19 réponses à ce sujet

[Nick The Noodle]

I'm sure there are plenty of builds out there, but have been trying to build a level 10 PM pre Epic, with the minimum of other class levels.

 

After numerous deaths with attempted builds on normally double modules, I've just re-started the OC with a L3 Wiz, and then will attempt to gain 10 levels straight as a PM.

 

The build I used to use took most PM levels at Epic level.  In the OC, I went Wiz L1 (to get the rod of frost and wands of sleep and fireballs in the intro), monk at level 2 for the tumble bonus, wiz 3 at level 4 and PM at level 5.  Then straight wiz until level 16, giving me a L14 Wiz/L1PM/L1Mk.  At 17-19 I took 3 levels of monk, and a 2nd level of PM at level 20.  Although the animate dead ability is pretty much useless, a PM at level 20 now gives 3 attacks per round, number of spells cast as if L15, but at L14 ability.  While its magical firepower is less than a straight L20 wizard, it's far tougher with at least 6ac bonus, an extra attack, a shed load of useful abilities (such as evasion and the cleave feat), up to 20 extra hps, a few more skill points, and better saves.  Persuade, tumble, hide and move silient are also class skills at points in this progression, which you can dump unused skill points (from high int) as you rise in levels.  Quite frankly, I found it a very rewarding and interesting character comparred with many other builds.

 

The big problem with a Wiz3/PM1-10 progression is that it had neither the hitting hard enough, nor tough enough attributes.  There was a surge of power at Wiz3/PM10 when the PC gained 2 attacks per round, and got the death touch.  Immunity to critical's was useful too.  However the lack of spell power was not compensated by actual abilities.  I also found spell selection became mundane, ie choosing spells that are not effected too much by caster level, ie spells such as endure elements and combust.  In fact, most fight tend to see me sneaking around, turning invisible before a fight, and then using summoning spells and innate abilities for monsters to do  to do the fighting for me.  Its boring and repetitive.

 

However, I may be playing the class all wrong, and looking for tips.

 

 

 

 

[Nick The Noodle]

Sort of a Spoiler Alert but isn't.

 

Another issue, which I've suspected before, but seems to have proven itself?

 

After dealing with The Peninsular, the main treasure chest has always given me a +1 weapon.  This time it gave me a basic club worth 1gp.  I was a L3 Wiz / L3 PM at this point.  The L3 Wiz / L1-9 PM relies on kit to replace its lack of spell power.  50% of the time, from PM L1-9 it has -1 reduced BAB, compared with a straight wizard.  This hitting power is really bad.

 

It appears that treasure is linked to your highest class level, not actual level?  

[rogueknight333]

Palemaster Levels cripple casting power in return for granting AC bonuses and immunities, so they will generally be more useful to a spellsword-type character or something of that nature, or perhaps even more so to a purely nominal wizard who is primarily functioning as a melee tank, than to a dedicated caster. You can get away with doing it in a sufficiently easy module, but taking lots of Palemaster levels early is rarely optimal. Your best strategies for success as a Palemaster are to:

 

1) Wait until you have accumulated enough Wizard levels that you can cast a good number of spells at a reasonable level of power. Ideally this would mean waiting until epic levels, but failing that wait until you are at least Lvl 5 or so before switching over to PM, and the longer you can reasonably put it off the better. Once you have a decent number of Wizard Lvls and 10 PM Levels an effective strategy can be to cast Elemental Shield & Acid Sheath and just let enemies kill themselves hitting you, as PM's immunity to crits makes such a plan noticeably more survivable than it might otherwise be. However, this would really work better in a module series taking you to a higher level than the OC does.

 

2) Add in a few Fighter Levels (or other warrior class) and play primarily as a warrior, perhaps backed up by the occasional buffing spell.

 

Sort of a Spoiler Alert but isn't.

 

Another issue, which I've suspected before, but seems to have proven itself?

 

After dealing with The Peninsular, the main treasure chest has always given me a +1 weapon.  This time it gave me a basic club worth 1gp.  I was a L3 Wiz / L3 PM at this point.  The L3 Wiz / L1-9 PM relies on kit to replace its lack of spell power.  50% of the time, from PM L1-9 it has -1 reduced BAB, compared with a straight wizard.  This hitting power is really bad.

