18 réponses à ce sujet

[phishface]

Let's work out how much damage the perfect party could do with a perfect attack using the perfect weapons. I'm thinking it must involve a triggered Mark of Death/Mark of Doom.

 

This must include at least 2 rogues. An Assassin for MoD + pre-trigger Hidden Blades, plus an archer Tempest with Thousand Cuts. Perhaps you'd also want to try to get your Tempest for Flask of Fire + ??? (maybe Throwing Blades/Precision Targetting for the sunder, followed by Thousand Cuts, then Shadow Strike)?

 

Should it be 4 rogues, or could a mage or reaver contribute?

 

Also, is there any enemy in the game you could actually do this on? Assume nightmare + trials. Bosses are out, because they have cut scenes in their battles, which I've found screws the game up if you kill them too quickly. So, I'm guessing the Highland Ravager, though it only has ~300k HP, which may not be enough.

 

 

 

[Aeratus]

I think the answer is probably along the lines of...pretty damn high, lol.

 

I found a video showing Hakkon taken down solo in one sequence, including 220k damage in one MoD trigger: 

[phishface]

That's impressive, but also depressing because it's too easy. With just one other party member - a Tempest rogue - the damage would've massively exceeded Hakkon's hp. It's like the Ravager killed in 3 secs with Thousand Cuts. I wish they'd added optional super hard enemies. It seems even a non-optomized build is far too powerful for the hardest enemies in the game.

 

[Arvaarad]

It seems even a non-optimized build is far too powerful for the hardest enemies in the game.

To get those numbers with an assassin, you have to have extremely good gear, the right passives, precise timing on the sequence of abilities you use, and Mighty Offense Tonic.

I can see that they're using Mighty Offense Tonic from the preview image. That alone will multiply their damage by a factor of about 3x. But without watching the video, I can almost guarantee they also have the following passives: First Blood, Pincushion, Cheap Shot, Ambush, and Throatcutter. All of those passives are notable because they aren't on the way to important abilities - they require spending lots of points just to get to the passive. To get an assassin that does that much damage, you have to be at or near max level, because the necessary passives are so expensive. And you have to sacrifice some of your ability to handle "normal" enemies, because that much spike damage isn't useful against groups of enemies with low hp. It's not what I'd consider a non-optimized build.

The Thousand Cuts kills are also mitigated by the trial that resets focus when you travel to camp. If that trial is on, you'll have to do a massive amount of focus grinding to use a T3 focus ability.

[phishface]

To get those numbers with an assassin, you have to have extremely good gear, the right passives, precise timing on the sequence of abilities you use, and Mighty Offense Tonic.

I can see that they're using Mighty Offense Tonic from the preview image. That alone will multiply their damage by a factor of about 3x. But without watching the video, I can almost guarantee they also have the following passives: First Blood, Pincushion, Cheap Shot, Ambush, and Throatcutter. All of those passives are notable because they aren't on the way to important abilities - they require spending lots of points just to get to the passive. To get an assassin that does that much damage, you have to be at or near max level, because the necessary passives are so expensive. And you have to sacrifice some of your ability to handle "normal" enemies, because that much spike damage isn't useful against groups of enemies with low hp. It's not what I'd consider a non-optimized build.

The Thousand Cuts kills are also mitigated by the trial that resets focus when you travel to camp. If that trial is on, you'll have to do a massive amount of focus grinding to use a T3 focus ability.

 

I see what you mean, but you're talking about self-gimping. The Hakkon vid is a solo, as is the Ravager one in my post above. The Rest Easy trial is another example of a gimped playthrough. But if you have a full party with normal builds and decent crafted gear, then even with Walk Softly + Even Ground it seems you can be massively overpowered if you basically know what you're doing.

[Arvaarad]

I see what you mean, but you're talking about self-gimping. The Hakkon vid is a solo, as is the Ravager one in my post above. The Rest Easy trial is another example of a gimped playthrough. But if you have a full party with normal builds and decent crafted gear, then even with Walk Softly + Even Ground it seems you can be massively overpowered if you basically know what you're doing.

Dragons are basically the best-case scenario for assassins and tempests. Assassins and tempests are good at single-target spike damage. And though they don't have much damage mitigation or CC, they do have a lot of ways of avoiding attacks. So you've got one enemy that's immune to CC and does powerful slow attacks. That's a rogue's wet dream.

