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[Qis]

I never got an indication in DAO that Morrigan herself wasn't human. She just didn't know where she came from.. whether she was kidnapped or her real daughter or not.

 

The way she talk about human is like she's not human. She talk about how her mother teach her, and guess what, the things she said are all about how being a human...something that human will do naturally...such as touching...will a human argue "what is the point of touching my hands?"...only an alien could be asking such question....

 

No one will talk about human in a way as if they are not human isn't it?

[Heimdall]

Except she's been possessing her daughters to live since then; so she doesn't have the original body she had during the Towers Age. But yeah, she was still described as a crone in The Stolen Throne, so I'm assuming that there has to be some sort of magic involved if Morrigan is her biological daughter. Of course, this wouldn't be unprecedented, as grey wardens are supposed to be sterile but they can still conceive with Morrigan if they do the dark ritual.

They aren't sterile, but their fertility/virility is so low that conceiving with a non-Warden is unlikely and virtually impossible with another warden.

[straykat]

The way she talk about human is like she's not human. She talk about how her mother teach her, and guess what, the things she said are all about being human...something that naturally human will do...such as touching...will a human argue "what is the point of touching my hands?"...only an alien could be asking such question....

 

No one will talk about human in a way as if they are not human isn't it?

 

A lot of people don't like touching. She's just introverted, lived in a swamp, and not used to social practices.

 

I don't even like her character, but that was one thing I identified with. Like people wanting to hug or shake my hands goodbye at a party. It's a chore.. like some damn ritual or something.

[Qis]

A lot of people don't like touching. She's just introverted, lived in a swamp, and not used to social practices.

 

I don't even like her character, but that was one thing I identified with. Like people wanting to hug or shake my hands goodbye at a party. It's a chore.. like some damn ritual or something.

 

Okay fine, but do people will argue about it? Before she said that she say "why all the touchings for a simple greeting?", she observe human behavior as if she's not human. Then she go on about Flemeth teach on how this and how that...things that human will naturally don't bother to think or teach because it is just natural.

 

Do mothers teach to her children about "how to..." for all things?

 

Another thing is her nature is of animal, not of human, there are human who live in the forest or the wilds but their nature is still human, she is not...it almost look like Flemeth is trying to tame her into become more human than...a dragon...perhaps?

 

Take a note that she does go in and out from the wilds to human society regularly...

[straykat]

Okay fine, but do people will argue about it? Before she said that she say "why all the touchings for a simple greeting?", she observe human behavior as if she's not human. Then she go on about Flemeth teach on how this and how that...things that human will naturally don't bother to think or teach because it is just natural.

 

Do mothers teach to her children about "how to..." for all things?

 

Another thing is her nature is of animal, not of human, there are human who live in the forest or the wilds but their nature is still human, she is not...it almost look like Flemeth is trying to tame her into become more human than...a dragon...perhaps?

 

Her shapeshifting is just magic. She's not an animal or animalistic. She's skilled with using the formlessness of the Fade, and applying it to the real world. All magic is about forgetting laws and typical forms and creating something new that isn't there. Mostly it's a basic use of the elements (fire, ice, stone). This is just an advanced version of it.

[Qis]

Her shapeshifting is just magic. She's not an animal or animalistic. She's skilled with using the formlessness of the Fade, and applying it to the real world. All magic is about forgetting laws and typical forms and creating something new that isn't there. Mostly it's a basic use of the elements (fire, ice, stone). This is just an advanced version of it.

 

Yes, but Flemeth is a dragon...ofcourse shapeshifting magic is magic, but i doubt that morphing into a dragon is magic as something you could learn...

 

• Shale: How many other forms can the swamp witch become?
• Morrigan: Several.
• Shale: Can it become a golem?
• Morrigan: Seeking companionship, are you?
• Shale: If it could become a golem, I simply wonder why it would not stay that way. It is a superior form.
• Morrigan: No, I cannot become a golem. I can learn to become animals, and each form must be learned anew.
• Shale: And how does it learn a form? Does it read about it somewhere?
• Morrigan: (Laughs) 'Tis not a talent one can read from books! You must copy a creature's soul!
• Shale: I do not understand.
• Morrigan: Nor should you. Rock is unchanging -- allow it to stay that way.

