382 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

Because that's pretty much all Solas wants to do?
 
Did... did you even play the game?

Did you even read the previous post? This is the second time you you are a smatass, if you don't want to have a discussion with me just doesn't quote me.

[Ariella]

Yeah, that doesn't explain why the game makes a point of establishing that "modern" elves still have a unique connection to the Fade. Nor does it explain why Solas would take any time at all to try and talk to the Dalish, or Sera, or bring "modern" elves to him in preparation for restoration. 
 
What *does* make sense however is that the "modern" elves aren't his people - but they can be his people. He definitely sees casualties among the modern elves in restoring the Fade and dropping the Veil, but he no where states that all modern elves are doomed or irredeemable.

The Claw of Dumat in the Fade at Adamant bears this out.

Corypheus was told by the whispers he heard that elves were to be used as sacrifice in order to enter the Fade because the power in their blood.

Just an observation.

[Abyss108]

Which people? And how do you know he will help anyone?
And what about the people who could have stayed alive if instead of hesitating the PC killed him instead?

 

I know he will help people because he spent his entire life trying to help people. Everyone would still be slaves to the Evanuris if he didn't exist. He spent the entire game helping people after his mistake.

 

No one would have stayed alive because the PC hesitated, because I didn't say the PC should stand back and let him kill people. I already repeatedly said killing him is better than letting him destroy the world. But redeeming him is better than killing him. Neither require hesitating or letting him kill people.

[Boost32]

I know he will help people because he spent his entire life trying to help people. Everyone would still be slaves to the Evanuris if he didn't exist. He spent the entire game helping people after his mistake.
 
No one would have stayed alive because the PC hesitated, because I didn't say the PC should stand back and let him kill people. I already repeatedly said killing him is better than letting him destroy the world. But redeeming him is better than killing him. Neither require hesitating or letting him kill people.

He helped his people, everyone else be dammed. I don't he will help anyone besides the ancient elves.

Do you think he will kill no one and wait for you to talk him down? He should be put down the first opportunity the next PC have, the long he stay alive more people will die.
Tell me, what if when you try to redeem him, he kill thousands of people because you didn't tried to fight him and he escape, will you try again in the next encounter?

[Former_Fiend]

That's kind of the point of DAI - Corypheus is what we think and expect a fantasy villain to be like. Solas is the subversion and deconstruction of the trope. Same basic villain, more modern packaging.

 

And I am sure that'll lead to interesting conversations with him before I cut his head off and mount it on a spike, but the end result is the same.

[Korva]

Killing an agent for failing him is exactly what PCs get to do all the time.

 

Cole states that Solas' "friend" had to die because he thought not-people were people. Sure, on one level it's a failure to this original master. But at the same time, growing a damn conscience and objecting to the destruction of the world and everyone within it is laudable. He didn't get to have his own redemption story because Solas cut it short along with his life, and while I have no interest in "franchise fiction" or other tie-ins, that change of heart alone makes him a better candidate for such a story, IMO, than anything Solas does in Inquisition ... because all of Solas' better sides and moments -- which undeniably exist, otherwise I wouldn't be so affected by his betrayal -- are tainted by his lies and his refusal to diverge from his atrocious plans.

 

A lot of the people I've seen yelling about Felassan are the same ones who want to murderknife everyone, and complain about their murderknife targets surviving.

 

*shrug* I for one don't play evil characters, don't murder or make other "evil" choices just for lulz or because someone slighted me, don't mourn the reduction of such choices in this game, and in fact have long been in favor of tighter restrictions on and consequences for player actions to better fit the protagonist's intended role in what is, in a Bioware game, a hero's journey more often than not. In other words, being critical of Solas and not seeing any credible reason for redemption for him is not the same as wanting to play a no-holds-barred murderous power trip. Sure, there are people like that ... just as there are people in whose eyes Solas can do no wrong because he's their "LI" and thus the only one who matters at all. Both are camps that I can't be on the same page with.

 

What he did with Mythal seemed to be mutual.  And Solas doesn't crave power.

 

Sure he does. The power of the orb, the power to tear down the Veil, the power the old elves had back in their day of living and breathing magic. He has his reasons and excuses (because of course he does), but that does not negate the fact that he pursues that power and his plans with such ruthlessness that there don't seem to be many lines he won't cross.

 

Hawke set Corypheus free.

 

That isn't even remotely the same, as others have said -- and Hawke doesn't see herself as too important to pay the consequences of her honest mistake, while Solas explicitly does just that regarding the acts he willingly committed.

 

Yes, Solas didn't seen anyone as 'real' but in his position can you blame him?  2000 years asleep and he wakes up in what is basically post-apocalyptic Thedas.

 

Sure I can. I can have sympathy for the guy while at the same time refusing to excuse his attitude or his actions.

 

And he's not trying to destroy the world - he's trying to bring down the veil.  If there was a chance to do that without killing everyone he would do that.

 

Semantics. As I said, it doesn't matter a whit whether it is the primary objective or wholly acceptable collateral damage. The fact that he is doing it at all makes him exactly the kind of monster with a god complex that he loudly protests he isn't.

