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[Hanako Ikezawa]

Because it's not true, at least not always 

When one of those not always times occur for me, I'll alter my viewpoint accordingly. 

 

Stupid or not, does it make it any less. Was Shepard less of a friend because she did her duty as an officer?

 

Gandalf knew it was going to come to that. There wasn't any other way, though he wanted there to be. Who else could bear the Ring?

 

And AresKeith is right. The world is rarely black and white, us and them. Seeing it that way can be VERY dangerous indeed.

In that case, yes. Due to Shepard being an incompetent commander in that scenario, they were less of a friend. Though you're operating on the basis that Shepard is friends with both Ash and Kaidan, which isn't always the case.

 

Gollum can. He had for centuries after all before Bilbo stole it, and never had a desire to return it to Sauron. 

 

You see it as dangerous, I see it as safe.

 

What's the problem with the Virmire choice?

The fact that you can easily have saved both, but you have to choose one "because drama". 

[myahele]

It depends on what they do with the new protagonist of DA4 and if they give us that choice.

 

If Mythal is an indicator, the best course of action is to just seal him up either cut his body into pieces and seal each individual piece since that seems to be what elves like to do if they wanted to seal powerful demons/spirits

[Almostfaceman]

There are some here who have a serious case of the armchair quarterback syndrome. It's really easy with 20/20 hindsight to judge someone else's mistakes.

 

I don't want Solas to devastate Thedas, but I can sympathize with his predicament. 

 

First, his own people put themselves in a shitty situation, at the hands of power-mad "gods" and their whims. Oceans of blood flow. Thousands, maybe millions, are in servitude. The only "god" with any sense is murdered by the other "gods". All this combined with an immortal race spells eons of suffering and bloodshed. 

 

I can easily see a game where we're dropped in as the "hero" to get ourselves out of a situation like that. 

 

Or do you just set aside, knowing  you have the power to *try* and change things, but you don't because you might fail? Or things may not turn out okay? That seems like the spot Solas was in before he put up the Veil. He was a powerful mage, yes. But he was up against a group of powerful mages. He could free slaves, but this powerful group of mages could use their propaganda as "gods" to scare slaves back into servitude. 

 

Solas undoubtedly found himself in a desperate situation. He wanted, he needed, to break the bonds of servitude and free his people. He knew he didn't have all the answers. He knew he was taking a chance. He knew he was going to be weakened when he put up the Veil. But he wanted to have faith in his people, that they may use their freedom wisely and work things out. 

 

We don't know everything that was happening then, but knowing what we know right now, I'd probably do the same thing Solas did. I would do just about whatever it took to free the elves from the influence of the Evanuris. 

 

Then he wakes up thousands of years later and finds out that not only have his people been adversely affected, but other races have taken advantage of the situation and subjugated his people. 

 

Once again he finds himself the only one with the power and know-how to help his people. Plus, he now owns responsibility for elven mortality and the strange effects the Veil has with the real world and the Fade. 

 

So, he's not going to have a lot of sympathy for the people who have treated his people like poop. It's just not going to happen. Plus, all of his people are only a fragment of what they used to be. Their "natural state" has been tweaked so badly they no longer even know who they are or were. 

 

So no, I buy no arguments that Solas is insane, or a megalomaniac or a psychopath. 

 

In a perfect world, he'd have more empathy for all living things. But he's been hardened by war and other crappy situations. 

 

That's why the role of the Inquisitor becomes vital in relation to Solas. It re-awakens some empathy in him.

 

It will be nice if we get the chance to find some kind of compromise and work with Solas. The Veil is an artificial construct. It's going down, one way or another. It's causing problems between spirits and the living. And the Evanuris... they need to pay for murdering Mythal and for the suffering they inflicted on the elves.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Then he wakes up thousands of years later and finds out that not only have his people been adversely affected, but other races have taken advantage of the situation and subjugated his people. 

