117 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

 his right to the regency is superseded by the higher ranking teyrn.

 

 

I don't recall there being a ranking system among Teyrns.

 

 

Banns should start allying with him.

 

Not really.  As Fereldan's political system is kinda weird in that the Banns expect their butts kissed before agreeing to aid you. Even the Monarch has to placate them. One of the main reasons the Banns rejected Loghain wasn't really due to Cailan's death but because he was demanding their aid.

 

The Teyrn of Highever is a higher rank than the Teyrn of Gwaren. The codex on Highever states this, and it states that the Couslands are the second most powerful family in Ferelden, with the King's being first.

 

I believe the codex addressed the Couslands as second to the King because Teryns as a whole are second to the King.  http://dragonage.wik...ty_and_nobility However, I would agree that the Couslands are second to the King due to their noble blood on top of the Teyrin title, whereas Loghain is a commoner. And I agree that if Bryce was alive he would be considered Regent before he walked through the door. But I don't think there is a ranking system within the Teyrns. If you're named one, then your title is second to the King.

 

 

I agree that the regency was not a sure thing, but not because the HN did not deserve it by law. The recognition was prevented because of the circumstances. The HN was not known to have survived, Highever was in disarray, Loghain was claiming the regency, Rendon was trying to claim the title of Teyrn of Highever (though the codex states this was in question in the HN playthrough), and the banns were engaged in civil war with Loghain and his allies.

 

 

I agree, but I also think that without all those things the Noble Warden would be a tough sell due to him being a Warden and a new Teryn.  I'm sure Teagon and his group would accept just to keep Loghain out of the chair but I'm willing to bet that he(Teagon) would be expected to be the real power until a monarch is chosen. 

 

 

I don't think there would be a Landsmeet to choose the regent. I think the Seneschal of Denerim probably would have contacted the Cousland and requested that he take on the role until the Landsmeet is called to elect the next monarch. If no reply is made, then the Teyrn of Gwaren would be contacted.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ics_of_Ferelden

 

I don't see how the human noble would have been chosen as Regent by anything other than a landsmeet. I'm sure one was called right after Cailan died.

[CardButton]

Meh, I always keep him a Warden, I'm sure he's happier following in Duncan's footsteps anyway ... plus as much of a ****** as she is, Anora makes a better world leader than Allistair.  Also, keeping him a Warden makes the Hawke decision so much more compelling! 

[In Exile]

There isn't much in game in DAO except the ending slides which states that they could either vie for power or usher in a Golden Age. This seems to suggests that for this to happen both parties would be active in ruling. Anora also made the Warden the general of her armies. So the Warden has military power. Then Anora let it slip when she announced the Warden as Fereldan's King. In awakening Anora tells the Warden that she regrets pulling him away from Court (probably a lie), then Loghain mentions that Anora finally got him away from Court. And when you consider the fact that he is a Tyerin and is already in good graces with most of the Banns (depending on if he won the Landsmeet in the dialogue) it would be extremely difficult for Anora to just brush aside his opinions.

A royal power struggle would have been pretty awesome. Especially for the Warden that did the dark ritual and therefore has an heir. I would imagine that it would be pretty easy to oust Anora since her being barren seems to be a big negative with the nobility. I sort of headcanon that my Warden is curing the taint so he could secure the throne for his mage kid. Why not? better than sitting in some parallel mirror world forever. lol!

I think you misunderstood. I'm not contest that the Warden ends up involved in government. I'm asking if we have any indication the Landsmeet chose to invest the warden with any authority or if that comes from Anora. Because it sounds to me like that all comes from Anora. The examples - she makes you leader of the armies - supports that she was the one invested with power. Here I ignore the actual game content where you have no say or power and take at face value the grant of power.

Anora doesn't say you don't get to rule. She just says you're subordinate to her.

[Secret Rare]

In awakening Anora tells the Warden that she regrets pulling him away from Court (probably a lie),

 

 

Of course it was a lie ,since her childhood Anora always was power hungry and since she didn't had any alternative than marry the warden to be crowned sovereign Queen she did it.

Threw her husband to the Disciples of darkspawn in the hope that so he could die is not a thought that should be disregarded....

[Donquijote and 59 others]

If the warden post landsmeet ask too Anora a way to annul the marriage she imply that one good way would be for the warden to throw himself on the Archdemon

 claws or maybe it was jowls,imply that the shrew knew about the US just as she did of the joining.

