382 réponses à ce sujet

[Korva]

What he is doing can be seen as beyond redemption for many characters and players though. And just because they don't see the redemption path as the right choice doesn't mean all that is left is vengeance. There are dozens of other rationals that work with choosing killing him other redeeming him. 

 

Yup. For example, I find the notion of intended victims having to bend over backwards to maybe, possibly, convince the omnicidal bigot who plans to commit unimaginable atrocities against them to pretty please not do it, to be repulsive beyond words. It doesn't matter a whit that those atrocities may "merely" be fully acceptable collateral damage instead of the primary objective, because all these people will still suffer and die.

 

It's not really that simple. 

 

How is it not? A "friendship" in which one side is honest and the other lies to them, uses them and intends to destroy them is nothing but a grotesque mockery of the term. Solas may think he's being sincere, but that completely ignores the other half of the equation: his "friends" and the fact that their opinion of and feelings towards him are based on deceit from start to finish -- the sort of deceit that would immediately have earned him their rightful enmity if they had known the truth. He has no right to use terms like "friendship" and "respect", and if he had even a smidgin of self-awareness he'd acknowledge that and stop.

 

It's not only about what Solas thinks and feels. Excuses that center entirely on him do the exact same thing that they accuse folks like me of doing: unfairly simplifying the situation. I know fully well he's not a one-dimensional moustache-twirler. The Solas I thought I knew was probably my third favourite NPC and a staple in my canon party along with Cole and Cassandra. He was undeniably well-written and acted, and I'd like to believe in the "friendship" more than I'd like to hate him as an enemy. But I can't ignore the deceit.

 

He can't stop himself but we can. It's just a matter of how much we want to after what he put us through.

 

That is a tremendously dangerous way of thinking, IMO. How many crimes are committed daily because "he couldn't stop himself", and how many of them are never persecuted because society still enables that apology for the "right" perpetrators?

 

I see no reason to think he was forced in any way. In fact, if his tale is supposed to be a tragic one -- or one of redemption, or both -- removing his agency in that manner would invalidate that premise altogether. He's guilty as f*ck and needs to face up to and answer for that. No more lies or ever-so-convenient excuses. If and only if he does that, then maybe I could be able to believe in any possibility of redemption for him.

 

My reply was I keep trying until I make it better because we can't change the past... yeah... he was too happy with that reply.

 

When the post-credits scene with him and Mythal popped up, I immediately remembered that conversation (and some other, similar ones he had with various people) and had a great big "OH SH*T!" moment because it felt like like I/we had unwittlingly encouraged him to carry on with some unknown but likely very bad plan. Obviously, he'd have gone ahead with it no matter what, but that moment of realization/shock/headdesk was still a testament to the brilliant way he was set up in the base game.

[Former_Fiend]

You know, I'd like to think that as far as offering characters chances at redemption, I've been pretty damned magnanimous over the course of the series. Sten, Zevran, even Loghain in Origins. Isabela in DA2. 

 

But there is a line. Anders crossed it, and I slit his throat. And as far as I am concerned, Solas has crossed that line as well. 

[Korva]

And I'm supposed to give Solas more consideration than the countless people I've slaughtered throughout three games... why, exactly? Because he knows my PC's name? Because he painted a mural in my honor? Because he has a martyr complex?

 

Because he's a companion and potential "love interest". That really is at the heart of the matter. They specifically made him a companion to show his better sides while never allowing anyone (especially not the PC) to truly call him on his BS, and they made him a "love interest" to add more drama to his story. Other villains -- nevermind the nameless mooks we gleefully mow down by the thousands -- simply don't get the same chance or consideration. His writing in Inquisition was brilliant, and to be fair it's impossible to give every enemy the sort of treatment he gets. But that does not change the fact that it is special treatment via skilfull emotional manipulation.

 

I don't blame the writers for this, because it is part of their craft. (Well, I do blame them for the "not being allowed to call him on his BS" part, but sadly that isn't even exclusive to Solas by any means.) In fact, I think they did a brilliant job. I will, however, blame them if they continue to push poor-lonely-misunderstood-suffering-Solas-you-should-totally-redeem-him and barely touch on his crimes ... including the way he deceived and used his "friends".

