382 réponses à ce sujet

[Eivuwan]

I am going to ignore the bad wolf good wolf debate for a minute and focus on some practical issues.

 

1) The veil is an artificial construct. Even though this is a magical world, it's hard to imagine something that twisted the nature of the world with such magnitude can last forever without something maintaining it. Given that Solas is the only one around who seems to really understand the veil, I doubt it could last for much longer than it already has. Maybe it could last for another 100 years or maybe it could last only for a few years. We don't know. Perhaps Solas wants to take action now and control the process before he loses this opportunity.

 

2) People here are assuming we can kill Solas. Yes, we can probably kill him in the same way that the Evanuris killed Mythal, but as we all see, she's not permanently dead. For all we know, killing him would only make him more determined for a second attempt later on. At least right now, he is somewhat ambivalent about what he is planning to do. The redeem option might actually be a more permanent solution for Solas' plans.

[Eivuwan]

But Solas hates the Evanuris and doesn't want them freed. He calls the punishment of being trapped where he's trapped them deserving. That plus some locational banter from Cole in Trespasser that implies there are a bunch of elven asleep that can't wake, and I think Illyra's right.

 

Solas also told Abelas that there are places where the Elvhen still lives.

[Ariella]

So if the authorities stopped a terrorist cell before they launched an attack, the terrorists should just go free since they haven't attacked yet?

 

Recently a Minnesota teen who was caught before he could commit a mass murder at his school had the charge of attempted murder thrown out since he'd only prepared for the massacre not carried it out.

 

John David LaDue is the name.

[Illyria]

That is completely irrelevant to me. No matter what he and the writers seem to think, he does not get to unilaterally define the nature and conditions of his relationship with other people, especially when he lies to, uses, betrays and plans to annihilate said people. Hell, Solas himself has no problems voicing his disgust for those he does not like (i.e. pretty much everyone) or others' attempts to define him.

 

 

 

 

I strongly disagree. Yes, letting go of negative emotion can be a crucial tool of self-healing. But there's a huge risk for victim-blaming and -shaming if one is told one "needs" to forgive no matter what the people who committed all sorts of atrocities continue to say and do -- especially with the threat of "or you're less than human" hanging over one's head. Forgiveness is a gift, and gifts can't be forced or they're in fact theft, bullying or other perversions of the concept -- just like Solas' actions are a perversion of friendship and respect.

 

People absolutely do need to "deserve" it, and setting the bar where Cole does i.e. some variation of "try to fix it and don't do it again" is really not all that high. Actually, even the first part isn't a firm requirement from him. But without the latter, forgiveness and compassion just turn into enabling those who hurt others.

 

 

Yes, same here. More alternatives to the constant combat, more non-lethal, less of the automatic assumption that combat equals gameplay and content (when in fact it's often just padding).

 

 

Seriously. The amount of "YOU are the evil ones, YOU are hypocrites who have no right to judge Solas!" in this thread is just WTF. Personal attacks based and false equivalences are not arguments.

 

All I'm (and other Solas fans) are trying to do is get people to look at things from a different angle.  I've never said that his plan is a good thing, and I find it to be terrible.  But I wont dismiss him as 'just' a villain when there is so much more to his character than that.
 

[Wulfram]

An alternative to Solas wanting to save the Ancient Elves is perhaps that he wants to save the "Demons", who are essentially twisted by the veil. Look at one of his first conversations with the Inquisitor, it seems like its all about how bringing down the veil would fix the demons.

And given the various hints that Solas is a Pride Demon, they could count as his people. Of course I could be making a false distinction here - the ancient elves may in fact have been spirits who took mortal form, who with the veil existing would now class as Demons.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Recently a Minnesota teen who was caught before he could commit a mass murder at his school had the charge of attempted murder thrown out since he'd only prepared for the massacre not carried it out.

 

John David LaDue is the name.

Well that's just ridiculous. 

[Former_Fiend]

 

They were different goals,Corypheus wanted to enter that city not to breach the fade with the Orb.

The magister do not need to destroy the veil to enter the black city.

 

 

You realize that entering the city involves breaching the fade, right? He can't do the former without doing the latter. 