[Hazegurl]

I think you misunderstood. I'm not contest that the Warden ends up involved in government. I'm asking if we have any indication the Landsmeet chose to invest the warden with any authority or if that comes from Anora. Because it sounds to me like that all comes from Anora. The examples - she makes you leader of the armies - supports that she was the one invested with power. Here I ignore the actual game content where you have no say or power and take at face value the grant of power.

Anora doesn't say you don't get to rule. She just says you're subordinate to her.

Nothing other than the Warden saying he and Anora would rule together and all the nobles accepting it. 

 

"I shall rule at Queen Anora's side, as her husband."

 

Anora says the Warden would be subordinate to her during a private convo after the fact, not in front of all the nobles as a condition of them accepting his proposal to marry her. It's just Anora trying to keep him in check more than her word actually being law on the matter. This is why the ending slides mention the possibility that they could end up butting heads or working together.  Because Anora doesn't really have the power to make the noble Warden stand down and be subordinate to her if he chooses to press the matter, he has lots of political clout even without her armies and boon.  He belongs to the most powerful noble family in the country.

 

I agree that Anora is the official Monarch, I just don't agree with the notion that the Noble Warden is a powerless boob who is forced to comply.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't recall there being a ranking system among Teyrns.

 

Not really.  As Fereldan's political system is kinda weird in that the Banns expect their butts kissed before agreeing to aid you. Even the Monarch has to placate them. One of the main reasons the Banns rejected Loghain wasn't really due to Cailan's death but because he was demanding their aid.

 

I believe the codex addressed the Couslands as second to the King because Teryns as a whole are second to the King.  http://dragonage.wik...ty_and_nobility However, I would agree that the Couslands are second to the King due to their noble blood on top of the Teyrin title, whereas Loghain is a commoner. And I agree that if Bryce was alive he would be considered Regent before he walked through the door. But I don't think there is a ranking system within the Teyrns. If you're named one, then your title is second to the King.

 

I agree, but I also think that without all those things the Noble Warden would be a tough sell due to him being a Warden and a new Teryn.  I'm sure Teagon and his group would accept just to keep Loghain out of the chair but I'm willing to bet that he(Teagon) would be expected to be the real power until a monarch is chosen. 

 

http://dragonage.wik...ics_of_Ferelden

 

I don't see how the human noble would have been chosen as Regent by anything other than a landsmeet. I'm sure one was called right after Cailan died.

 

Yes. The Highever codex states the Couslands are the second most powerful family only to the king.

 

That's how it works for being elected monarch, but a regent is just one who keeps order until a monarch can be elected. That's just an interim role, and the one best suited to do that is the highest ranking teyrn. Teagan brought up Ostagar. That was the only complaint made in that scene. There may have been other complaints, like that Loghain was raised up from a commoner, but I think Teagan's "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it" line was in response to Loghain's direct demands. Had he approached them as a teyrn looking to just keep order and stability until the Landsmeet could convene, I think the banns would have honored his title. But Loghain was going beyond what was allowed of him by law.

 

It's more than title. The King is essentially a teyrn as well, but his domain is all of Ferelden. Denerim was a teynir at one time, but was reduced to an arling when Calanhad became king.

 

I think being a Warden would only help, not hinder the HN. Most nobles respect the Grey Wardens and see it as a high calling. His lack of experience might be a problem, but so long as he can persuade the banns that he can fulfill the duties, he should be fine. Especially if Loghain's honor is in question. Plus, the Couslands were spoken well of outside of Highever, and the younger Cousland was speculated to succeed Bryce over Fergus. But I don't think anyone would look to Teagan for anything. He was just the Bann of Rainesfere at the time, a small province between Lake Calenhad and the Frostback Mountains.

 

I don't see any point in a Landsmeet electing a regent, unless the King died and left a child heir whom the Bannorn may want in the future. So they elect a regent to rule for the family until the heir comes of age to run for election. But in the scenario of DA:O there was no clear candidate except the Teyrns. So I think they would just elect the new monarch at any Landsmeet. I don't think there was a Landsmeet after Ostagar. Not all banns could attend due to the crisis created by the loss at Ostagar.

[Dai Grepher]

I agree that Anora is the official Monarch, I just don't agree with the notion that the Noble Warden is a powerless boob who is forced to comply.

 

Either he's a monarch as well, or he is a powerless boob who is forced to comply. It's one or the other.
 

[Hazegurl]

Yes. The Highever codex states the Couslands are the second most powerful family only to the king.