 

Generally speaking, I rather like redemption stories -- hell, one of the things the Inquisition came to be in my mind is a place for second chances for the genuinely remorseful. But that's the rub: Solas isn't, and no amount of emotional manipulation makes up for that.

[Illyria]

Because he's a companion and potential "love interest". That really is at the heart of the matter. They specifically made him a companion to show his better sides while never allowing anyone (especially not the PC) to truly call him on his BS, and they made him a "love interest" to add more drama to his story. Other villains -- nevermind the nameless mooks we gleefully mow down by the thousands -- simply don't get the same chance or consideration. His writing in Inquisition was brilliant, and to be fair it's impossible to give every enemy the sort of treatment he gets. But that does not change the fact that it is special treatment via skilfull emotional manipulation.

 

I don't blame the writers for this, because it is part of their craft. (Well, I do blame them for the "not being allowed to call him on his BS" part, but sadly that isn't even exclusive to Solas by any means.) In fact, I think they did a brilliant job. I will, however, blame them if they continue to push poor-lonely-misunderstood-suffering-Solas-you-should-totally-redeem-him and barely touch on his crimes ... including the way he deceived and used his "friends".

 

Generally speaking, I rather like redemption stories -- hell, one of the things the Inquisition came to be in my mind is a place for second chances for the genuinely remorseful. But that's the rub: Solas isn't, and no amount of emotional manipulation makes up for that.

 

Then how do you account for the fact that Cole believes in Solas?  He has the best insight into Solas' mind given as he's known what his plan was for a long time now.  Cole is the one saying that Solas is worth redemption.  I trust his judgement.

[Wulfram]

Then how do you account for the fact that Cole believes in Solas?  He has the best insight into Solas' mind given as he's known what his plan was for a long time now.  Cole is the one saying that Solas is worth redemption.  I trust his judgement.

Spirits are not balanced, sensible people. Spirit Cole is Compassion and Compassion alone, but a proper judgement needs to include other things.

[Illyria]

Spirits are not balanced, sensible people. Spirit Cole is Compassion and Compassion alone, but a proper judgement needs to include other things.

 

The same can be said for humans.

 

Cole's insights are proven right again and again.  Why are his views on Solas any different?
 

[Wulfram]

The same can be said for humans.
 
Cole's insights are proven right again and again.  Why are his views on Solas any different?

I don't say he's wrong in objective sense, I say his priorities are skewed. Solas' heart is not pure black, there is something in him worth saving, there is a chance of persuading him to change course - I'll accept Cole's statements on that. But I won't trust his judgement when it comes to balancing all those things against the possible end of the world.

I also think Cole places too little weight on justice. Solas' crimes are not small, and shouldn't be forgotten.

[Korva]

Then how do you account for the fact that Cole believes in Solas?  He has the best insight into Solas' mind given as he's known what his plan was for a long time now.  Cole is the one saying that Solas is worth redemption.  I trust his judgement.

 

Before Trespasser, that is why I held on to the hope that whatever Solas is up to might not be as bad as it looks. Now, though, I can't believe he knew everything -- it is a fact that Solas can and does both hide things from him and actively erase parts of his memory. If however he did know the whole plan the whole time, then the writers carelessly sacrificed one character on the altar of another's story and further emotional manipulation of the player. I am not impressed with Trespasser, frankly, and the way Cole is used and treated is one of the biggest reasons.

 

As I have said before in other threads on this subject, Cole is not stupid and he is not spineless. In an imperfect world and as a non-omnipotent being, Compassion needs to make hard judgement calls when someone is in pain but also causing pain to others. You can't coddle or enable the perpetrator at the expense of the victims and call that compassion ... at least not the near-universal kind that Cole embodies as opposed to be very biased, flawed and human tendency to value a (supposed) friend or "LI" above everyone else.

 

Independently of the outcome of his quest, he repeatedly shows that he is both willing and able to draw a deadly line in the sand, and that line is clearly defined. Early on he (harshly) says to Blackwall: "You would stop it if you could. That is enough. But don't do it again." And when the more-spirit version of him is asked if he can still fight, his reply is: "It's harder when it's people. Venatori, bandits, people who could change. But they chose. They hurt people. We have to stop them. My blades are yours to command."

