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[Jaison1986]

Not likely. If Solas abandoned all his plans, threw himself at my mercy and consented to a trial for the crimes he's committed and planned to commit, I might be willing to let him live to see it. But at the same time I'd also be thinking he's simply too powerful and too dangerous to be trusted. It could just be a ruse to get out from under my watch, it could be genuine but he'll change his mind later. 

 

Anyone with the desire to destroy the world and the power to make it happen is a dangerous person to leave alive. Even if he were made tranquil, that could be reversed.

 

 

Would you say that even if by chance DA4 clearly had a better ending to it if Solas lives instead of dying?

[Former_Fiend]

Would you say that even if by chance DA4 clearly had a better ending to it if Solas lives instead of dying?

 

Yes, being that my argument is largely based on being unable to predict the future. 

 

And also my personal opinion that any ending where Solas lives is a worse ending than if he dies.

[Vit246]

Meaning that they think they can change anything they want, the world can be shaped to their liking, think themselves beyond judgment or criticism. Believe they are aways right and everyone around them are not. That's what I meant. I have seen many players show themselves not too different then Solas. They just happen to see things from a different perspective, and if circumstance was against them, they wouldn't be beyond of using similar methods to that of Solas.

 

In fact, Trespasser felt like an eye opening experience to me. It showed how little control I had and how little I actually changed. I fell for the messiah complex myself. Thought I could change the world. Turns out I didn't changed ****.

 

This is called Protagonist-Centered Morality, which I am very concerned about.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I feel like this dialogue was just poorly phrased. It should be more like:

 

Inquisitor: You'd murder countless people?

Solas: How many have you killed to save your own? For your world?

 

The way its currently phrased, its too easy to argue against.

And the Inquisitor has certainly killed many. And lets not get hung over semantics like "murder".

The difference between "murder" and "defense" is hardly semantics. My Inquisitor wouldn't have killed a single red templar, venatori, etc, if they weren't trying to kill her and hers' first. But they were. 

 

Solas is not doing the same thing. We aren't attacking him and his people. I'd help him and his people if he'd let me, on the condition that that help not require the death of me and mine. 

 

As far as we're aware of, the ancient elves that may still be in stasis or something could theoretically live in the current Thedas if awoken. They just wouldn't be immortal or as magically inclined (though all still magical to some extent if the Sentinels are an example to go by.) Solas just doesn't currently consider that a life worth living. He considers those things that are missing to be intrinsic parts of his people that he took away and his guilt and pride won't let him stop at just letting them live, but insists he restore what he took.

 

If there's a way to do this without hurting others, I'd be fine with it. But he needs to either find/be shown that other way, or he needs to learn to accept that **** happens and the world changes and learn that how things were in the past isn't the only measure of how they should be in the future. Learn to adapt, in other words. If he can't do either of those things, if I can't help him do those things, then we're at an impasse and I have to choose btwn him and the innocents I have a responsibility to protect from him. 

 

And I'll have to choose to protect. And I'll be very sad for it, but I won't have a choice. Duty before personal feelings. (So, basically, I'll be in his shoes at that point, from his distorted pov.)

 

I really hope there is a way to redeem and save Solas from himself. And I hope its a coherent one that makes sense with all characterizations involved. In my more pessemistic moments, I worry Weekes has written himself into a corner here. 

[Illyria]

No. 

 

Well... yes.

 

They said in their post that mine was a reply to that the people of modern Thedas meant more than the trapped elves.

 

When? We're told that the Evanuris are trapped within the fade. The elven people, however, were apparently still around on the Thedas side of the Veil. Cut off from the fade they became mortal, they warred on themselves until there were only bones for Tevinter to pick at. 

 

The Sentinels and a few sleeping corpses in Uthenera are all that remains of the ancient elves as far as I can tell. Even Solas states that his plan is only "a chance" for restoration. He's the one gambling with the fate of all the world, the same kind of behavior he condemns the Grey Wardens for.

 

It's in a romance banter between Cole and Solas, after Solas has broken up with Lavellan in Crestwood.

 

(If the Inquisitor romanced Solas)

• Cole: (If the Inquisitor kept the vallaslin) Stop. You are perfect exactly as you are. But then you turned away. Why?

• Solas: I had no choice.
• Cole: She feels her face, marked, marred without malice. She didn't know. She thinks it's why you walked away.

(Or)

• Cole: (If the Inquisitor had the vallaslin removed) Ar lasa mala revas. You are so beautiful. But then you turned away. Why?
• Solas: I had no choice.
• Cole: She is bare-faced, embarrassed, and she doesn't know. She thinks it's because of her.
• Solas: You cannot heal this, Cole. Please, let it go.
• Inquisitor: Perhaps Cole can get a better answer from you than I did.
• Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.
• Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.
• Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (gasps) Where did it go?
• Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal.

 

Not likely. If Solas abandoned all his plans, threw himself at my mercy and consented to a trial for the crimes he's committed and planned to commit, I might be willing to let him live to see it. But at the same time I'd also be thinking he's simply too powerful and too dangerous to be trusted. It could just be a ruse to get out from under my watch, it could be genuine but he'll change his mind later. 