 

It appears that treasure is linked to your highest class level, not actual level?  

 

As you say, not much of a spoiler but just in case someone considers it such:

 

Spoiler

Looking at the relevant script in the Toolset (briefly, so it might be I have missed something) it seems that it will automatically give you a +1 Weapon (or better, depending on Lvl) of the appropriate type if you have taken a Weapon Focus Feat. If you have no Weapon Focus feats, it will give you generic weapons based on class & level and for some classes (including Wizard) this weapon might indeed be non-magical if your level is too low. It only takes account of the levels you have acquired in base classes, and ignores Prestige classes such as Palemaster (not surprising in an OC script, since the Prestige classes were introduced by the expansions).

[MagicalMaster]

Can confirm the "spoiler" that Rogueknight mentioned.

He's also completely correct about Palemaster crippling your caster power -- so you either need to take it AFTER you have sufficient caster power or on a physical combat character (who uses it for defensive buffs).

[Drewskie]

The tyrant fog zombie you can get at level 5 (wiz3/pm2) can be useful for low level play.  I wouldn't take any more than two levels right away though.

[Shadooow]

Can confirm the "spoiler" that Rogueknight mentioned.

He's also completely correct about Palemaster crippling your caster power -- so you either need to take it AFTER you have sufficient caster power or on a physical combat character (who uses it for defensive buffs).

or install community patch and enable PM caster level bonus switch

[Grani]

or install community patch and enable PM caster level bonus switch

 

I assume this switch makes PM levels count towards caster levels of wiz/sorc spells? If that's the case (as I assume it is), is there any reason for anyone to choose a pure wizard over a wizard/PM build, aside from these spells you learn on level-up (as you can learn them from scrolls as a PM anyway)?

[Shadooow]

I assume this switch makes PM levels count towards caster levels of wiz/sorc spells? If that's the case (as I assume it is), is there any reason for anyone to choose a pure wizard over a wizard/PM build, aside from these spells you learn on level-up (as you can learn them from scrolls as a PM anyway)?

Its not 1caster level per 1level of PM as would many thought but 1 per 2 which copy how PM affect spellslots. Also you wont get any spelluses when combining PM with sorc. Wiz wont get 2 spells at lv up which might be a problem in an environment without scrolls. Also PM is evil, for me I prefer playing good guys anyway even tho PM is very useful.

 

This switch wont make big difference for a lvl 10 builds which is most common, but can make viable builds with more PM which normally arent as effective.

[MagicalMaster]

Its not 1caster level per 1level of PM as would many thought but 1 per 2 which copy how PM affect spellslots. Also you wont get any spelluses when combining PM with sorc. Wiz wont get 2 spells at lv up which might be a problem in an environment without scrolls. Also PM is evil, for me I prefer playing good guys anyway even tho PM is very useful.

Thought it was non-good? Rather than evil?

By "you won't get any spell uses when combining PM with sorc" you mean "my patch does nothing for sorcs?" Or that it gets neither spell uses nor spell slots, but technically higher spell level (so a 5 Sorc/10 PM casts a level 10 Fireball for 10d6 damage)?

[Shadooow]

Thought it was non-good? Rather than evil?

By "you won't get any spell uses when combining PM with sorc" you mean "my patch does nothing for sorcs?" Or that it gets neither spell uses nor spell slots, but technically higher spell level (so a 5 Sorc/10 PM casts a level 10 Fireball for 10d6 damage)?

CPP allows to enable "caster level for PM calculation" nothing more. Even it should be this way normally its still only optional.

 

Question isnt does it has any sense not to build PM, but if it has more sense to build more than 10 PM which before didnt (except for the rogue/PM build for specific tasks in PWs).

[Dante2377]

CPP allows to enable "caster level for PM calculation" nothing more. Even it should be this way normally its still only optional.

 

Question isnt does it has any sense not to build PM, but if it has more sense to build more than 10 PM which before didnt (except for the rogue/PM build for specific tasks in PWs).