See...every shape must be learned....my theory is Flemeth is a dragon who learn about human and so she can turn into human, but happen to be she breed Morrigan a human hybrid, but Morrigan don't know how to become a dragon, it is something she must learn...

 

Magic was taught by dragons anyway, the Old Gods are dragons who teach men magic

[Heimdall]

Okay fine, but do people will argue about it? Before she said that she say "why all the touchings for a simple greeting?", she observe human behavior as if she's not human. Then she go on about Flemeth teach on how this and how that...things that human will naturally don't bother to think or teach because it is just natural.
 
Do mothers teach to her children about "how to..." for all things?
 
Another thing is her nature is of animal, not of human, there are human who live in the forest or the wilds but their nature is still human, she is not...it almost look like Flemeth is trying to tame her into become more human than...a dragon...perhaps?
 
Take a note that she does go in and out from the wilds to human society regularly...

She only started doing that later. Different cultures have different greeting, even the same cultures change through time. Some cultures greet by kissing, others through bowing, others through handshakes. Point being, Morrigan spent her whole early childhood cut off from anyone her own age with only Flemeth's oddness for company. If she sounds like an alien, its because human society is alien to her. She's accustomed herself, but she's still an outsider looking in.

We really do learn "how to..." just about everything from people around us, parents and peers. With just Flemeth, of course the nuances of Ferelden human interactions aren't intuitive to her.

[Qis]

I am more inclined to say she's not human, and she's just a product of something that not supposed to be...so Flemeth trained her to become human, and she must find a way herself to become a dragon...and i think that what makes DA:I quest regarding her make sense...she just don't understand her purpose until the revelation after she drink from the well...and become a dragon

[stop_him]

Morrigan's obviously just overly dramatic. I've not read the books, but the games have presented no real evidence that Flemeth mistreated Morrigan. 

[Heimdall]

I am more inclined to say she's not human, and she's just a product of something that not supposed to be...so Flemeth trained her to become human, and she must find a way herself to become a dragon...and i think that what makes DA:I quest regarding her make sense...she just don't understand her purpose until the revelation after she drink from the well...and become a dragon

...Do you understand that all the things that you're describing as indicating her not being human are social cues?  These are learned behaviors, not innate.  Nobody is born instinctively knowing these things.  She says so herself, Flemeth didn't even teach her how to eat at a table.

 

The Well taught her to turn into a dragon, that doesn't prove her to be a dragon, just that the ancient elves know a lot more than we do.

[Qis]

...Do you understand that all the things that you're describing as indicating her not being human are social cues?  These are learned behaviors, not innate.  Nobody is born instinctively knowing these things.  She says so herself, Flemeth didn't even teach her how to eat at a table.

 

The Well taught her to turn into a dragon, that doesn't prove her to be a dragon, just that the ancient elves know a lot more than we do.

 

The well is Mythal "thing" isn't it? Flemeth is Mythal, this voice of Mythal who teach Morrigan to become a dragon, so i suspect it is the same way to Flemeth... ("You must copy the creature's soul" - Morrigan said to Shale)

 

Flemeth want the Old God soul, because she's a dragon, the Old God, Mythal is the Old God....it is just that Morrigan don't understand the purpose

 

Maybe DA4 will show more...

[TheBlackAdder13]

The well is Mythal "thing" isn't it? Flemeth is Mythal, this voice of Mythal who teach Morrigan to become a dragon, so i suspect it is the same way to Flemeth... ("You must copy the creature's soul" - Morrigan said to Shale)

 

Flemeth want the Old God soul, because she's a dragon, the Old God, Mythal is the Old God....it is just that Morrigan don't understand the purpose

 

Maybe DA4 will show more...

 

Actually Morrigan is really a giant spider because it's the first shapeshifting form she has when you join her party. As such, human, bear, swarm of wasps, and dragon are all multiple shapes that the spider woman really takes.

[Qis]

Actually Morrigan is really a giant spider because it's the first shapeshifting form she has when you join her party. As such, human, bear, swarm of wasps, and dragon are all multiple shapes that the spider woman really takes.

 

That just one of the shapes she learned, she's a dragon-human hybrid who yet to learn how to become a dragon.

