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[TheBlackAdder13]

So Mythal is supposed to be the elven god of motherhood, nurturing, and justice -- a point DA:I emphasizes in the elven temple in the Arbor Wilds. (Of course, it also characterizes her as vengeful and wrathful when you arouse her ire.)

 

Now when Flemeth is believed to be Mythal -- or at least a wisp of her --the revelation was so shocking that I didn't think about this until well after I finished the game -- but by all Morrigan's accounts, Flemeth was a downright abusive mother. Morrigan's DA:O fade nightmare revolves being smacked around by her mother and Morrigan claims that the demon is doing a shitty job at it because her real mother is even more abusive than the demon impersonating her -- (though this could just be Morrigan's characteristic snark). In DA:I, if you did the dark ritual and there's an OGB, she's also terrified of what Flemeth will do to Kieran when she "abducts" him. However, Flemeth's intentions with the kid turn out to be harmless and possibly even benign (who knows what she saved him from by removing Uthemerial's soul from him).

 

Conversely, we never actually see Flemeth mistreat Morrigan. We only hear about what a horrible, abusive mother she is from Morrigan's second-hand accounts and Morrigan never really provides specific anecdotes (I have a brief memory of telling her how Flemeth smashed a mirror she tole as a child but that's about it -- and that seemed to be in the context of not wanting to reward her young daughter's behavior for fear that she'd be caught and captured by templars/outsiders if she repeated it in the future).

 

Solas also doesn't appear very fond or trusting of Morrigan and I feel like if he thought Flemeth were mistreating her daughter, he wouldn't be so fond or admiring of Mythal. (Remember, in Trespasser he calls her "the best of them [the evanuris]." Lastly, when Varric, Isabela, and Alistair meet Flemeth's other daughter in those who speak, she implies that Flemeth is a good mother to the point where she would be honored should Flemeth try to possess her.

 

This seems like a deliberate character discrepancy and I'm wondering what the reason for the contradiction is. It's certainly an interesting character dynamic that seems worth exploring. Is Morrigan an unreliable narrator when it comes to her mother? Or did Flemeth actually abuse Morrigan growing up? If so, how do we reconcile this with what we know about Mythal's who's supposed to be mothering and nurturing? Is it more evidence of how the Dalish and the pre-veil elves idealized the evanuris? But if so, then why does Solas still hold her in such high esteem if Mythal doesn't even have those redeeming qualities? Is Flemeth so far removed from the original Mythal that's she lost a lot of the first Mythal's original attributes?

[Reznore57]

I believe Flemythal was sort of a  good mother , she kept her daughter safe and taught her how to defend herself , be an independant person etc...there are worst parents for sure.

Just don't see Flemythal as a nice mom who makes cookies etc...

 

Mythal wasn't all fluff and love , she was ruling over an empire with slaves , tyrants etc...I think she got bitter when she was murdered though .She fell and saw the elves fell with her .She lost faith in mankind after this , and obviously she went on and taugh Morrigan not to trust anyone .

Again it's not the best but it's coming from a woman who got betrayed and murdered.

 

Anyway Mythal/Flemeth not mother of the year material for sure , even if Solas likes her , Solas is also ruthless in his own way ...

There are all a product of an ancient empire which was very violent , the ancient elves weren't peaceful at all.

There's an example of the ancient elves building a temple via magic , and two get into an argument and a knife is drawn.

Also an example of Mythal resolving a conflict "peacefully" by naming champions instead of two Gods going into war , it's obvioulsy less bloody , but you still have two people clubbing each others on the head to resolve something.

The Evanuris also got their God status through wars .They weren't the wisest , they were just the ones who beated everyone else into submission.

 

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Flemeth basically admits that she wasn't a good mother in the end of the scene when she tells Morrigan to listen to the voices so they guide her as she never did.

 

Also Mythal being the best of the Evanuris doesn't mean she was good. It just means she was the least malevolent of them. 