 

There's plenty of reason for taking more than 10 PM on level 40 PWs - melee PCs really like the extra AC, crit immunity, and then access to Epic spells (particularly EMA for another 5 AC and Epic warding for the DR).  Something strength based like Fighter 20 Bard 4 PM 16 gives +10 PM AC, crit immunity, and then epic spells give another 5 AC from dodge (assuming you're already at at least +5 elsewhere) + epic warding.

 

 If you build it right (pre epic Fighter 15, bard 3, PM 2), you can get all the usual strength based goodies (IKD, BF, Cleave, IC, WS, toughness) as well as pre-epic saving throw feats, and then in epic you still have enough feats for EWF, EP, either EWS or Armor Skin, and all 6 Great Strength in addition to Epic Mage Armor, Epic Warding (or any of the other epic spells with your 7th general epic feat) and an epic energy resist.  With starting stats of (Human) Str 18, Dex10, Con 14, Wis 8, Int 14, Cha98, you end up with AB of 44, so nice warrior AB, but with 13-15 pts better AC than a standard str-based warrior with tumble dumps and you get 223 skillpoints and 463 HP.  That's a pretty nice tank there.  You can also build some powerful Bard RDD PM, some of which are Bard 5 RDD 15 PM 20 (the lack of 4th attack isn't particularly consequential).  

 

I see PM far more in melee builds than in casting builds on PWs.  

 

Dante

[Nick The Noodle]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I started getting +1 items when I hit L3 Wiz / L4 PM.  At L3 Wiz / L6 PM I started getting really useful items like scabbard of blessing's and belt of inertial barriers.

Rods of the Ghost have saved me several times.

 

I'm on my third attempt  to play a Wiz 3 / PM 1-10.  The first was a human necromancer.  The feats you automatically gained at L1, ie necromancy spell focus and greater spell focus were useless.  The second was a Dwarf wizard.  This proved a better choice as tougher, and the charisma penalty fits with the class imo.  Hitting power was still poor.

 

My third attempt is going pretty well to date.  I'm using an Elven wizard, an illusionist but without spell focus in illusion.  Up to level 3 I played as a pure wizard, but once PM levels kicked in, I played more as a rogue.  It works quite well, especially since cloaks of elvenkind pop up quite often early in the game, with hide and move silient being class skills.  I take a Pixie familiar for OL and DT abilities, and both knock and find trap spells are not level dependent for effect.  Sneaking up on someone to paralyse them often works, but before L6 PM, I was doing the same thing with a combust spell..  In the OC you are also able to upgrade a rapier and a longsword against targets you can critical, and non critical respectively.  With magic weapon, flame blade and bulls strength spells running, each hit, if you can hit, is pretty destructive, so my first two feats were power attack and cleave to help make up for a lack of attacks.  Since resting is not restricted, I will often attempt several strength spells to get a high score.  This is necessary to survive.

 

I learnt to live with the potential loss of experience when summoning/animating undead.  Once I found any area with a foe to attack, I'll retreat, use the ability, and sneak back in.  I'll wait for the summoned creature to die, or if it is on the verge of killing the enemy, unsummon it, and kill it yourself.

 

I'm still in part one at the moment, the Blacklake district, and the lack of spells I can purchase is crippling.   

 

Two features I believe could be added to the PM without making the class uber.  The first is that the PM automatically learns all necromancer spells up to the level it can cast.  The second is that PM caster levels count towards effects of Necro spells.  At present I cast negative energy burst as a L3 wizard, which is both pathetic in effect, and also means I don't take that spell which feels wrong.  

[Nick The Noodle]

or install community patch and enable PM caster level bonus switch

How do you do this please?

[Shadooow]

How do you do this please?

readme - PC Widget Tool

[Nick The Noodle]

readme - PC Widget Tool

It appears I need to reset a o to a 1?

Which file is it in please?

[Nick The Noodle]

Just finished part 1 at L3 Wiz / L7 PM.  On entry to part 2 I found that many spells I wanted were not for sale, so saved the character and went shopping for spells in another module. Picked up keen edge, enervation, bestow curse and contagion as fitting with the character concept.  Just started part 2 with those extras.