 

 

That does not mean that there is a ranking system among the Teryrns. It only means that due to the title of Teryn and their noble blood and power, they are second to the King in power and influence.

 

Teagan brought up Ostagar. That was the only complaint made in that scene. There may have been other complaints, like that Loghain was raised up from a commoner, but I think Teagan's "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it" line was in response to Loghain's direct demands. Had he approached them as a teyrn looking to just keep order and stability until the Landsmeet could convene, I think the banns would have honored his title. But Loghain was going beyond what was allowed of him by law.

 

That line by Teagon does not have anything to do with Loghain claiming Regency.  He was upset due to a number of reasons we already know, but the line itself has more to do with how Fereldan politics work.

 

"Some Fereldan vassals must be goaded instead of ordered--swayed, not ruled. Vassals owe military obligations to their liege, yet often deny even sworn oaths and signed contracts. In contrast, the vassals expect their liege's protection despite provocation otherwise. A successful Fereldan liege applies force, persuasion, and duplicity in equal measure."http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Ferelden

 

No King, regent, or Teryn have a right to demand anything of their vassals. Not even the King has true power because everything must be supported by the freeholders. In other words, Fereldan politics is just stupid and is every bit as chaotic as everyone believes it to be, but it is a chaos that works for them.  This is why I disagree that a Regent would have been chosen by a Seneschal privately.  I agree that Bryce would have been first choice but I disagree that it would have been done without a proper landsmeet called so that all the nobles can attend, assess the situation, and to see if everyone or mostly everyone would be on board with any decisions made.  After all, there is a pretty big chance that the Regent could be crowned King anyway.  During the first landsmeet ingame Loghain already had a few strikes against him. He left Cailan, declared himself regent privately with only the backings of two people: Anora and Howe, and was a commoner.  However, He probably would have gotten more nobles on his side if he did not demand their aid on top of all of that, something that went against everything Fereldan stood for after the occupation by Orlais.

 

 

I think being a Warden would only help, not hinder the HN. Most nobles respect the Grey Wardens and see it as a high calling.

 

 

I find that difficult to believe in a country that exiled the Wardens and generally regarded them with suspicion and mistrust.

 

 

 

 

Either he's a monarch as well, or he is a powerless boob who is forced to comply. It's one or the other.

 

I don't understand. The Warden not being an official monarch doesn't mean he is in any way a powerless boob. Anora ruled beside Cailan (the official monarch) but after his death she couldn't just proclaim herself monarch and take over. The Warden would be in the same situation.  But we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Dai Grepher]

That does not mean that there is a ranking system among the Teryrns. It only means that due to the title of Teryn and their noble blood and power, they are second to the King in power and influence.

 

That line by Teagon does not have anything to do with Loghain claiming Regency.  He was upset due to a number of reasons we already know, but the line itself has more to do with how Fereldan politics work.

 

"Some Fereldan vassals must be goaded instead of ordered--swayed, not ruled. Vassals owe military obligations to their liege, yet often deny even sworn oaths and signed contracts. In contrast, the vassals expect their liege's protection despite provocation otherwise. A successful Fereldan liege applies force, persuasion, and duplicity in equal measure."http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Ferelden

 

No King, regent, or Teryn have a right to demand anything of their vassals. Not even the King has true power because everything must be supported by the freeholders. In other words, Fereldan politics is just stupid and is every bit as chaotic as everyone believes it to be, but it is a chaos that works for them.  This is why I disagree that a Regent would have been chosen by a Seneschal privately.  I agree that Bryce would have been first choice but I disagree that it would have been done without a proper landsmeet called so that all the nobles can attend, assess the situation, and to see if everyone or mostly everyone would be on board with any decisions made.  After all, there is a pretty big chance that the Regent could be crowned King anyway.  During the first landsmeet ingame Loghain already had a few strikes against him. He left Cailan, declared himself regent privately with only the backings of two people: Anora and Howe, and was a commoner.  However, He probably would have gotten more nobles on his side if he did not demand their aid on top of all of that, something that went against everything Fereldan stood for after the occupation by Orlais.

 

I find that difficult to believe in a country that exiled the Wardens and generally regarded them with suspicion and mistrust.