[theskymoves]

Banter about Mama!Flemeth, between Morrigan and Leliana (bolding for emphasis is mine)

 

Leliana: They say your mother is Flemeth, a witch of the Korcari Wilds.
Morrigan: They also say that washing your feet in winter makes you catch cold in the head, but we all know that is not true. But sometimes they are right and they are right in this.
Leliana: You know the stories about--
Morrigan: Of course. You think my mother would let me go without telling me all the stories of her youth?

Leliana: My mother told me stories too. She was the one who kindled my love of the old tales and legends.
Morrigan: Hmph. My mother's stories curdled my blood and haunted my dreams. No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them. No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age.

Leliana: I... uh... I see.
Morrigan: No, you don't. You really don't.

[Mlady]

Mythal had two elves duel for 100 years until one fell because of an argument between 2 of the Evanuris and was praised for her wisdom. I don't see that as motherly. I think she was very strict, slightly cruel and gave out tough love. If Solas says she was the best of them all, no wonder he rebelled.

[Big I]

Flemeth taught Morrigan never to let people into her life, whether it's romantic partners or even just friends. As a child she smashed Morrigan's prize possesion, a mirror she'd stolen, simply to warn her not to take foolish risks. In the (canon) Penny Arcade comics, Flemeth had Morrigan act as bait to lure templars to their deaths when Morrigan was only a small girl. Flemeth was never once honest with Morrigan about Flemeth's origins or her plans for Morrigan. It's even possible that Morrigan isn't her biological daughter but was someone she abducted as a baby. If she did give birth to Morrigan, she certainly never told her who her father was.

 

Mother of the year she isn't.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Mythal had two elves duel for 100 years until one fell because of an argument between 2 of the Evanuris and was praised for her wisdom. I don't see that as motherly. I think she was very strict, slightly cruel and gave out tough love. If Solas says she was the best of them all, no wonder he rebelled.

 

Which makes me wonder why Solas seems so personally invested in Mythal? Were they lovers or something?

[Mlady]

Which makes me wonder why Solas seems so personally invested in Mythal? Were they lovers or something?

 

He seems to always been guarding her based on the statues of them we find in the Deep Roads. I would say in a way he might have been bound possibly? Not like you or Morrigan, but in another way maybe. When you drink from the Well he is so angry you are bound to Mythal and tells you that you have no idea what it's like to have thoughts you think are your own, but it's always her Will. I feel it was a hint of his own fate.

[LorenzEffect]

Flemeth and Mythal aren't the same person. Flemeth hosts Mythal in the same way an abomination hosts a spirit.

Also, it's been a while since I read the comics, but I don't think Yavana said anything directly about Flemeth. She said the body transfer ritual is a gift. If the soul can't be forced on the unwilling (as Flemeth says), then I bet this means Morrigan was just wrong about what the ritual did. Maybe it doesn't transfer the whole consciousness, but just the godly powers?

My bet is that Flemeth was deliberately a mean mother, and it's all part of her plan. She's a chessmaster after all.

I was thinking the other day, the part where Flemeth says that Kieran is better behaved than Morrigan was at that age was clearly supposed to be an insult but might be a subtle compliment. I mean, if Morrigan was such a bratty child, who raised her, huh? Who raised Kieran to be a good child? But maybe I'm just overthinking it.

[Mlady]

Flemeth and Mythal aren't the same person. Flemeth hosts Mythal in the same way an abomination hosts a spirit.

Also, it's been a while since I read the comics, but I don't think Yavana said anything directly about Flemeth. She said the body transfer ritual is a gift. If the soul can't be forced on the unwilling (as Flemeth says), then I bet this means Morrigan was just wrong about what the ritual did. Maybe it doesn't transfer the whole consciousness, but just the godly powers?

My bet is that Flemeth was deliberately a mean mother, and it's all part of her plan. She's a chessmaster after all.

I was thinking the other day, the part where Flemeth says that Kieran is better behaved than Morrigan was at that age was clearly supposed to be an insult but might be a subtle compliment. I mean, if Morrigan was such a bratty child, who raised her, huh? Who raised Kieran to be a good child? But maybe I'm just overthinking it.