 

Solas is neither willing to stop what he is doing, nor even willing to stop making excuses for himself, nor willing to pay any kind of price for his deeds. He choses to hurt people. He already has hurt people, and it's entirely possible that he still doesn't think of the modern folks of Thedas as people at all (*). He fails to check any of the boxes on the list that make the likes of Blackwall, Ser Ruth, the templar whose neglect caused the original Cole's death, or the better members of the templar order as embodied by Ser Barris potentially redeemable in some way and to some degree or another.

 

(*) Though to be fair, I think it's nonsense that the writers hinge Solas' opinion on everyone entirely on the Inquisitor while apparently ignoring his interactions with the other people of the Inquisition? Those should count for something, too, even when he and the Inquisitor hold each other in mutual comtempt. Cassandra in particular is someone who had a unique and fascinating relationship with him as well ... but of course, at the same time she's also the one most likely to be howling for his blood the loudest given how much she hates liars and traitors.

 

Long story short, they can't keep piling lie and lie and crime after crime at Solas' feet and still use Cole to make vapid excuses for him, because that ignores established aspects of Cole's character and utterly leads him ad absurdum. I don't expect Cole to hate Solas of course, but using him solely as the uncontested, unreflected mouthpiece for that poor-little-Solas redemption angle is BS in my book.

[Illyria]

I don't say he's wrong in objective sense, I say his priorities are skewed. Solas' heart is not pure black, there is something in him worth saving, there is a chance of persuading him to change course - I'll accept Cole's statements on that. But I won't trust his judgement when it comes to balancing all those things against the possible end of the world.

I also think Cole places too little weight on justice. Solas' crimes are not small, and shouldn't be forgotten.

 

So far Solas hasn't actually committed any crimes.  Unless you count 'misleading his friends'.  That's it.

[In Exile]

I just spent one game trying to stop an ancient, powerful mage who awakened after centuries of sleep to find that their actions involving the fade lead to the destruction of the society they held dear, and who resolved to restore that society even at the cost of destroying just about all of the current world.

I'm not inclined to find Solas more sympathetic than Corypheus just because Solas' resolve in his actions is weaker and he's tormented by guilt and self pity. If anything I'm more inclined to respect Corypheus over Solas because at least Corypheus doesn't make any apologies for what he's determined to do.

I don't wish there was an option to not kill Corypheus, so I won't be passing on an option to kill Solas.

That's kind of the point of DAI - Corypheus is what we think and expect a fantasy villain to be like. Solas is the subversion and deconstruction of the trope. Same basic villain, more modern packaging.

[Wulfram]

So far Solas hasn't actually committed any crimes.  Unless you count 'misleading his friends'.  That's it.

I count giving his Orb to Corypheus as a major crime. You can say that things didn't go as he planned but:

A: He was giving an object of vast magical power to the evil guy who unleashed the blight. Bad Things happening was a foreseeable risk
B: What he planned was to kill everyone, so he doesn't get any credit for good intentions

I'm not a lawyer and I can't say whether he's guilty of Negligent Homicide, Attempted Murder, Murder or Genocide, but at least one of those must fit.

[Korva]

He murdered Felassan for thinking of people as people. He gave the orb to Corypheus. He killed Flemeth to leech Mythal as an alternative way to get the power he craves. (She didn't fight back and is probably going to extract a price at some point, I think, because just lying down and accepting death seems badly OOC for both of them -- but it's still murder.) And those are just the ones we know of. Do you really think that someone who doesn't/didn't view anyone but spirits and the ancient elves as real and is actively working towards the goal of destroying the world hasn't committed any wrongs in the process? Or that the fact that he is working towards that goal isn't a crime in and of itself?

 

And yes, I absolutely view the way he deceived, used, discarded and plans to destroy his "friends" as a crime, as well as a hurt that Cole would not just ignore.

[Illyria]

I count giving his Orb to Corypheus as a major crime. You can say that things didn't go as he planned but:

A: He was giving an object of vast magical power to the evil guy who unleashed the blight. Bad Things happening was a foreseeable risk
B: What he planned was to kill everyone, so he doesn't get any credit for good intentions

I'm not a lawyer and I can't say whether he's guilty of Negligent Homicide, Attempted Murder, Murder or Genocide, but at least one of those must fit.