 

Anyone with the desire to destroy the world and the power to make it happen is a dangerous person to leave alive. Even if he were made tranquil, that could be reversed.

 

 

 

Corypheus' plan; breach the veil, enter the fade. Corypheus' goal; become a god, restore Tevinter.

 

Solas' plan: tear down the viel, open the fade. Solas' goal; kill the false gods, restore the ancient elves.

 

Drastically different, these two. 

 

Wow.  That's pretty dystopian.  In your worldstate, I'd root for Solas.

 

He just seems so contradictory which is why I posted the dialogue between him and Cassandra.   Seriously, I should buy WOT 1 and 2 but I can't see myself buying the comics and all the books (I bought Asunder so I could at least get an idea of what was going on in Inquisition).  It's not a criticism in any case, but when I read about Solas killing his friend on here (I don't recall his name but he was involved with Briala?)  I realise how little I know and can only go on what I pick up from the game in front of me.

 

His friend was Felassan, who was a mentor to Briala.  His name means 'slow arrow' so he's the 'slow arrow that breaks in the sad wolf's jaws'.

[almasy87]

EDIT: That goes for my canon Lavellan only.  My Assquisitor Cadash is likely to murderknife at the first oppertunity, and my Adaar and Trevelyan I'm still unsure about.

My Lavellan will definitely not kill him (doh!). My Trevelyan however will try to redeem him since they were friends, but ultimately she will put Thedas and her family/friends life before everything else. So depending on what happens she may have to kill him...

[Former_Fiend]

This is called Protagonist-Centered Morality, which I am very concerned about.

 

By that same token, the only reason we're expected to treat Solas any differently than Corypheus is because he was our companion, potentially our friend or even lover. If he hadn't been any of that - and as others have pointed out, given that his half of any relationship, platonic or otherwise, was based so heavily on deciet, he really wasn't - then the debate about his motives and redemption wouldn't be nearly so heated.

[Illyria]

By that same token, the only reason we're expected to treat Solas any differently than Corypheus is because he was our companion, potentially our friend or even lover. If he hadn't been any of that - and as others have pointed out, given that his half of any relationship, platonic or otherwise, was based so heavily on deciet, he really wasn't - then the debate about his motives and redemption wouldn't be nearly so heated.

 

But the whole point of Solas is to give a truly grey villian.  Without any of the context for Solas' actions and our personal relationship with him he'd just be another generic end of the world villian.

 

That's mostly the reason why Solas fans like to defend him - we don't want him being written off as this one note character.

[Former_Fiend]

 

 

Wow.  That's pretty dystopian.  In your worldstate, I'd root for Solas.

 

You are aware that Conspiracy to Commit is still a crime, right?

[AresKeith]

It's in a romance banter between Cole and Solas, after Solas has broken up with Lavellan in Crestwood.

 

(If the Inquisitor romanced Solas)

• Cole: (If the Inquisitor kept the vallaslin) Stop. You are perfect exactly as you are. But then you turned away. Why?

• Solas: I had no choice.
• Cole: She feels her face, marked, marred without malice. She didn't know. She thinks it's why you walked away.

(Or)

• Cole: (If the Inquisitor had the vallaslin removed) Ar lasa mala revas. You are so beautiful. But then you turned away. Why?
• Solas: I had no choice.
• Cole: She is bare-faced, embarrassed, and she doesn't know. She thinks it's because of her.
• Solas: You cannot heal this, Cole. Please, let it go.
• Inquisitor: Perhaps Cole can get a better answer from you than I did.
• Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.
• Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.
• Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (gasps) Where did it go?
• Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal.

 

That doesn't specifically say it's the ancient elves trapped behind the fade

[Illyria]

You are aware that Conspiracy to Commit is still a crime, right?

 

I don't believe in punishing people for stuff they haven't done.

 

That doesn't specifically say it's the ancient elves trapped behind the fade

 

Who else could it be?

[Former_Fiend]

But the whole point of Solas is to give a truly grey villian.  Without any of the context for Solas' actions and our personal relationship with him he'd just be another generic end of the world villian.

 

That's mostly the reason why Solas fans like to defend him - we don't want him being written off as this one note character.

 

Honestly I'm not unsympathetic. I'm a huge Loghain fan - I've spared him in 90% of my playthroughs, and to this day he remains my single favorite character in Dragon Age. I don't excuse much of what he did - I stand by the retreat at Ostagar being a justified strategic withdraw, but aside from that, he's done some heinous ****. But I defend him as being a complex, multi-note character against many who try to condemn him as nothing but a traitor.

 

But with Solas, I remain unconvinced. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't believe in punishing people for stuff they haven't done.

So if the authorities stopped a terrorist cell before they launched an attack, the terrorists should just go free since they haven't attacked yet?