 

It's more complicated than that. She says Mythal is a part of her like our heart is to our chest. It's not just possession, they are bound together and are one being by choice and the wish for the same things. She is both Mythal and Flemeth and also not. What she gives Solas is her powers because he's too weak to use his own. I suspect she sent Mythal's part of her to Morrigan like she did with the amulet.

 

Flemeth basically thinks a kid who asks no questions, does what she asks without fighting back is behaved. Morrigan was always a challenge for her, not doing what she wanted and it grew worse as she aged.

[ModernAcademic]

Mythal wasn't a motherly mother. She didn't protect Morrigan from the harsh truths of life. And she exposed her daughter to them sooner than she was ready to understand them.

Shattering a child's dreams and punishing her for her natural imagination damages the child. It fragments her psychogical. And that classifies as abuse.

There's a time for showing the truths of the world. Kids are clever and perceptive. They perceive each aspect of life separatedly, as they grow up. And it's up to parents to open their minds one truth at a time.

[Illegitimus]

Well there are a number of things here to consider.  This iteration of Mythal has spent a couple of millenia as an isolated outcast in combination with a woman who united her with over a shared sense of betrayal.   Also Morrigan seems to have been singled out for special treatment because there was a plan for her.  Also the Dalish myths about the gods are mostly in fact myth.  

[Iakus]

Flemeth is very deceptive and rarely gives straight answers.

 

Morrigan lies.  A lot.

 

So in the end, who knows where the truth lies in how well Flemeth raised Morrigan?  Or even how much of it was Flemeth and how much of it Mythal?

[Gervaise]

Flemeth does seem to react with disappointment when Morrigan accuses her of being a bad mother and says she will be a better mother to Kieran.   Morrigan also does refuse the offer Flemeth makes to leave her alone in return for surrendering Kieran and indicates she is willing to sacrifice herself for his sake.   Afterwards she comments to the Inquisitor that she wonders if the offer was some sort of test and whether she passed or failed.     The inscription in the Temple about Mythal's judgements indicate that she would punish the petitioner if she thought their request wasn't merited.    So in the incident with Kieran I think a lot of Mythal was coming through in the offer made to Morrigan and may be it was Mythal who looked hurt when accused of being a bad mother.   It is hard to say.

 

The Flemeth described by Morrigan in DAO did seem a very harsh mother and telling a young child about her experiences with seducing men was abuse.    This seems very unlike the Flemeth we encounter with Kieran but then Morrigan has changed too.   

 

Then again, think about Solas, who seems so reasonable and helpful when he is with the Inquisition, although I did pick up on his evasiveness when question too closely about something he did not wish to answer, but it turns out he was deceiving us the whole time and, if Cory had died in the original explosion, would have grabbed his orb, pulled down the Veil and submerged the world in fiery chaos, destroying all those living there in the process.   He also killed one of his close friends for the crime of thinking that Briala was a person.   Yet he does not consider himself a monster.      

 

So may be Mythal is the same and she influenced the human Flemeth in a way that treating Morrigan as she did, was not to her being a bad mother.   It is only when Morrigan accuses her of such that she even considers it.     Bottom line is that the evanuris, Solas included, do not think the same way we do.  

[myahele]

Flemeth was the 1st Tiger mom before it became a trend

 

Morrigan turned out pretty well considering

[LorenzEffect]

It's more complicated than that. She says Mythal is a part of her like our heart is to our chest. It's not just possession, they are bound together and are one being by choice and the wish for the same things. She is both Mythal and Flemeth and also not. What she gives Solas is her powers because he's too weak to use his own. I suspect she sent Mythal's part of her to Morrigan like she did with the amulet.

 

Flemeth basically thinks a kid who asks no questions, does what she asks without fighting back is behaved. Morrigan was always a challenge for her, not doing what she wanted and it grew worse as she aged.

Well derp. My bad.