 

"You can never be a dragon!" - Flemeth to Hawke in DA2

[Iakus]

 
When Flemeth talks about Mythal though, it's usually in context of history.

"As I was betrayed, as she was betrayed, as the world was betrayed!" for example or "Mythal knew the hearts of men well before she came to me." The last's wording may be a little off but it's pretty much the gist of it.

If there's a distinction it's a very thin one, and in Flemeth's case it's certainly not Mythal giving Flemeth marching orders.

 

I suspect that whatever is going on with Flemeth and Mythal, it's not a standard possession thing, though.

 

If you take Fenris with you to Sundermount, he states flat out that Flemeth is not a mage, spirit or abomination.  Flemeth, as usual evades the question

Except she's been possessing her daughters to live since then; so she doesn't have the original body she had during the Towers Age. But yeah, she was still described as a crone in The Stolen Throne, so I'm assuming that there has to be some sort of magic involved if Morrigan is her biological daughter. Of course, this wouldn't be unprecedented, as grey wardens are supposed to be sterile but they can still conceive with Morrigan if they do the dark ritual.

Grey Wardens aren't completely sterile, though yes, fertility does take a nosedive.

 

And in the end, we don't know how Flemeth has survived.  Maybe she Body Surfs as Morrigan claimed, maybe she has a bit of the old Elvhen immortality.  Or hibernates like Fen'Harel did.  Maybe she's even a dragon, or drank dragon blood.  

 

She's a shapechanger, so who knows what her actual form even looks like.

[Heimdall]

The well is Mythal "thing" isn't it? Flemeth is Mythal, this voice of Mythal who teach Morrigan to become a dragon, so i suspect it is the same way to Flemeth... ("You must copy the creature's soul" - Morrigan said to Shale)

 

Flemeth want the Old God soul, because she's a dragon, the Old God, Mythal is the Old God....it is just that Morrigan don't understand the purpose

 

Maybe DA4 will show more...

Mythal isn't an old God.  She was an elven god, who were elves, Trespasser was abundantly clear on that.

 

The Well contained the collective knowledge of Mythal's priests, it wasn't the power of Mythal or the voice of Mythal.  The elves were clearly then able to somehow imitate a dragon's soul to take its form with their advanced knowledge.  Morrigan doesn't have to be part dragon to learn the same thing.

[TheBlackAdder13]

That just one of the shapes she learned, she's a dragon-human hybrid who yet to learn how to become a dragon.

 

"You can never be a dragon!" - Flemeth to Hawke in DA2

 

No! She's a giant spider I say! Prove otherwise!

[Ariella]

I suspect that whatever is going on with Flemeth and Mythal, it's not a standard possession thing, though.
 
If you take Fenris with you to Sundermount, he states flat out that Flemeth is not a mage, spirit or abomination.  Flemeth, as usual evades the question

Oh I grant you it's nonstandard. Spirits and demons are, for all intents and purposes, energy, I suppose, and they tend to be a lot less complex than humans or elves etc because they embody one specific concept. Mythal's how many thousands or years old and ruled over an advanced civilization. If it was a standard possession I'd be surprised.

But even then this is just a fragment, a shadow as it were. So she unites with Flemeth over their common betrayal, but it doesn't seems as Qun is suggesting that Flemeth is taking orders from Mythal. Even if there's any distinction between them, they're still working together, and not one doing the other's bidding.

Morrigan: (Laughs) 'Tis not a talent one can read from books! You must copy a creature's soul!

Qis, this isn't an uncommon trope when it comes to shapeshifting in fantasy. I've seen it several times. The Belgariad by David Eddings is a good example.

[Aren]

 

Mythal wasn't all fluff and love , she was ruling over an empire with slaves , tyrants etc...I think she got bitter when she was murdered though .She fell and saw the elves fell with her .She lost faith in mankind after this , 

in elfkind

[Aren]

Mythal had two elves duel for 100 years until one fell because of an argument between 2 of the Evanuris and was praised for her wisdom. I don't see that as motherly. I think she was very strict, slightly cruel and gave out tough love. If Solas says she was the best of them all, no wonder he rebelled.

 

Well she and Flemeth are one person, so in a way she is and as Solas said, once you are bound, you will always do her bidding. I think Flemeth is not as much Flemeth as she is Mythal in many scenes.