 

And it might be that he didn't need to destroy the veil to get there, but that was what was going to happen. We know this as a matter of fact because we see it in In Hushed Whispers - Corypheus attempts to enter the city without the Anchor destroy the veil and merge the Fade and the material world in a horrific manner. 

 

Besides that, entering the City wasn't the goal in and of itself, it was a means to the end, which was become a god and use his powers to restore Tevinter - Tevinter that had been in a state of decline for over a thousand years as a direct result of Corypheus' actions in causing the first Blight, just like how Solas seeks to restore a civilization that fell into decline and ultimate ruin as a direct result of his own actions.

 

As it stands I'm not convinced that Solas' post-veil world is going to look any better than Corypheus', so until I have reason to believe otherwise I'm going to assume that In Hushed Whispers' future is pretty much what'll happen if Solas wins, just with more elves.

[Eivuwan]

An alternative to Solas wanting to save the Ancient Elves is perhaps that he wants to save the "Demons", who are essentially twisted by the veil. Look at one of his first conversations with the Inquisitor, it seems like its all about how bringing down the veil would fix the demons.

And given the various hints that Solas is a Pride Demon, they could count as his people. Of course I could be making a false distinction here - the ancient elves may in fact have been spirits who took mortal form, who with the veil existing would now class as Demons.

 

Yeah, that's a possibility too. I think it's likely that the reason why ancient elves are so good with magic and are immortal is because they were originally spirits.

 

Edit: Also the spirit guardians in Trespasser have the shape of ancient elves.

[Aren]

 

 

 

 

 

People absolutely do need to "deserve" it, and setting the bar where Cole does i.e. some variation of "try to fix it and don't do it again" is really not all that high. Actually, even the first part isn't a firm requirement from him. But without the latter, forgiveness and compassion just turn into enabling those who hurt others.

 

 

 

A tiger doesn't change its stripes, nor a leopard its spots,not a wolf his  fur...

[CardButton]

I think it would be interesting if it came down to finding out that he does indeed have an untold number of ancient elves hiding behind mirrors somewhere waiting to be freed.

If we stop him, we doom them all to die.
Or he succeeds and dooms our people to die. A lot of people would then be standing in his shoes, dooming those we don't see as ours to save our own. Of course I hope it's more complex than that.

I have a feeling these arguments would then become about numbers. The needs of the many type of thing. People always find a way to justify their choices.

I'm hoping there is an option to convince Solas to simply increase the rate of the of the Veil's decay (perhaps more evenly across Thedas as well) and then have Solas return to back into hibernation until just before it's natural collapse (I see the Veil coming down eventually anyway so this won't change much).  That way he's not slamming the Fade down upon an unsuspecting populous destroying the world, but he'll also be re-creating a world where the Ancient Elvhen can exist without problems.  

 

In essence, it allows for the current Thedas to slowly ease its way into a world where the Fade is once again a part of the physical world (it will also perhaps ease spirits back into the physical world being part of the Fade again) and it allows for Solas (upon his next awakening) to be in a position to save the remainder of his People without having to sacrifice the population of the rest of the world to do it.  In a weird way the "Thedas" we know will eventually be destroyed by this choice, but the people wont ... the world will just change. It will allow for Bioware time to finish up any outlying stories in current Thedas while setting up the next "Age" of the franchise.

 

LI Lavellan Inquisitor's can choose to hibernate with him as a special option (or something) since I see the end of Solas' story being the end of the Inquisitor's part in Thedas regardless. If they survive, all Inquisitor's will be heading home to their LI or to the Inquisition itself. 

[Former_Fiend]

I am going to ignore the bad wolf good wolf debate for a minute and focus on some practical issues.

 

1) The veil is an artificial construct. Even though this is a magical world, it's hard to imagine something that twisted the nature of the world with such magnitude can last forever without something maintaining it. Given that Solas is the only one around who seems to really understand the veil, I doubt it could last for much longer than it already has. Maybe it could last for another 100 years or maybe it could last only for a few years. We don't know. Perhaps Solas wants to take action now and control the process before he loses this opportunity.