[Abyss108]

That doesn't specifically say it's the ancient elves trapped behind the fade

 

It's heavily implied, since Solas wants to save them, and he certainly doesn't want to save the Evanuris.

[AresKeith]

Who else could it be?

 

The evanuris

 

Spirits of his fallen people, which makes more sense because they warred on each other after losing there "immortality" when the veil was created 

[Illyria]

So if the authorities stopped a terrorist cell before they launched an attack, the terrorists should just go free since they haven't attacked yet?

 

That is completely different.
 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

The evanuris

 

Spirits of his fallen people, which makes more sense because they warred on each other after losing there "immortality" when the veil was created 

But Solas hates the Evanuris and doesn't want them freed. He calls the punishment of being trapped where he's trapped them deserving. That plus some locational banter from Cole in Trespasser that implies there are a bunch of elven asleep that can't wake, and I think Illyra's right.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't believe in punishing people for stuff they haven't done.

 

 

I believe that plotting and attempting to murder 90% of the population is something you don't wait for someone to succeed to do before you punish them for it, and I believe that you don't let someone who plotted and attempted to do that off scott free just because they failed.

[The Baconer]

Well... yes.

 

They said in their post that mine was a reply to that the people of modern Thedas meant more than the trapped elves.

 

Or that their trapped status does not justify the mass-death event required to release them, as unfortunate as that may be. It is not equivalent with his logic. Of course, that they are trapped at all, and that freeing them requires killing millions of others is entirely Solas' fault. 

[Illyria]

The evanuris

 

Spirits of his fallen people, which makes more sense because they warred on each other after losing there "immortality" when the veil was created 

 

Why would he want to save the evanuris?

[Aren]

 

 

 

Corypheus' plan; breach the veil, enter the fade. Corypheus' goal; become a god, restore Tevinter.

 

Solas' plan: tear down the viel, open the fade. Solas' goal; kill the false gods, restore the ancient elves.

 

Drastically different, these two. 

They were different goals,Corypheus wanted to enter that city not to breach the fade with the Orb.

The magister do not need to destroy the veil to enter the black city.

[Korva]

Irrespective of how anyone else feels about Solas being a friend, Solas believes it of himself.

 

That is completely irrelevant to me. No matter what he and the writers seem to think, he does not get to unilaterally define the nature and conditions of his relationship with other people, especially when he lies to, uses, betrays and plans to annihilate said people. Hell, Solas himself has no problems voicing his disgust for those he does not like (i.e. pretty much everyone) or others' attempts to define him.

 

We don't offer redemption because people deserve it. Partially because so many people put such a high bar on what 'deserve' means. We offer redemption and forgiveness, we show compassion be cause *we* need to. Because the day we can't offer those things is the day we admit we've severed ties with our humanity.

 

I strongly disagree. Yes, letting go of negative emotion can be a crucial tool of self-healing. But there's a huge risk for victim-blaming and -shaming if one is told one "needs" to forgive no matter what the people who committed all sorts of atrocities continue to say and do -- especially with the threat of "or you're less than human" hanging over one's head. Forgiveness is a gift, and gifts can't be forced or they're in fact theft, bullying or other perversions of the concept -- just like Solas' actions are a perversion of friendship and respect.

 

People absolutely do need to "deserve" it, and setting the bar where Cole does i.e. some variation of "try to fix it and don't do it again" is really not all that high. Actually, even the first part isn't a firm requirement from him. But without the latter, forgiveness and compassion just turn into enabling those who hurt others.

 

Offtopic, but I would love if there were nonlethal ways to deal with enemies like you can in some franchises, like Deus Ex. 

 

Yes, same here. More alternatives to the constant combat, more non-lethal, less of the automatic assumption that combat equals gameplay and content (when in fact it's often just padding).

 

No. 

 

Seriously. The amount of "YOU are the evil ones, YOU are hypocrites who have no right to judge Solas!" in this thread is just WTF. Personal attacks based and false equivalences are not arguments.

[Commander of the Grey]

I think it would be interesting if it came down to finding out that he does indeed have an untold number of ancient elves hiding behind mirrors somewhere waiting to be freed.

If we stop him, we doom them all to die.
Or he succeeds and dooms our people to die. A lot of people would then be standing in his shoes, dooming those we don't see as ours to save our own. Of course I hope it's more complex than that.

I have a feeling these arguments would then become about numbers. The needs of the many type of thing. People always find a way to justify their choices.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That is completely different.
 

No, it's not. Solas is already setting his plan in motion, just like the terrorist cell in my example. They are in the same position. The only difference is scale since Solas plans to attack the entire world with his plan. 

[AresKeith]

But Solas hates the Evanuris and doesn't want them freed. He calls the punishment of being trapped where he's trapped them deserving. That plus some locational banter from Cole in Trespasser that implies there are a bunch of elven asleep that can't wake, and I think Illyra's right.

 

That's why I also mentioned the spirits of his fallen people after the Evanuris, and we already knew there was elves sleeping but nothing still implies that they are trapped in the fade along with the Evanuris