I was reading tv tropes earlier today, and it mentions that Mythal is like an absent mom to the elves as well. She could be helping them but is instead doing her own thing. Unless maybe she *is* helping them indirectly, I suppose.

[Ariella]

During the conversation on Sundermount in DA2 if you take snarky, Flemeth talks a little more about it.

Hawke says she's unsure if Morrigan (who gets mentioned by name) is Flemeth's daughter or enemy. Flemeth comments that neither is Morrigan. And there's a comment about expecting Morrigan's betrayal in DAO because it was how Flemeth raised her.

The fact that Flemeth look hurt at Morrigan's accusation, makes me wonder if she would have wanted to raise Morrigan under better circumstances, but what she did was required for some reason.

And because of all this I think we're not done with Flemeth just yet.

[Illegitimus]

F

 

Morrigan lies.  A lot.

 

 

 

Does she?  Yes, she lies (or least only tells a half-truth) about why she's accompanying the Warden.  Is there anything else she says that we know to be a lie?  

[Ariella]

Does she?  Yes, she lies (or least only tells a half-truth) about why she's accompanying the Warden.  Is there anything else she says that we know to be a lie?

And there's way too much venom in her voice when she talks about Flemeth.

I don't see Morrigan being able to counterfit that kind of emotion.

And considering how the scene in dai took her by surprise. We saw her honest reaction to Mom, which matches her less guarded comments about Flemeth.

[TobiTobsen]

Flemeth was the 1st Tiger mom before it became a trend

 

Morrigan turned out pretty well considering

 

Spite seems to be a powerful motivator.

[zambingo]

Point of View plays here.

Morrigan was bitter, arguably still is. Flemeth was bitter about all things too, which undoubtedly tainted her interaction with Morrigan. Flemeth acknowledges her faults in DAI, giving credence to Morrigan's POV. However Morrigan proves to be wrong about a great many things in regards to Flemeth's plan in DAO and in general... which in turns gives credence to Flemeth's insistence that she does love Morrigan and her daughter was never in danger with her etc.

In short: Obi-Wan Kenobi would understand them.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Well derp. My bad.

I was reading tv tropes earlier today, and it mentions that Mythal is like an absent mom to the elves as well. She could be helping them but is instead doing her own thing. Unless maybe she *is* helping them indirectly, I suppose.

 

Well, I think it's safe to assume she views them the same way that Solas does -- not real elves. By those standards, she's actually more helpful to them than Solas as she at least provides some guidance and works with them. She even refers to them as "the people" in DA2 when Merill bows and she tells her to stand because "the people bend their knee far too easily." (Incidentally, this also seems to be in line with Solas's distaste of slavery and subjugation -- I wonder if Mythal was murdered for inciting a slave rebellion and the Dread Wolf continued her work?) 

[Dai Grepher]

Mythal is not Morrigan's mother.

[Mlady]

Mythal is not Morrigan's mother.

 

Well she and Flemeth are one person, so in a way she is and as Solas said, once you are bound, you will always do her bidding. I think Flemeth is not as much Flemeth as she is Mythal in many scenes.

[Ariella]

Well, I think it's safe to assume she views them the same way that Solas does -- not real elves. By those standards, she's actually more helpful to them than Solas as she at least provides some guidance and works with them. She even refers to them as "the people" in DA2 when Merill bows and she tells her to stand because "the people bend their knee far too easily." (Incidentally, this also seems to be in line with Solas's distaste of slavery and subjugation -- I wonder if Mythal was murdered for inciting a slave rebellion and the Dread Wolf continued her work?)

She does seem to have enough interaction with the Dalish at least to have been given a name by them "Ashabellenar" or however it's spelled.

It's been awhile since I read Broken Throne, but it was the Dalish who brought Maric to Flemeth after he and Loghain were caught. So I don't think it was just a once and a while kind of thing.

Funniest thing though. I keep thinking about what Flemeth says to Aveline after Wesley dies. "Without an end, there can be no peace."

I wonder if Mythal may have learned something from Flemeth as much as Flemeth learned from Mythal.