 

2) People here are assuming we can kill Solas. Yes, we can probably kill him in the same way that the Evanuris killed Mythal, but as we all see, she's not permanently dead. For all we know, killing him would only make him more determined for a second attempt later on. At least right now, he is somewhat ambivalent about what he is planning to do. The redeem option might actually be a more permanent solution for Solas' plans.

 

Point one is pure speculation on your part with nothing to back it up.

 

Point two; well first off we have no real reason to suspect Solas is as hard to kill as Mythal was. For starters, he isn't a fragment like she is/was - we really have no reason to believe he's actually immortal and that he didn't jsut uses Uthernera. The way he refers to Mythal and the rest of the Evanuris - "The first of my people do not die so easily" - makes me feel like there's a clear separation between himself and them and it's more than ideological. He isn't one of them.

 

Besides which, yes, killing him might just strengthen his resolve, but "redeeming" him might just end with him changing his mind ten  years or ten weeks down the line. If there is no way to know, I'm going with the safer route.

[Eivuwan]

I'm hoping there is an option to convince Solas to simply increase the rate of the of the Veil's decay (perhaps more evenly across Thedas as well) and then have Solas return to back into hibernation until just before it's natural collapse (I see the Veil coming down eventually anyway so this won't change much).  That way he's not slamming the Fade down upon an unsuspecting populous destroying the world, but he'll also be re-creating a world where the Ancient Elvhen can exist without problems.  

 

In essence, it allows for the current Thedas to slowly ease its way into a world where the Fade is once again a part of the physical world (it will also perhaps ease spirits back into the physical world being part of the Fade again) and it allows for Solas (upon his next awakening) to be in a position to save the remainder of his People without having to sacrifice the population of the rest of the world to do it.  In a weird way the "Thedas" we know will eventually be destroyed by this choice, but the people wont ... the world will just change. It will allow for Bioware time to finish up any outlying stories in current Thedas while setting up the next "Age" of the franchise.

 

LI Lavellan Inquisitor's can choose to hibernate with him as a special option (or something) since I see the end of Solas' story being the end of the Inquisitor's part in Thedas regardless. If they survive, they will be heading home to their LI or to the Inquisition itself. 

 

I like everything except I don't see why he has to hibernate afterwards lol. I prefer an ending in which Solas brings down the veil in a peaceful way with Lavellan by his side, helping him with this process.

[AresKeith]

I like everything except I don't see why he has to hibernate afterwards lol. I prefer an ending in which Solas brings down the veil in a peaceful way with Lavellan by his side, helping him with this process.

 

What if there isn't a peaceful way though?

[Ardent Blossom]

 

Corypheus' plan; breach the veil, enter the fade. Corypheus' goal; become a god, restore Tevinter.

 

Solas' plan: tear down the viel, open the fade. Solas' goal; kill the false gods, restore the ancient elves.

 

Drastically different, these two. 

At the risk of sounding like a bit too much of a free-loving hippy, here's my crazy take.

 

Yes, Corypheus and Solas are two sides of the same coin. Most folks either see Cory as a soulless monster and see Solas as a reluctant, redeemable monster or see them both as soulless monsters that they want to murderknife. After Trespasser I'm in neither of these camps. All those parallels we can draw between Solas and Corypheus actually make me feel some sympathy for Corypheus rather than hatred for Solas. He, like Solas, is a Rip Van Winkle who rose from a long nap into an alien world--a world he intended to fix. Perhaps if Cory had had someone to slap him in the face or to shake him by his nasty darkspawn shoulders he could have been redeemed. He could have chosen a different path. Perhaps he could have been more like the Architect. Monsters are not born in a vacuum, and every soul is worthy of redemption.

 

Redemption is a recurring theme in Inquisition. What did all you Solas knifermurderers make of Blackwall? Did you leave him to hang? Send him to the Wardens? My Inquisitor allowed him the opportunity to atone for his crimes. She also showed mercy to Alexius and Florianne, allowing them to seek redemption in the service of the Inquisition. 