 

I don't understand. The Warden not being an official monarch doesn't mean he is in any way a powerless boob. Anora ruled beside Cailan (the official monarch) but after his death she couldn't just proclaim herself monarch and take over. The Warden would be in the same situation.  But we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

Well maybe there isn't an official "rank", as teyrn is the same title regardless. However, the Highever Teyrn is more powerful than the Gwaren Teyrn. This is likely because of land. Highever encompasses the Coastlands, including Amaranthine, Bann Loren's lands, and probably Waking Sea and the Western Hills. Whereas Gwaren has only itself, Lothering (destroyed), maybe Dragon's Peak, maybe South Reach (which always supports the Warden), and maybe some minor ones on the southern edge of the Bannorn. So even if a teyrn is only one rank, like a general (but even generals have stars), then it is still a question of power and lands. In which case the Cousland still wins, especially if he takes the Circle early on. So the bottom line is that for whatever reason, the Couslands are the most powerful after the King dies. I think this is why Loghain needed the Couslands out of the way before Ostagar, so he would be the most powerful ranking official in Ferelden.

 

Teagan's prior line was "You have declared yourself Queen Anora's regent...", and then pointed out his withdrawal at Ostagar being questionable. Loghain was demanding blind loyalty and was not answering the questions about Ostagar. I don't think it had anything to do with Ferelden politics. They were in a time of crisis. That wasn't the time for butt-kissing. I think they all knew something had to be done, but many saw Loghain as part of the problem.

 

I just don't see why a Landsmeet would bother electing a temporary ruler when they can just elect the ruler right there and then. A Teyrn wanting to be regent would just give a unifying speech, and then take over the required duties.

 

But Maric brought the order back in to Ferelden. The people respected him.

 

Because Anora was not an official monarch with Cailan. She was powerless, except in cases where Cailan granted her administrative power. A consort acting as admin for a monarch is not the same as having power. My argument is that the Hero is the official King, and has power of his own deriving from the banns who elected him and Anora.

[GoldenGail3]

Either he's a monarch as well, or he is a powerless boob who is forced to comply. It's one or the other.

I actually do think it'd be interesting if Anora and my King Cousland only had his younger, weaker sons while Morrigan got the strong, warrior sorts, I think that'd be all be a great big lol to Anora's face.

[In Exile]

Nothing other than the Warden saying he and Anora would rule together and all the nobles accepting it.

"I shall rule at Queen Anora's side, as her husband."

Anora says the Warden would be subordinate to her during a private convo after the fact, not in front of all the nobles as a condition of them accepting his proposal to marry her. It's just Anora trying to keep him in check more than her word actually being law on the matter. This is why the ending slides mention the possibility that they could end up butting heads or working together. Because Anora doesn't really have the power to make the noble Warden stand down and be subordinate to her if he chooses to press the matter, he has lots of political clout even without her armies and boon. He belongs to the most powerful noble family in the country.

I agree that Anora is the official Monarch, I just don't agree with the notion that the Noble Warden is a powerless boob who is forced to comply.

Without seeing the scene I can't comment on it. But my recollection of it is that your marriage is not a thing approved by the landsmeet. Rather it's an argument in favour of her election - pick Anora over Loghain because I come with her. My point has always been that the Wardens power seems to me to be less officially sanctioned, and hence the title of Prince Consort is entirely fitting, rather than King. Also stupid and incoherent since Anora gets to be Queen, but you know. It's Bioware.

[Dai Grepher]

^That would certainly explain why you're incorrect about who rules in that case. There was no such implication here. "I shall rule" is the key phrase. Or if Loghain is executed by Alistair, then the phrase is different, but equally in favor of the Cousland being a monarch with Anora.

 

The Wardens have nothing to do with it. Alistair is a Warden, yet he can be elected king while also marrying Anora. BioWare should be consistent. And while I personally will never throw the "equality" card, BioWare is hypocritical to champion "equality" but then call the M!Cousland "prince" while calling the F!Cousland "queen" even though the situation is exactly the same in the Landsmeet.

[In Exile]

^That would certain explain why you're incorrect about who rules in that case. There was no such implication here. "I shall rule" is the key phrase. Or if Loghain is executed by Alistair, then the phrase is different, but equally in favor of the Cousland being a monarch with Anora.

 

The Wardens have nothing to do with it. Alistair is a Warden, yet he can be elected king while also marrying Anora. BioWare should be consistent. And while I personally will never throw the "equality" card, BioWare is hypocritical to champion "equality" but then call the M!Cousland "prince" while calling the F!Cousland "queen" even though the situation is exactly the same in the Landsmeet.

 

That's irrelevant. If the motion before the Landsmeet is "Anora is invested as Queen", then she's the chosen ruler. That her partner - which she chooses - has whatever rights typically attach to that role is a totally separate question from the Landsmeet choosing a ruler. 