 

Once again he finds himself the only one with the power and know-how to help his people. Plus, he now owns responsibility for elven mortality and the strange effects the Veil has with the real world and the Fade. 

 

So, he's not going to have a lot of sympathy for the people who have treated his people like poop. It's just not going to happen. Plus, all of his people are only a fragment of what they used to be. Their "natural state" has been tweaked so badly they no longer even know who they are or were. 

 

So no, I buy no arguments that Solas is insane, or a megalomaniac or a psychopath. 

Except he isn't doing this for the modern Elves. He doesn't see them as his people, or even as people at all. He has said this more than once. 

[Former_Fiend]

True, how do you fight, or kill, someone who can turn you to stone instantly?

 

Same way you fight and kill any other mage who knows the petrification spell.

 

With a sword and a lot of nerve.

[In Exile]

There are some here who have a serious case of the armchair quarterback syndrome. It's really easy with 20/20 hindsight to judge someone else's mistakes.

 

I don't want Solas to devastate Thedas, but I can sympathize with his predicament. 

 

First, his own people put themselves in a shitty situation, at the hands of power-mad "gods" and their whims. Oceans of blood flow. Thousands, maybe millions, are in servitude. The only "god" with any sense is murdered by the other "gods". All this combined with an immortal race spells eons of suffering and bloodshed. 

 

I can easily see a game where we're dropped in as the "hero" to get ourselves out of a situation like that. 

 

Or do you just set aside, knowing  you have the power to *try* and change things, but you don't because you might fail? Or things may not turn out okay? That seems like the spot Solas was in before he put up the Veil. He was a powerful mage, yes. But he was up against a group of powerful mages. He could free slaves, but this powerful group of mages could use their propaganda as "gods" to scare slaves back into servitude. 

 

Solas undoubtedly found himself in a desperate situation. He wanted, he needed, to break the bonds of servitude and free his people. He knew he didn't have all the answers. He knew he was taking a chance. He knew he was going to be weakened when he put up the Veil. But he wanted to have faith in his people, that they may use their freedom wisely and work things out. 

 

We don't know everything that was happening then, but knowing what we know right now, I'd probably do the same thing Solas did. I would do just about whatever it took to free the elves from the influence of the Evanuris. 

 

Then he wakes up thousands of years later and finds out that not only have his people been adversely affected, but other races have taken advantage of the situation and subjugated his people. 

 

Once again he finds himself the only one with the power and know-how to help his people. Plus, he now owns responsibility for elven mortality and the strange effects the Veil has with the real world and the Fade. 

 

So, he's not going to have a lot of sympathy for the people who have treated his people like poop. It's just not going to happen. Plus, all of his people are only a fragment of what they used to be. Their "natural state" has been tweaked so badly they no longer even know who they are or were. 

 

So no, I buy no arguments that Solas is insane, or a megalomaniac or a psychopath. 

 

In a perfect world, he'd have more empathy for all living things. But he's been hardened by war and other crappy situations. 

 

That's why the role of the Inquisitor becomes vital in relation to Solas. It re-awakens some empathy in him.

 

It will be nice if we get the chance to find some kind of compromise and work with Solas. The Veil is an artificial construct. It's going down, one way or another. It's causing problems between spirits and the living. And the Evanuris... they need to pay for murdering Mythal and for the suffering they inflicted on the elves.  

 

People aren't focusing enough on the incredible guilt that drives Solas. He thinks he committed genocide. He's doing it as much to absolve himself of that burden as he is anything else. Beyond that, he's not trying to save a people so much as he is trying to restore something he stole away. I think a lot of people misread when Solas refers to everyone as a tranquil. That's just him describing the magnitude of his sin. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

People aren't focusing enough on the incredible guilt that drives Solas. He thinks he committed genocide. He's doing it as much to absolve himself of that burden as he is anything else. Beyond that, he's not trying to save a people so much as he is trying to restore something he stole away. I think a lot of people misread when Solas refers to everyone as a tranquil. That's just him describing the magnitude of his sin. 