 

Seeing the people of modern Thedas as somehow superior or more deserving of protection than the ancient elves is ethnocentric. Both groups have the right to live. One who is violently angry at Solas for plotting to potentially destroy the world should be just as angry at him for destroying his own world in the distant past (and subsequently becoming the unknowing creator of modern Thedas). I don't hear any of you complaining about that. Solas has killed more people (generations of elves who died through their own mortality) as a result of creating the veil than he is likely to kill by sundering the veil. Kill a bunch of people all at once to prevent perpetual death in the future. Every time an elf dies of old age it is Solas' fault--collateral damage from his Big Magic 1.0© plan.

 

Again, this is just my crazy hippy opinion.

[Eivuwan]

Point one is pure speculation on your part with nothing to back it up.

 

Point two; well first off we have no real reason to suspect Solas is as hard to kill as Mythal was. For starters, he isn't a fragment like she is/was - we really have no reason to believe he's actually immortal and that he didn't jsut uses Uthernera. The way he refers to Mythal and the rest of the Evanuris - "The first of my people do not die so easily" - makes me feel like there's a clear separation between himself and them and it's more than ideological. He isn't one of them.

 

Besides which, yes, killing him might just strengthen his resolve, but "redeeming" him might just end with him changing his mind ten  years or ten weeks down the line. If there is no way to know, I'm going with the safer route.

 

Considering how little we actually know, many things are a speculation at this point including what you just said about how he is different from the Evanuris. I am just bringing these points up because I think they are important things to consider. The veil not being able to last because it's an artificial construct is a pretty natural assumption/educated guess. That's all I am going to say in the matter because I find debating with you to be pointless.

[Eivuwan]

What if there isn't a peaceful way though?

 

I hope it's not going to come to a my people vs your people thing, but if that's the case, then I will have to try to stop Solas. However, I won't take drastic action without having more information regarding his plans, the nature of the veil, etc.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

2) People here are assuming we can kill Solas. Yes, we can probably kill him in the same way that the Evanuris killed Mythal, but as we all see, she's not permanently dead. For all we know, killing him would only make him more determined for a second attempt later on. At least right now, he is somewhat ambivalent about what he is planning to do. The redeem option might actually be a more permanent solution for Solas' plans.

If so, I hope we can seal him with the Evanuris for all eternity. That is permanent solution full of poetic justice right there. 

[Eivuwan]

At the risk of sounding like a bit too much of a free-loving hippy, here's my crazy take.

 

Yes, Corypheus and Solas are two sides of the same coin. Most folks either see Cory as a soulless monster and see Solas as a reluctant, redeemable monster or see them both as soulless monsters that they want to murderknife. After Trespasser I'm in neither of these camps. All those parallels we can draw between Solas and Corypheus actually make me feel some sympathy for Corypheus rather than hatred for Solas. He, like Solas, is a Rip Van Winkle who rose from a long nap into an alien world--a world he intended to fix. Perhaps if Cory had had someone to slap him in the face or to shake him by his nasty darkspawn shoulders he could have been redeemed. He could have chosen a different path. Perhaps he could have been more like the Architect. Monsters are not born in a vacuum, and every soul is worthy of redemption.

 

Redemption is a recurring theme in Inquisition. What did all you Solas knifermurderers make of Blackwall? Did you leave him to hang? Send him to the Wardens? My Inquisitor allowed him the opportunity to atone for his crimes. She also showed mercy to Alexius and Florianne, allowing them to seek redemption in the service of the Inquisition. 

 

Seeing the people of modern Thedas as somehow superior or more deserving of protection than the ancient elves is ethnocentric. Both groups have the right to live. One who is violently angry at Solas for plotting to potentially destroy the world should be just as angry at him for destroying his own world in the distant past (and subsequently becoming the unknowing creator of modern Thedas). I don't hear any of you complaining about that. Solas has killed more people (generations of elves who died through their own mortality) as a result of creating the veil than he is likely to kill by sundering the veil. Kill a bunch of people all at once to prevent perpetual death in the future. Every time an elf dies of old age it is Solas' fault.

 

Again, this is just my crazy hippy opinion.

 

Your opinion isn't crazy.

[Eivuwan]

If so, I hope we can seal him with the Evanuris for all eternity. That is permanent solution full of poetic justice right there. 

 

I am not sure if even that is a permanent solution.