 

And Hawke sets Coryfish free.  But we don't blame her for DAI.  Protagonists get away with doing crap like this.  NPCs don't.

 

And Solas' plan isn't to kill everyone.  His plan is to bring down the veil.  If there's a way to do that without killing everyone he'll take it.
 

[Illyria]

He murdered Felassan for thinking of people as people. He gave the orb to Corypheus. He killed Flemeth to leech Mythal as an alternative way to get the power he craves. (She didn't fight back and is probably going to extract a price at some point, I think, because just lying down and accepting death seems badly OOC for both of them -- but it's still murder.) And those are just the ones we know of. Do you really think that someone who doesn't view anyone but spirits and the ancient elves as real and is actively working towards the goal of destroying the world hasn't committed any wrongs in the process?

 

And yes, I absolutely view the way he deceived, used, discarded and plans to destroy his "friends" as a crime, as well as a hurt that Cole would not just ignore.

 

Killing an agent for failing him is exactly what PCs get to do all the time.  A lot of the people I've seen yelling about Felassan are the same ones who want to murderknife everyone, and complain about their murderknife targets surviving.

 

What he did with Mythal seemed to be mutual.  And Solas doesn't crave power.

 

Hawke set Corypheus free.

 

Yes, Solas didn't seen anyone as 'real' but in his position can you blame him?  2000 years asleep and he wakes up in what is basically post-apocalyptic Thedas.

 

And he's not trying to destroy the world - he's trying to bring down the veil.  If there was a chance to do that without killing everyone he would do that.

 

And believe me, it's taken me a long time to forgive Solas for killing Best Elf Felassan.
 

[Wulfram]

And Hawke sets Coryfish free.  But we don't blame her for DAI.  Protagonists get away with doing crap like this.  NPCs don't.

To quote the Inquisitor "'Brutally murdered' isn't quite the same as 'unleashed upon the world', Varric". Hawke acted reasonably and without bad intent. Solas acted recklessly, and with the intent of killing everyone.
 

And Solas' plan isn't to kill everyone.  His plan is to bring down the veil.  If there's a way to do that without killing everyone he'll take it.

His plan is to kill everyone. He might change plans if a better option is shown to him, but that is the plan he was and is acting on.
Before meeting and becoming friends with the Inquisitor I don't see much sign that he was looking very hard for another option. Modern people aren't people after all.

[Illyria]

To quote the Inquisitor "'Brutally murdered' isn't quite the same as 'unleashed upon the world', Varric". Hawke acted reasonably and without bad intent. Solas acted recklessly, and with the intent of killing everyone.
 

His plan is to kill everyone. He might change plans if a better option is shown to him, but that is the plan he was and is acting on.
Before meeting and becoming friends with the Inquisitor I don't see much sign that he was looking very hard for another option. Modern people aren't people after all.

 

We didn't see the people in the bad future as people.
 

[Wulfram]

We didn't see the people in the bad future as people.

Changing the future isn't the same as killing people. Unless every action you ever take is genocide.

[TheEggCrusher]

*pops in* 

 

Hello, I'm half asleep as well as chronically angry and in love with Solas at all times, so I thought I would distribute my slightly delusional opinions to the people. (you're welcome)

Because people are arguing about Solas, and comments seem to be encroaching on whether he's a "good guy" or not, I'm going to try and address my opinions on Solas in the most neutral (my version at least) but honest way possible.

 

1. he's an *sshole. I'm basically him 90% of the time and I'm a complete *sshole. You know how Solas talks and treats people? yeah, that's me. I even have the same posture as him (I was a ballet dancer for like 10 years so maybe that's why). Basically, it's undeniable: he's a tough guy to be around in general. Not saying he's a "bad guy" but yes, he is, in my deffiniton, an *sshole. 
2. he is morally grey but with good intentions. meaning he's not good or bad, but his intentions are always good at heart *long term* (I'm seriously trying to put emphasis on long term because, like I said, he's an ******* and is also morally grey, meaning he can do pretty crappy stuff .. like kill Best Elf^{Fellasan I'll never forget you})
3. is what he's doing (sacrificing the world to bring back the elven glory) right? From a morally good point of view, no. From my evil Solas point of view, which is predominantly my personality except when I haven't slept for 3 days like right now, than yes, for long term results. Like I said, I'm an *sshole. 