So he wants to actually commit genocide to absolve himself and stop himself of thinking he committed an earlier genocide? 

[In Exile]

So he wants to actually commit genocide to absolve himself and stop himself of thinking he committed an earlier genocide? 

 

It's not entirely clear it'll be the same kind of genocide, which is to say that it's not entirely clear (to his mind) that he'll be eradicating something in the same way he did before. He might be killing a lot of people, but he's not going to be fundamentally warping what makes them "people" in the same way. This is what Cole's talk in the romance alludes to (the "if she's real..." line). 

 

I use "In Hushed Whispers" as the analogy, here. When we fix the bad future, we don't see it as genocide. Solas sees what he's doing the same way. 

[Former_Fiend]

I just spent one game trying to stop an ancient, powerful mage who awakened after centuries of sleep to find that their actions involving the fade lead to the destruction of the society they held dear, and who resolved to restore that society even at the cost of destroying just about all of the current world.

 

I'm not inclined to find Solas more sympathetic than Corypheus just because Solas' resolve in his actions is weaker and he's tormented by guilt and self pity. If anything I'm more inclined to respect Corypheus over Solas because at least Corypheus doesn't make any apologies for what he's determined to do.

 

I don't wish there was an option to not kill Corypheus, so I won't be passing on an option to kill Solas.

[Almostfaceman]

Except he isn't doing this for the modern Elves. He doesn't see them as his people, or even as people at all. He has said this more than once. 

 

All that means is the current state of the Veil is keeping the "modern" elves from "being all they can be". He tells an elven Inquisitor he's gone to the Dalish and tried to tell them the truth or "share knowledge" and many of them didn't want to hear him. He talked with Sera about how she still has a unique connection to the Fade, and the game itself illustrates this by letting an elven Inquisitor see the Fade or Crossroads differently than other race Inquisitors. So you're reading wwaaayyy too much into that. The game makes this point for a reason - to illustrate the elves can be restored.

 

He IS talking about saving the "modern elves" - there really isn't anyone else left to save. When the Veil was raised, elves became mortal and began dying off. The vast majority of them are dead. 

[Ashaantha]

All that means is the current state of the Veil is keeping the "modern" elves from "being all they can be". He tells an elven Inquisitor he's gone to the Dalish and tried to tell them the truth or "share knowledge" and many of them didn't want to hear him. He talked with Sera about how she still has a unique connection to the Fade, and the game itself illustrates this by letting an elven Inquisitor see the Fade or Crossroads differently than other race Inquisitors. So you're reading wwaaayyy too much into that. The game makes this point for a reason - to illustrate the elves can be restored.

 

He IS talking about saving the "modern elves" - there really isn't anyone else left to save. When the Veil was raised, elves became mortal and began dying off. The vast majority of them are dead. 

 

I'm almost certain that to a Dalish inquisitor he still says his/her people will die or something along those lines. he's doing this for the remaining ancient elves, not for the "modern" elves.

[Almostfaceman]

I'm almost certain that to a Dalish inquisitor he still says his/her people will die or something along those lines. he's doing this for the remaining ancient elves, not for the "modern" elves.

 

No, he tells the Inquisitor that he thinks the Inquisitor will die, because the Inquisitor is not someone who will join Solas in his endeavor. 

 

Solas is drawing the "modern" elves to him to restore them. There are not enough remaining "ancient" elves to call a people. At least, you have no evidence as such. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's not entirely clear it'll be the same kind of genocide, which is to say that it's not entirely clear (to his mind) that he'll be eradicating something in the same way he did before. He might be killing a lot of people, but he's not going to be fundamentally warping what makes them "people" in the same way. This is what Cole's talk in the romance alludes to (the "if she's real..." line). 

 

I use "In Hushed Whispers" as the analogy, here. When we fix the bad future, we don't see it as genocide. Solas sees what he's doing the same way. 