[Jaison1986]

I hope it's not going to come to a my people vs your people thing, but if that's the case, then I will have to try to stop Solas. However, I won't take drastic action without having more information regarding his plans, the nature of the veil, etc.

 

Considering all the prophecies and the like we get, such as Sandal or Flemeth, I have this gut feeling that Solas might indeed succeed in his plan no matter what we do. Of course, the aftermath might depend entirely on us. Maybe we will kill Solas and leave everyone wondering what do to next in this completely changed world, or maybe we can convince him to change his plan and have him help the people of Thedas to assimilate to this new world.

[Former_Fiend]

At the risk of sounding like a bit too much of a free-loving hippy, here's my crazy take.

 

Yes, Corypheus and Solas are two sides of the same coin. Most folks either see Cory as a soulless monster and see Solas as a reluctant, redeemable monster or see them both as soulless monsters that they want to murderknife. After Trespasser I'm in neither of these camps. All those parallels we can draw between Solas and Corypheus actually make me feel some sympathy for Corypheus rather than hatred for Solas. He, like Solas, is a Rip Van Winkle who rose from a long nap into an alien world--a world he intended to fix. Perhaps if Cory had had someone to slap him in the face or to shake him by his nasty darkspawn shoulders he could have been redeemed. He could have chosen a different path. Perhaps he could have been more like the Architect. Monsters are not born in a vacuum, and every soul is worthy of redemption.

 

Redemption is a recurring theme in Inquisition. What did all you Solas knifermurderers make of Blackwall? Did you leave him to hang? Send him to the Wardens? My Inquisitor allowed him the opportunity to atone for his crimes. She also showed mercy to Alexius and Florianne, allowing them to seek redemption in the service of the Inquisition. 

 

Seeing the people of modern Thedas as somehow superior or more deserving of protection than the ancient elves is ethnocentric. Both groups have the right to live. One who is violently angry at Solas for plotting to potentially destroy the world should be just as angry at him for destroying his own world in the distant past (and subsequently becoming the unknowing creator of modern Thedas). I don't hear any of you complaining about that. Solas has killed more people (generations of elves who died through their own mortality) as a result of creating the veil than he is likely to kill by sundering the veil. Kill a bunch of people all at once to prevent perpetual death in the future. Every time an elf dies of old age it is Solas' fault.

 

Again, this is just my crazy hippy opinion.

 

I sent Blackwall to the Wardens to give him a chance to atone. I recruited Sten, knowing he had murdered a family. I recruited Zevran, knowing he was a professional assassin. I gave Isabela another chance even though she betrayed me and indirectly caused the Qunari attack on Kirkwall.  I recruited Loghain into the Wardens despite everything he had done - the treason, the attempt to seize power, the selling of elves into slavery, the poisoning of Eamon.

 

So when I condemn someone, it isn't something I do lightly. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Seeing the people of modern Thedas as somehow superior or more deserving of protection than the ancient elves is ethnocentric. Both groups have the right to live. One who is violently angry at Solas for plotting to potentially destroy the world should be just as angry at him for destroying his own world in the distant past (and subsequently becoming the unknowing creator of modern Thedas). I don't hear any of you complaining about that. Solas has killed more people (generations of elves who died through their own mortality) as a result of creating the veil than he is likely to kill by sundering the veil. Kill a bunch of people all at once to prevent perpetual death in the future. Every time an elf dies of old age it is Solas' fault--collateral damage from his Big Magic 1.0© plan.

People probably aren't as angry at that time since at least the consequences then were accidental. He didn't realize what would happen until it happened. This time though, he knows exactly what is going to happen but is going to do it anyway. 

 

I am not sure if even that is a permanent solution.

Considering several beings as powerful as Solas haven't been able to escape for millennia, it seems like a permanent thing. 

[CardButton]

I like everything except I don't see why he has to hibernate afterwards lol. I prefer an ending in which Solas brings down the veil in a peaceful way with Lavellan by his side, helping him with this process.