 

The character concept is now to buff up, sneak up on an unsuspecting foe, cast a malicious spell on the target and then beat it up.  Animates and summons are now used as decoys to lure minor foes away from bosses.  Its quite fun to play in the OC, except I had to cheat to get some extra L3 and L4 spells.

 

NB, with a +1 int ring and Thayian helm, my IQ is currently 22 (started Elf S14, D16, C11, I17(19), W8, Ch8).  I've started taking ghoul touch as its DC is 18 compared with the current undead graft ability with DC 17 (at L7 PM).  I can cast the spell from surprise without risking an attack of opportunity and save the class features for when a melee actually starts. 

[Nick The Noodle]

readme - PC Widget Tool

Just done it.  Thanks.

[AndrueD]

Two features I believe could be added to the PM without making the class uber.  The first is that the PM automatically learns all necromancer spells up to the level it can cast.  The second is that PM caster levels count towards effects of Necro spells.  At present I cast negative energy burst as a L3 wizard, which is both pathetic in effect, and also means I don't take that spell which feels wrong.  

Hi-level PM not made to be caster so take many more mage levels else just tank.  Most use just for AC and crit immune where there no crit immune gear on server.

 

Take all spell pen feats +2 to +6.  It like adding wiz levels to caster level vs SR. Make plan what SR the toon want to beat in module then take enough wiz lvls to get that high.  PM level count for duration, though. Some PW change how PM levels count for casting lvl.  Some make half PM levels count.  Some make all PM levels count.  Am thinking the PRC have classes that make special PM casting, too.  Maybe try those.

 

When module making all PM levels count for caster lvl class get uber, so hard to balance. It not matter what school, still uber.  Most OC creature have no SR or low SR so should be easy.  PM not an OC class so plague campaign never rebalance for it... means easy cheat in OC like many PrC.

[MrZork]

I didn't notice this before, but it caught my attention due to AndrueD's reply above.

Two features I believe could be added to the PM without making the class uber.  The first is that the PM automatically learns all necromancer spells up to the level it can cast.  [...]

I just wanted to note that such a feature is actually fairly uber for sorcerers. I certainly have sorcerers who would grab a level of PM to learn potentially 19 new spells!

I agree with the general notion that PM is kind of a weak class when the goal is to make the arcanist a more effective necromancy-specializing spellcaster. Right now, the PM benefits are best for melee toons (and damage shield mages) and mostly weaken the toon as a caster. There are things that would make the class useful for casters. I would start with Shadooow's 71_PALEMASTER_ADDS_CASTER_LEVEL change, which I think is quite useful. Some other minor tweaks could help as well. For example:

• Stone Bones adds an additional +1 natural armor AC bonus per 5 PM levels.
• Undead summons get a +1 per 5 levels ability buff (e.g. +2 CON or DEX at PM 10-14, etc).
• Full PM level addition to primary caster level for SR calculations with necromancy spells.
• Etc.

[Nick The Noodle]

 

I didn't notice this before, but it caught my attention due to AndrueD's reply above.

I just wanted to note that such a feature is actually fairly uber for sorcerers. I certainly have sorcerers who would grab a level of PM to learn potentially 19 new spells!

I agree with the general notion that PM is kind of a weak class when the goal is to make the arcanist a more effective necromancy-specializing spellcaster. Right now, the PM benefits are best for melee toons (and damage shield mages) and mostly weaken the toon as a caster. There are things that would make the class useful for casters. I would start with Shadooow's 71_PALEMASTER_ADDS_CASTER_LEVEL change, which I think is quite useful. Some other minor tweaks could help as well. For example:

• Stone Bones adds an additional +1 natural armor AC bonus per 5 PM levels.
• Undead summons get a +1 per 5 levels ability buff (e.g. +2 CON or DEX at PM 10-14, etc).
• Full PM level addition to primary caster level for SR calculations with necromancy spells.
• Etc.

 

I hear you concerning sorcerers.  Perhaps sorcerers can only learn necromancer spells while rising as a Palemaster?  Doesn't work for Bards though as they don't get enough choice.