 

So those were my three opinions.

 

My overall point is that Solas is the master of "middle ground." There's no "he's evil" "he's good" "he's crazy" about him. He doesn't fit any of those singular perspectives. As Weekes said in the interview, Solas is hella complicated and nuanced. Arguing over things like whether or not he's a good guy is going to get you no where. Because that answer really isn't anything but: he's just Solas, a speciul snoeflaek who is annoying to be around and pisses the average person off ... a lot.

 

Fight me. whatever. I'm going to sleepies  

[Robert Cousland]

Wow, I really started something with this thread.

 

[Illyria]

Changing the future isn't the same as killing people. Unless every action you ever take is genocide.

 

Except Leliana calls the Inquisitor and Dorian out for not seeing them as real.  And at then end of the quest you stop that future from happening, essentially wiping out the people who existed in that future.

 

Not the same, but they are similar. 
 

[CardButton]

Man I am really curious what Solas is actually trying to accomplish with bringing down the Veil, because it is rather apparent that he isn't trying to save the Elven peoples of Thedas (after all, if he has no intention of saving the only one of them he could potentially care about he has no intention of saving any of them).

 

Who then exactly does he intend to save by bringing down the Veil?  Are there still bastions of Ancient Elvhen hibernating throughout Thedas?  Are there perhaps Elvhen that were trapped physically on the other side of the Veil after it went up (outside of the Evenuras of course)?  His desperation doesn't seem to stem from something as petty as "wanting to bring back the glory of the Elven people" as much as it seems to be some sort of desperate attempt to save the last of those Solas actually considers to be "his people" (if he is anything like Abelas he does not consider the current Elves that).  Heck, I don't even think he entirely knows what will happen if the Veil comes crashing down at this point, he is just stating that if the outcome is the literal destruction of Current Thedas he is willing to still risk it (which considering Sandal's prophecy in DA2, I'm starting to think less and less will be the end result even if he does succeed).  

[Illyria]

Man I am really curious what Solas is actually trying to accomplish with bringing down the Veil, because it is rather apparent that he isn't trying to save the Elven peoples of Thedas (after all, if he has no intention of saving the only one of them he could potentially care about he has no intention of saving any of them).

 

Who then exactly does he intend to save by bringing down the Veil?  Are there still bastions of Ancient Elvhen hibernating throughout Thedas?  Are there perhaps Elvhen that were trapped physically on the other side of the Veil after it went up (outside of the Evenuras of course)?  His desperation doesn't seem to stem from something as petty as "wanting to bring back the glory of the Elven people" as much as it seems to be some sort of desperate attempt to save the last of those Solas actually considers to be "his people" (if he is anything like Abelas he does not consider the current Elves that).  Heck, I don't even think he entirely knows what will happen if the Veil comes crashing down at this point, he is just stating that if the outcome is the literal destruction of Current Thedas he is willing to still risk it (which considering Sandal's prophecy in DA2, I'm starting to think less and less will be the end result even if he does succeed).  

 

From the romance banter with Cole this seems to be case.  Cole senses something behind that mirror that's trapped.  Judging from the way Solas talks about the gods this isn't referring to them.

 

I think Solas just assumes everything to going to go to hell.  After all, he wrecks pretty much everything he touches.  There's a reason his fans tend to call him the God of Bad Descions.

 

I think in DA4 we're going to find that the veil needs to come down, and the plot is going to involve doing it safely, or just wrecking Thedas.  I'd like big, tough descions like 'we have to sacrifice that city there to save two more here'.

[Boost32]

And what about the other people he could help if he was redeemed instead of killed?

Which people? And how do you know he will help anyone?
And what about the people who could have stayed alive if instead of hesitating the PC killed him instead?

[TheEggCrusher]

Wow, I really started something with this thread.

 

you *points* I like you

 

and your profile picture 

 

that grin is like "I like to watch the DA fandom burn" 

 

It's perfect lol

[Illyria]

Which people? And how do you know he will help anyone?
And what about the people who could have stayed alive if instead of hesitating the PC killed him instead?

 

Because that's pretty much all Solas wants to do?

 

Did... did you even play the game?