I think the destruction caused by the Veils collapse isn't literally from it's collapse, but rather the byproduct of it's removal.  I'm pretty sure the wide spread destruction would primarily be caused by the MASSIVE rise in Magical energy, combined with the sudden forced placement of every spirit of the Fade into Physical Existence.  Imagine how many of those spirits (influenced by the thoughts of the people around them) would become demons and go berserk across the entire world.  For the above plan to work the decay of the Veil would need to be noticeable, but not too abrupt to give time for the Denizens of Current Thedas to adapt (A couple hundred years at minimum IMO).

 

My interpretations about why the Veil needs to come down to save the Ancient Elvhen comes from this idea that Current Thedas is considered an inhospitable environment for their long term survival (by Solas).  If they were simply removed from their entrapment (or hibernation) they would be exposed to the Quickening (which I'm sure is currently affecting Solas and Abelas while their awake) forcing them to age ... along with being forcibly removed from the presence of the Fade itself (both of which are factors in Ancient Elvhen's destruction to begin with).  Solas want's to not literally create the world of the Ancient Elvhen, but merely wants to re-create a world in which they can survive with their eternal life intact. 

 

While personally I would love for my Lavellan to figure out a way to get her Eternal life back, the only way I can think of for her to live long enough to help Solas save the Elvhen is well ... is for both of them to be removed from the world equation until the Veil is ready to disperse (AKA Deep Elvhen Sleep).  Solas LI Quizzies will have one big choice in the end.  Do they sacrifice everything they know to stay by Solas' side (bringing down the last bit of the Veil when they both awaken) or do they (like other positive SAVE Solas relationship Quizzies) simply convince Solas to do it alone and stay in the world that they helped to build?

[Eivuwan]

People probably aren't as angry at that time since at least the consequences then were accidental. He didn't realize what would happen until it happened. This time though, he knows exactly what is going to happen but is going to do it anyway. 

 

Considering several beings as powerful as Solas haven't been able to escape for millennia, it seems like a permanent thing. 

 

Yes seems like. Trapping, killing, redeeming all may or may not be permanent solutions. As for the trapping one, there is the issue of Solas being the one who did that in the first place and thus may understand better how to get out of the trap. He is the Dread Wolf after all and seems to be good at getting himself out of tricky situations.

[Commander of the Grey]

I'm hoping there is an option to convince Solas to simply increase the rate of the of the Veil's decay (perhaps more evenly across Thedas as well) and then have Solas return to back into hibernation until just before it's natural collapse (I see the Veil coming down eventually anyway so this won't change much). That way he's not slamming the Fade down upon an unsuspecting populous destroying the world, but he'll also be re-creating a world where the Ancient Elvhen can exist without problems.

In essence, it allows for the current Thedas to slowly ease its way into a world where the Fade is once again a part of the physical world (it will also perhaps ease spirits back into the physical world being part of the Fade again) and it allows for Solas (upon his next awakening) to be in a position to save the remainder of his People without having to sacrifice the population of the rest of the world to do it. In a weird way the "Thedas" we know will eventually be destroyed by this choice, but the people wont ... the world will just change. It will allow for Bioware time to finish up any outlying stories in current Thedas while setting up the next "Age" of the franchise.

LI Lavellan Inquisitor's can choose to hibernate with him as a special option (or something) since I see the end of Solas' story being the end of the Inquisitor's part in Thedas regardless. If they survive, all Inquisitor's will be heading home to their LI or to the Inquisition itself.

My worry is that he either used his orb or Skyhold to do it the first time. His orb is gone now, and Skyhold is no longer suited for that purpose (if it ever was since that's still not entirely clear). If even using his orb made him sleep for millennia, what will it do to him if he no longer has it? Then there are the elven memories from those who lived who vow to kill him if they ever get free. If he does survive somehow, I don't see him being able to remain out of hiding and I'm not sure he'd care to. He is a hermit after all.

I'm not really for unathenra or the like just because I'd rather he show the elves their history and grow to love them as he does his own. Which wouldn't take much, I'll bet, if they'll stop being as stubborn as him. xD

But I do agree that the veil likely won't last much longer anyway. It's already weakened and thin in a lot of places and it coming down on its own would not be good either.

If that's how the world was then I think it needs to return to that. It's only the fallout that bothers me. With you on finding mutual ground that causes less chaos and possible death.