienne, Cassandra, or Leliana be potential Divines is a pretty good example of this

 

Still wish I could of made Sera Divine. 

[Iakus]

Still wish I could of made Sera Divine. 

She'd probably ban breeches or something

[JDALFONSO]

I feel like this thread plays into exactly what Bioware intended when they set up the  religions of the series. The Chantry is modelled after Catholicism, just like the Qun is modelled after Islam, the Dalish are the homeless Jewish folk of the world and the Dwarves follow an ancestral based faith similar to many Eastern cultures.

 

With that said the Chantry of the the Dragon Age Universe faces many of the same issues that the Roman Catholic Church faces today, what do you do when the core tenants of your faith/ organization prove to be false in every way? I guess to answer the question, I am totally against the Chantry. Does it come in handy when it comes to time to build and army to save the world, and was it established with honorable intentions... sure. But thousands of years of elf hating and mage enslavement pretty much muddle up any of the good that it does. I personally would have loved an option where i can convince none of my companions to become Divine, so the whole damn thing could fall apart and watch the mayhem of the aftermath in DA4.

[Ashagar]

The core tenants of your faith being false doesn't exactly make for a good comparison to the catholic church though having issues with the organization would. The newer southern chantry failing part would likely put the south into complete and utter chaos though perhaps not at as bad for the mages as before the southern chantry existed as we should remember the chantry actually tempered and lessened the hostilities in the south towards mages, they were actually vastly(kill the suspected mage and their whole family just to be sure) worse before the southern chantry existed.

 

Another thing to keep in mind that Tevinter had a Chantry long before the south did being formed by the very archon that plunged their sword into Andraste. It may have joined the new southern chantry to avoid conflict and later split off but the over all  its over all organization there is vastly older and would likely move into the void left by the destruction of the southern chantry and likely with it the Imperium.

[Gervaise]

I wish people wouldn't keep comparing the Qun to Islam; it is nothing like it.    Its based on the philosophical teachings (there is no god in the Qun) of a guy which were written down in a book. Everyone is equal (allegedly) and contributes to the whole after being assigned a role at childhood.  The good of society above the freedom of the individual.    No families but everyone living in common and children raised by special nannies.  That sounds more like Karl Marx and socialism to me.    Plus have you seen the ridiculously ostentatious spoils of the Qunari items; they remind me more of the statues, etc, that I saw in Soviet Russia.     It was a supreme disappointment to me to find that the Qun were just as flamboyantly vulgar as Orlais but like I say, very reminiscent of the "monuments to the people" under the Communists.

 

Whilst city elves can be compared with Jewish people and their ghettos, the Dalish remind me far more of the Romany gypsies (I believe that was the original concept for them which was then adjusted to be more native American).   

 

As for the Chantry resembling the Catholic Church, well only very superficially in having things like a Divine (Pope), a clergy hierarchy, etc, based off a specific period in its history when the senior figures were regarded by people of their own time in the Church and subsequently as corrupt. However, even at that time, the majority of people in the Church were genuinely holy and provided much needed care in the community.   If it was truly like the Catholic Church then long before now Divine's would have likely got themselves banished for criticising people, particularly the rulers, who did not live by the moral teaching of the faith.     As it is the clergy actively encourage people to ignore it.    To give an example: Mother Giselle and others know that the mark was not given to you by Andraste and she was not the woman behind you in the Fade.    Yet if you state you want to tell the truth, they insist and encourage you to lie about it.   

 

A quote from the Chant of Light: Those who bear false witness and work to deceive others know this:  There is but one Truth.   All things are known to our Maker and he shall judge their lies.

 

The only thing that the Chantry has ever seemed bothered about is the use of magic, even though this is only one aspect of the teaching in the Chant.     Constant abuse of power by non mages including routine murder of servants as part of the Grand Game, rape of peasant girls as their right by Chevaliers and their use of innocent elves as target practice, not to mention nobles constantly murdering one another, plus all the abuses that occurred within the Circles to those who did not have connections in high places, have been consistently ignored by the very people who should be condemning such activities.

[Nimlowyn]

I wish people wouldn't keep comparing the Qun to Islam; it is nothing like it.    Its based on the philosophical teachings (there is no god in the Qun) of a guy which were written down in a book. Everyone is equal (allegedly) and contributes to the whole after being assigned a role at childhood.  The good of society above the freedom of the individual.    No families but everyone living in common and children raised by special nannies.  That sounds more like Karl Marx and socialism to me.    Plus have you seen the ridiculously ostentatious spoils of the Qunari items; they remind me more of the statues, etc, that I saw in Soviet Russia.     It was a supreme disappointment to me to find that the Qun were just as flamboyantly vulgar as Orlais but like I say, very reminiscent of the "monuments to the people" under the Communists.

 

Whilst city elves can be compared with Jewish people and their ghettos, the Dalish remind me far more of the Romany gypsies (I believe that was the original concept for them which was then adjusted to be more native American).   

 

As for the Chantry resembling the Catholic Church, well only very superficially in having things like a Divine (Pope), a clergy hierarchy, etc, based off a specific period in its history when the senior figures were regarded by people of their own time in the Church and subsequently as corrupt. However, even at that time, the majority of people in the Church were genuinely holy and provided much needed care in the community.   If it was truly like the Catholic Church then long before now Divine's would have likely got themselves banished for criticising people, particularly the rulers, who did not live by the moral teaching of the faith.     As it is the clergy actively encourage people to ignore it.    To give an example: Mother Giselle and others know that the mark was not given to you by Andraste and she was not the woman behind you in the Fade.    Yet if you state you want to tell the truth, they insist and encourage you to lie about it.   

 

A quote from the Chant of Light: Those who bear false witness and work to deceive others know this:  There is but one Truth.   All things are known to our Maker and he shall judge their lies.

 

The only thing that the Chantry has ever seemed bothered about is the use of magic, even though this is only one aspect of the teaching in the Chant.     Constant abuse of power by non mages including routine murder of servants as part of the Grand Game, rape of peasant girls as their right by Chevaliers and their use of innocent elves as target practice, not to mention nobles constantly murdering one another, plus all the abuses that occurred within the Circles to those who did not have connections in high places, have been consistently ignored by the very people who should be condemning such activities.

The Elves' original concept was indeed based on the Jews, the idea of a lost homeland and the alienages (analogous to Medieval ghettos) in particular. The wiki page cites a tumblr post by Gaider (under the trivia section http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elf) that, sadly, is gone since he deleted his blog. I followed his blog closely, it was an interesting entry. He also cautioned that people not take the inspiration too literally, as allegory; the Jews may have been initial inspiration but the elves grew to be their own people (their religion is profoundly different, for one). I agree with this wholeheartedly; I think one of Dragon Age's strengths is that it takes inspiration from several sources and becomes uniquely its own. Furthermore, plenty more peoples than the Jews can relate to the story of the elves, as you point out. 

 

(On a side note I also found the revelations at the Temple of Mythal interesting. Abelas states the elves fought amongst themselves and thus destroyed themselves; Tevinter took advantage and fed upon their corpose. The same could be said for the Jews and the fall of the second Temple). 

 

I also have to agree with you about the Qun/Islam comparison. It seems more like a smidge of Buddhism and a lot of communism to me. I think you explain it very well.