Mythal and her affiliates do not act in the interest of the actual world, try to  eliminate them was the best thing to do for my Warden.

[Qis]

Mythal isn't an old God.  She was an elven god, who were elves, Trespasser was abundantly clear on that.

 

The Well contained the collective knowledge of Mythal's priests, it wasn't the power of Mythal or the voice of Mythal.  The elves were clearly then able to somehow imitate a dragon's soul to take its form with their advanced knowledge.  Morrigan doesn't have to be part dragon to learn the same thing.

 

I think Mythal is an Old God, the dragon. The Evanuris are not, that's why they kill her.

[Aren]

But even then this is just a fragment, a shadow as it were. So she unites with Flemeth over their common betrayal

Flemeth was not betrayed.

She was the first one who cheated on her husband,i presumed that Connobar seek revenge toward Osen.

There wasn't a formal betrayal,since FLemeth also decided to cheat first on her husband and Connobar pursued the bard.

[TheBlackAdder13]

 

Flemeth was not betrayed.

She was the first one who cheated on her husband,i presumed that Connobar seek revenge toward Osen.

There wasn't a formal betrayal,since FLemeth also decided to cheat first on her husband and Connobar pursued the bard.

 

 

Uh...I think even in the standard version of the story Flemeth was abducted by the noble.

 

However, you get the real version of events from Morrigan in DA:O. Morrigan says that Flemeth actually had the idea to sell herself to Connobar so that Osen wouldn't have to be poor (or something, I forget the exact details). However, Connobar was still jealous and renigged on the deal, killing Osen. So yeah, Connobar definitely betrayed her.

[Heimdall]

I think Mythal is an Old God, the dragon. The Evanuris are not, that's why they kill her.

She was an Evanuris, there is no indication that she was any different than the others.

[sniper_arrow]

I think Mythal is an Old God, the dragon. The Evanuris are not, that's why they kill her.

 

Just wondering, was this based on the other theory that Mythal's essence were split into several pieces by the Evanuris?

 

As for the dragons, that is how she was represented. It's same way the wolf represents Fen'Harel and the owl to Andruil(?), among others.  

[Qis]

Just wondering, was this based on the other theory that Mythal's essence were split into several pieces by the Evanuris?

 

As for the dragons, that is how she was represented. It's same way the wolf represents Fen'Harel and the owl to Andruil(?), among others.  

 

I relate the Chantry teachig and Elven belief to draw my own conclusion that Mythal is one of the Old God, imprisoned because tricking men into worship them and they whisper to men to teach men magic. There is a colleration there with what we see regarding the Well of Sorrow...Mythal whisper to anyone who drink from the well

 

Kieran also mention about "dreams" when the "soul" or essence of the Old God taken away. We know that "dream" is The Fade, people go into The Fade when dreaming

 

We also learned that Flemeth have "horcrux", Hawke revive Flemeth at altar of Mythal. By what means Flemeth is able to do that i don't knoiw, i can only speculate it is the same like Voldermort making horcruxes.

 

Now relate with Dark Ritual of Morrigan, should a Archdemon is slain, the "soul" or "essence" can be trapped into new body yet to be born through sex ritual during the night before it being killed. Otherwise the Archdemon just travel to the nearest Darkspawn and live again. Corypheus did the same.

 

i suspect Andraste is also going through the same process, she got burned by the mages, but yet Andrastrian believe she being with Maker as the bride. That is only possible if her soul or essence is taken by the Maker in similar way Flemeth taking Archdemon essence from Kieran. In short, Andraste might be incarnation of an Old God. And maybe Mythal is Andraste in other form.

 

Kolgrim Cult believe Andraste is a dragon

 

Both the Chantry and the Elven story have similar point....a woman got betrayed and killed. Andraste got betrayed and killed by Mages, Mythal got betrayed and killed by Evanuris. Andraste have a husband named Maferath who is jealous. I am not sure the relationship between Mythal and Fen'Harel but it seems to be like they are lovers

 

For me, it is all about "soul" or "essence" of the Old God can jump into bodies and appear to be whatever they appear to be in history. Age old characters continuing their struggles and conflict in new body through incarnations. That is why the similar things happen in different cultures...but it is all lead to the Black City....