 

As to the Wardens, an apostrophe is missing. I meant to say Warden's. 

[Secret Rare]

Being a Queen or a king into a nation whom power is received by the freeholders isn't that relevant.

The one who held the true power is the one who possess more lands,riches and more connections to the bann and to me Anora and the warden are at 50% each.

or maybe the warden has the little advantage that he has a Theirin while his brother has the other

[Dai Grepher]

That's irrelevant. If the motion before the Landsmeet is "Anora is invested as Queen", then she's the chosen ruler. That her partner - which she chooses - has whatever rights typically attach to that role is a totally separate question from the Landsmeet choosing a ruler.

The motion before the Landsmeet is "who shall rule Ferelden"? The joint-rule answer is "I shall rule at Queen Anora's side as her husband". The Warden's official recognition is never in question.

 

Anora doesn't get to choose her partner, as indicated by the option to ask if you could get out of the marriage if you wanted. The Landsmeet agreed to her marriage to the M!Cousland, and for them to rule jointly.

[In Exile]

The motion before the Landsmeet is "who shall rule Ferelden"? The joint-rule answer is "I shall rule at Queen Anora's side as her husband". The Warden's official recognition is never in question.

 

Anora doesn't get to choose her partner, as indicated by the option to ask if you could get out of the marriage if you wanted. The Landsmeet agreed to her marriage to the M!Cousland, and for them to rule jointly.

 

No. The motion before the Landsmeet was whether to support Loghain, and if not, to invest a new Monarch of Ferelden. There's no official recognition for the Warden. This is why, for example, the Warden is not crowned or invested with any royal authority after the Landsmeet, regardless of whether it's Alistair or Anora, but Alistair or Anora become the presumptive King and (the true) Queen immediately after the Landsmeet. 

[Dai Grepher]

I hope I don't have to go through the Landsmeet step by step beneath a YouTube video. As we know, Loghain was making a claim for himself to be elected king. Eamon was observed arguing against that notion. Loghain arrived and brushed off Eamon's speech and accused him of trying to put a puppet on the throne.

 

Then the main event began. The argument was between Loghain and the human noble male (in this scenario). Loghain accused the Wardens of wanting to let Orlais in to possibly conquer the country. The M!Cousland countered, Loghain made another accusation, and then the M!Cousland brought up a few of Loghain's crimes to discredit him.

 

The Landsmeet sided with the M!Cousland. Loghain did not accept this. M!Cousland called for an honorable resolution. The banns agreed to a duel and to abide by the outcome. They dueled. M!Cousland won the duel and thus the full support of the banns.

 

So, with the full support of the banns, the M!Cousland declared that he would rule at Queen Anora's side and that they would marry.

 

The motion before the Landsmeet was who would rule Ferelden. As far as we know, the only people mentioned or eluded to as candidates were Loghain and Alistair. The M!Cousland had full power in deciding who would rule. He made his choice, it was joint-rule between himself and Anora as husband and wife, king and queen.

 

If your argument is that there was no official recognition for the M!Cousland during the discussions, then the same applies to Anora as well, who also was not mentioned as a candidate during the discussions. She is not mentioned until the M!Cousland declares himself and her as joint-rulers.

 

Anora is not crowned either if you'll pay attention to the scenes. But if we are to take the pre-rendered scene of Anora bowing before the Revered Mother, then the reason the Hero is not shown is because it is a pre-rendered scene. It could not have possibly included a custom character. BioWare made one for Alistair and Anora, one for Alistair alone, and one for Anora alone. And if you want to use this as some sort of canon proof, then you would have to apply it against the F!Cousland who marries Alistair and yet is still referred to as "Queen" somehow.

 

As for royal authority, the King Cousland absolutely has royal authority. He is stated to preside over matters of court. At the end of Awakening he is stated to have returned to court to resume his duties. A consort has no such duties. In the Origins epilogue it is stated that he and Anora are rumored to usher in a golden age provided they do not vie for control of the throne. A prince-consort with no royal authority would not be able to vie for control of a throne he has no authority over.

 

You hold two equally contradicting thoughts in your mind simultaneously. How can Anora be the true queen immediately after the Landsmeet but the M!Cousland not be king at the same time? Especially when it was his statement that made Anora queen, and when his statement included the declaration of himself as ruling with Anora? How does a statement of joint-rule apply to only one of the two people mentioned? Does the statement of joint-rule between Alistair and Anora apply only to Anora in your mind?