That's true I suppose, plus genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large group of people" and since he doesn't see modern Thedasians as people then he wouldn't see what he is doing as genocide. 

 

Well, with In Hushed Whispers it depends on how you look at it. For example if you look at it with the Multiverse Theory, then in that timeline nothing changed after you left. If you look at it like everyone alive in that world is alive in this world, then nobody died. If you look at it like the people in that world are different than the people in our world, then it is. And so on and so forth. Time travel is tricky like that. 

 

 

All that means is the current state of the Veil is keeping the "modern" elves from "being all they can be". He tells an elven Inquisitor he's gone to the Dalish and tried to tell them the truth or "share knowledge" and many of them didn't want to hear him. He talked with Sera about how she still has a unique connection to the Fade, and the game itself illustrates this by letting an elven Inquisitor see the Fade or Crossroads differently than other race Inquisitors. So you're reading wwaaayyy too much into that. The game makes this point for a reason - to illustrate the elves can be restored.

 

He IS talking about saving the "modern elves" - there really isn't anyone else left to save. When the Veil was raised, elves became mortal and began dying off. The vast majority of them are dead. 

Throughout the game he has said multiple times how he doesn't see the elves as his people, even confused at the connection for a moment before correcting you that they aren't. When talking to him as an elf in Trespasser, he still says it will be the end of your people. The only people he wants to help are Ancient Elves and Fade entities.  

[Almostfaceman]

Throughout the game he has said multiple times how he doesn't see the elves as his people, even confused at the connection for a moment before correcting you that they aren't. When talking to him as an elf in Trespasser, he still says it will be the end of your people. The only people he wants to help are Ancient Elves and Fade entities.  

 

Yeah, that doesn't explain why the game makes a point of establishing that "modern" elves still have a unique connection to the Fade. Nor does it explain why Solas would take any time at all to try and talk to the Dalish, or Sera, or bring "modern" elves to him in preparation for restoration. 

 

What *does* make sense however is that the "modern" elves aren't his people - but they can be his people. He definitely sees casualties among the modern elves in restoring the Fade and dropping the Veil, but he no where states that all modern elves are doomed or irredeemable. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Yeah, that doesn't explain why the game makes a point of establishing that "modern" elves still have a unique connection to the Fade. Nor does it explain why Solas would take any time at all to try and talk to the Dalish, or Sera, or bring "modern" elves to him in preparation for restoration. 

 

What *does* make sense however is that the "modern" elves aren't his people - but they can be his people. He definitely sees casualties among the modern elves in restoring the Fade and dropping the Veil, but he no where states that all modern elves are doomed or irredeemable. 

Or he is simply gathering an army of followers to help him achieve his goals, even if they don't know they'll die in the process. In the same game we fought someone who did exactly that with Corypheus. Again, he doesn't even see modern elves as people.

[Former_Fiend]

Just throwing my two cents out there, again.

 

Even if we accept that modern elves will be saved/restored/spared from genocide in Solas' plans, I still don't find that any more sympathetic than Corypheus' plan to restore Tevinter at the expense of everyone else. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Just throwing my two cents out there, again.

 

Even if we accept that modern elves will be saved/restored/spared from genocide in Solas' plans, I still don't find that any more sympathetic than Corypheus' plan to restore Tevinter at the expense of everyone else. 

If anything, it makes him less sympathetic since it adds racism to the mix.

Corypheus at least was offering "Bow to your new god and be spared." to people of all nations and races. 

[Former_Fiend]

It's always frightening when me and Hanako agree on something.

[Dai Grepher]

Whenever Solas expresses regret about what he must do or is described as sad about his actions, I keep recalling the Walrus from the tale of the Walrus and the Carpenter.    He encourages the oysters to leave the safety of their bed and come for a pleasant stroll along the beach as a pretext so the pair them can eat them.   When it becomes apparent what they are going to do, "I weep for you", the Walrus said, "I deeply sympathise.   With sobs and tears he sorted out those of the largest size."