Of course, a lot of players don't even bring rogues to dragon fights, because they're perceived as too fragile. I can't even count the number of times I've seen people recommending Blackwall for dragon fights, while suggesting that Cole be left at Skyhold because he's squishy. And this is in the Combat and Strategy forum, which skews toward higher-skill players. When I talk to people in real life, they talk about gruelling, hour-long battles with 3-warrior parties on Normal difficulty. I suggest bringing Cole or Sera and they'll look at me like I have feet for brains.

"If you basically know what you're doing" is a pretty big asterisk. The designers can clearly make rogues as powerful as they want, and the vast majority of players won't even use them, much less use them to their full potential.

[Aeratus]

I see what you mean, but you're talking about self-gimping. The Hakkon vid is a solo, as is the Ravager one in my post above. The Rest Easy trial is another example of a gimped playthrough. But if you have a full party with normal builds and decent crafted gear, then even with Walk Softly + Even Ground it seems you can be massively overpowered if you basically know what you're doing.

You don't even need fancy stuff like focus, massive-offense tonics, or stealth to be overpowered against big bosses. Even an AI-controlled Sera, if using an optimized build, can drop 40% of a dragon's health in max difficulty settings in a few seconds without any potions or focus. Flask of lightning on an AI character is basically a mini thousand cuts every 20 seconds or so, since the Elgarnan Enaste crafted bow mores than doubles the damage of basic attacks. 

 

With the new enhanced amulet of barrier, AI-controlled tempests are nearly unkillable by any dragons or bosses. 

 

For highly optimized builds, big bosses don't pose a challenge to parties. IMO, the stuff that gives the most trouble aren't the bosses, but the trash mobs in JoH that can one shot you unexpectedly. I think the hardest fight in the game is the courtyard battle at the NW edge of the JoH map, where there are a ton of hakkonites that can unexpectedly one shot you and your party members.   

 

However, the difference between optimized and non-optimized is huge. Even on this forum, you see people unsure how to beat bosses, while on the other hand you have videos of people soloing them.

[PapaCharlie9]

It's complicated because of procs and various stackable buffs from gear. Too many of them have probabilities and dependencies on situational context, like flanking.

It would be easier to calculate a theoretical max if you remove a lot of the variability, like:

• Ignore gear (except weapon) and accessories
• Standardize the weapon to be an unmodified 100 base damage (low for a warrior, high for a mage)
• Assume all attacks are frontal (ignore flanking) and the target has no status effects (ignore combos and skill interactions)
• Target has no resistances and weaknesses
• Target is human size (because some skills don't work on targets larger than AoE)
• Target has no guard and no barrier and no armor
• The target will stay put during the attack, won't fly/jump/teleport off, so stationary DoT does full amount

Finally, you need to put some kind of time limit. Are you looking for a single peak damage number, or total damage over a period of time? Based on the OP, where you mention MoD, it has to be over a period of time. And since damage stacks for MoD or Static Cage, the amount of time needs to be a constant, so let's arbitrarily say 5 seconds, counting from the first hit that would aggro the target. Any amount of prep time to take MO potion or whatnot is fine, clock doesn't start until first hit.

 

Now that the problem is sufficiently constrained, it's pretty much a puzzle game or min/max exercise. For a full party of your choice of classes, what combination of passive and active skills and potions/tonics/grenades yields the highest accumulated damage? Show your work.

 

That is obviously not the true maximum. From there you can predict some high-water marks above that nominal point, like if all characters were flanking or if the target is weak to fire attacks, that sort of stuff.

[berelinde]

Damn, and here I was, feeling all smug about the 14K I did against some Freeman in the Emerald Graves the other day. 

[Dabrikishaw]

We may never know the exact maximum, but I do like knowing that we can exceed at least 200K in damage if we do things right.

[actionhero112]

It's probably whatever the highest HP enemy is maximum health -1 with a triggered MoD. I think it's the highland ravager with even ground. 

 

I know I'm able to put out around 700k with full combo on my assassin. 

 

Spoiler

 

But as you see if you watched the video, enemy health is too low to really pump the numbers. Even solo, the 400k hp dragon is brought to 25% without even triggering mark of death in like less than 5 seconds game time. 

[Arvaarad]

It's probably whatever the highest HP enemy is maximum health -1 with a triggered MoD. I think it's the highland ravager with even ground. 

 

You could probably push it higher by buffing right before triggering MoD. I'm not 100% positive, but I think buffs apply to MoD trigger damage.

 

Maybe I'm imagining it, but I feel like I've seen this in the Corypheus and Saarath fights. I remember having to trigger the mark at 70-80%, because even waiting for 60% ran the risk of killing them instantly and causing them to bug out. I assume because of Throatcutter increasing the damage?