 

Solas problem is that he does believe in good and evil or right and wrong; simply purpose and freedom of thought and action.    He thinks he is being kind and benevolent if the people and creatures of Thedas are free and comfortable at the moment of their death.    It is very difficult countering such a person.   

 

Pbtt pah cough cough ahem. The time has come... to talk of other things.

 

I think the counter is to make Solas doubt his own perceptions, either of his past, his plan, or those he is dismissing as expendable.
 

[Former_Fiend]

I think the counter is mounting his head on a spike, but that's just me.

[Dai Grepher]

Hell, Harding even says as much at the end of Jaws of Hakkon. That it makes the Inquisitor seem more than a person, and less.

 

Eh. My Inquisitor cut her off at the pass by saying it doesn't matter how others label them. What matters is what we do. She accepted that.
 

[Dai Grepher]

All that means is the current state of the Veil is keeping the "modern" elves from "being all they can be". He tells an elven Inquisitor he's gone to the Dalish and tried to tell them the truth or "share knowledge" and many of them didn't want to hear him. He talked with Sera about how she still has a unique connection to the Fade, and the game itself illustrates this by letting an elven Inquisitor see the Fade or Crossroads differently than other race Inquisitors. So you're reading wwaaayyy too much into that. The game makes this point for a reason - to illustrate the elves can be restored.

 

He IS talking about saving the "modern elves" - there really isn't anyone else left to save. When the Veil was raised, elves became mortal and began dying off. The vast majority of them are dead. 

 

That's the takeaway I got from it. That also explains why so many elves disappear to follow Solas in the epilogue (though epilogues can't be trusted).

 

Well, he could have been talking about saving spirits. But I don't think it's likely he meant spirits.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Regardless of whether anyone tells him the errors of his ways and redeems him, the man is still responsible for giving Corypheus the orb and allowing him to use in the Temple of Sacred Ashes with the expectation that he and everyone else there would blow up and die horribly. 

 

He's a criminal whose crimes  almost lead to the destruction of the entire world and its likely by the time DA 4 is done he's going to do even more horrendous things, he practically tells you that he well.

 

So, yeah, redemption or not, he's still going to have to face a trial of some kind that likely end with his execution or at the very he should face such a consequence. 

[RoseLawliet]

I think the most believable way to convince Solas not to go through with his plans is to tie him to a chair and lecture him about exactly how the ancient elven civilization wasn't better than modern Thedas. (In fact, I might be tempted to say that the worst tyrant you can imagine, who kills millions every day, eats babies, etc. etc. is still infinitely better than the evanuris because this tyrant will die -- and sooner, rather than later -- offering the possibility of improvement with the next leader. Maybe that's just me.)

 

But why is everyone assuming that redeeming Solas means he'll live? Quite a few redemption stores in the DA series have been the "redemption equals death" trope: Loghain can die killing the archdemon, Zathrian can die to lift the curse, Caridin will kill himself... So I can easily imagine the story of DA4 necessitating Solas' death. Either we kill him, or maybe he sacrifices himself to permanently stabilize the Veil because plot development. And then the stinger would be the reveal of something even worse to try to make us wish he'd lived.

[Mlady]

I'm always amused at people who act like Solas aided Corypheus.

 

Solas let Venatori agents uncover the orb and Corypheus did his own thing without Solas helping him. He was weak from his sleep and could not stop Corypheus even if he tried. How could he run into the temple and end his madness when he would die too from his weakened state? Solas made only one stupid mistake, he hoped when Corypheus unlocked the Orb it would kill him. He did not plot alongside him. He had no idea Corypheus had discovered effective immortality and he didn't know where Corypheus would unlock it until it was too late and he could not do anything to prevent it due to his loss of power. When the explosion happened and the Herald was found, then he realized what a mess he made.