 

Again, I don't have hard data to back this up, so it's possible this is a fever dream.

[phishface]

Dragons are basically the best-case scenario for assassins and tempests. Assassins and tempests are good at single-target spike damage. And though they don't have much damage mitigation or CC, they do have a lot of ways of avoiding attacks. So you've got one enemy that's immune to CC and does powerful slow attacks. That's a rogue's wet dream.

Of course, a lot of players don't even bring rogues to dragon fights, because they're perceived as too fragile. I can't even count the number of times I've seen people recommending Blackwall for dragon fights, while suggesting that Cole be left at Skyhold because he's squishy. And this is in the Combat and Strategy forum, which skews toward higher-skill players. When I talk to people in real life, they talk about gruelling, hour-long battles with 3-warrior parties on Normal difficulty. I suggest bringing Cole or Sera and they'll look at me like I have feet for brains.

"If you basically know what you're doing" is a pretty big asterisk. The designers can clearly make rogues as powerful as they want, and the vast majority of players won't even use them, much less use them to their full potential.

 

Found a good example of exactly what you're talking about on the DA subreddit.

 

People talking about warriors targeting the front legs, mages "on standby" and all sorts of nonsense. If only they knew. A maximum of two rogues and the fight is over in a couple of seconds. 

[ottffsse]

1 mage, preferably a necro which can pull off a static cage (to amplify everyones damage) + generate their own instant 3x energy barrages salvo (thanks lyrium potion+ walking bomb), 2 assassins (yes 2x mark of death stacks lol), 1 either artificer or tempest you choose if you want thousand cuts or hail of arrows basically both great. 

 

Someone should try this on nightmare on the final trespasser boss (who is resistant to damage) to see if you can kill him in less than 30s. 

[Aeratus]

I think the 4th member should be Templar, rather than mage.

 

Horn of Valor (upgraded): Increase damage of party by 35%

Cutting Words: increase damage of party by 20%

Blessed Blades: increase damage by party by 15%

 

Also, I think combat roll on the warrior outdamages energy barrage. 

[phishface]

Someone should try this on nightmare on the final trespasser boss (who is resistant to damage) to see if you can kill him in less than 30s. 

 

I think that might cause a glitch, like when you kill Corypheus too quickly

[ottffsse]

I think the 4th member should be Templar, rather than mage.

 

Horn of Valor (upgraded): Increase damage of party by 35%

Cutting Words: increase damage of party by 20%

Blessed Blades: increase damage by party by 15%

 

Also, I think combat roll on the warrior outdamages energy barrage. 

Over a longer stretch of battle it may be simililar but this is a single sequence. And Static cage will synergize very well with stuff like thousand cuts. etc. Also my necro for instance can take out about half the highland ravagers health alone in burst in 10 seconds using a static cage followed by a walking bomb cast and launching  3x upgraded energy barrages while it is in static cage before the wb hits it (lovely casting mechanic). The only reason she cannot kill that thing in under 30s seconds like those rogues is she has no mark of death in her arsenal like an assassin. And combat roll will not outmatch that. 

[Arvaarad]

I think that might cause a glitch, like when you kill Corypheus too quickly

It absolutely will. Two assassins is crazy fun (yes, Mark of Death will count toward Mark of Death) but you do have to slow your roll when it comes to Cory and Saarath. If you play double assassin against either of them, trigger the first MoD at 85% or higher, then the second immediately after. If you wait for 75-80% to pop the first one, you're playing with fire.

Source: I've completed the Cory fight 3 times with double assassin, and completed the Saarath fight twice with double assassins. I've only played one assassin inquisitor. You'll notice the math doesn't work out.

Saarath's glitch mode is almost as funny as Cory's, though. He gets suspended in midair, like he's Wile E. Coyote or something. He leaps, thinks "oh no, I'm about to die", and gravity politely pauses to capture his realization.

Unfortunately, that puts him permanently out of range of Anchor Blast, haha.

[Aeratus]

The Thousand Cuts kills are also mitigated by the trial that resets focus when you travel to camp. If that trial is on, you'll have to do a massive amount of focus grinding to use a T3 focus ability. 

 

That Highland Ravager (311k health) can be killed solo on a Tempest using solely throwing knives (i.e., no focus skills) during a single flask of fire sequence (a single duration of the flask, with duration passive utilized, and one more skill use after the flask). I can confirm this on a bow-wielding Sera. As for the level 27 version (410k health), I got it down to 20% health using Sera, but I think a dual wield inquisitor Tempest (especially if Qunari) would have gotten the job done.