 

We will not agree on this. I cannot make any excuses for him, because nothing comes close to outweighing or even remotely balancing that atrocity. And I wish that wasn't true. I wish I could still like and enjoy this character despite his many flaws. I wish the hard-won, challenging, intellectually and philosophically stimulating, sometimes very rocky but ultimately mutually respectful despite all differences friendship I thought my Inquisitor had with him was real instead of based on deceit.

 

Protagonists get away with doing crap like this.  NPCs don't.

 

Eh. Again, Hawke make a mistake and was deceived, and nonetheless blames herself and does anything she can to make up for it. Yes, sometimes Bioware let their PCs get away with all sorts of flat-out evil BS ... but they also frequently let NPCs walk all over the PCs without allowing us to do anything about it. Solas is part of the untouchable god-tier circle of writers' favourite NPCs around whom (not around the PCs) the setting ultimately revolves. But even less god-tier NPCs get to do it a lot.

[Illyria]

Cole states that Solas' "friend" had to die because he thought not-people were people. Sure, on one level it's a failure to this original master. But at the same time, growing a damn conscience and objecting to the destruction of the world and everyone within it is laudable. He didn't get to have his own redemption story because Solas cut it short along with his life, and while I have no interest in "franchise fiction" or other tie-ins, that change of heart alone makes him a better candidate for such a story, IMO, than anything Solas does in Inquisition ... because all of Solas' better sides and moments -- which undeniably exist, otherwise I wouldn't be so affected by his betrayal -- are tainted by his lies and his refusal to diverge from his atrocious plans.

 

 

*shrug* I for one don't play evil characters, don't murder or make other "evil" choices just for lulz or because someone slighted me, don't mourn the reduction of such choices in this game, and in fact have long been in favor of tighter restrictions on and consequences for player actions to better fit the protagonist's intended role in what is, in a Bioware game, a hero's journey more often than not. In other words, being critical of Solas and not seeing any credible reason for redemption for him is not the same as wanting to play a no-holds-barred murderous power trip. Sure, there are people like that ... just as there are people in whose eyes Solas can do no wrong because he's their "LI" and thus the only one who matters at all. Both are camps that I can't be on the same page with.

 

 

Sure he does. The power of the orb, the power to tear down the Veil, the power the old elves had back in their day of living and breathing magic. He has his reasons and excuses (because of course he does), but that does not negate the fact that he pursues that power and his plans with such ruthlessness that there don't seem to be many lines he won't cross.

 

 

That isn't even remotely the same, as others have said -- and Hawke doesn't see herself as too important to pay the consequences of her honest mistake, while Solas explicitly does just that regarding the acts he willingly committed.

 

 

Sure I can. I can have sympathy for the guy while at the same time refusing to excuse his attitude or his actions.

 

 

Semantics. As I said, it doesn't matter a whit whether it is the primary objective or wholly acceptable collateral damage. The fact that he is doing it at all makes him exactly the kind of monster with a god complex that he loudly protests he isn't.

 

We will not agree on this. I cannot make any excuses for him, because nothing comes close to outweighing or even remotely balancing that atrocity. And I wish that wasn't true. I wish I could still like and enjoy this character despite his many flaws. I wish the hard-won, challenging, intellectually and philosophically stimulating, sometimes very rocky but ultimately mutually respectful despite all differences friendship I thought my Inquisitor had with him was real instead of based on deceit.

 

 

Eh. Again, Hawke make a mistake and was deceived, and nonetheless blames herself and does anything she can to make up for it. Yes, sometimes Bioware let their PCs get away with all sorts of flat-out evil BS ... but they also frequently let NPCs walk all over the PCs without allowing us to do anything about it. Solas is part of the untouchable god-tier circle of writers' favourite NPCs around whom (not around the PCs) the setting ultimately revolves. But even less god-tier NPCs get to do it a lot.

 

I'm not making excuses.  I just think he's a character who is far from being black and white evil.  Plus, I still see a lot good in him.

[kimgoold]

Personally, I'd rather trap him with the other Evanuris. I doubt anything we'd get the choice to do with him could come close to what Elgar'nan would do to him.

now thats what I call poetic justice

[Ardent Blossom]

So this is what? Like a complete the thought sort of thread? Yes that must be it. Let's see. Oh I have it!

 

Solas...dammit. Where did you buy those schmexy pants?

or maybe

Solas...dammit. Why you so fine?

no this is it

Solas...dammit. I can't quit you, ma sa'lath.

 

Seriously though, I couldn't kill my favorite fade nerd. If I play my Quizzy again, and she can't redeem him, then she is going down with the "ship." Imagine the beautiful tragedy of it...the whole of Thedas burning because one woman can't kill the man-god-monster she loves. It is only a video game, so I am allowed to make terrible decisions for personal reasons if I darn well feel like it. Also, killing Solas would be a terrible waste of thighs. 

 

 Have a turkeyrific day!  

 

PS Whoever suggested making him tranquil...ouch! I'm glad you're not my enemy. 

[Dai Grepher]

My take on Solas is that he only knows certain mysteries of existence, and he thinks this makes him smarter or wiser than everyone else. Oh, you can't imagine or dream like I can, therefore you are not sentient like me. But he has proven time and again to be incorrect or foolish. Allowing anyone to find his orb was objectively stupid. Even if you don't see living beings as having any worth, it is illogical to allow anyone to take the orb and unlock it in an unspecified location where it can be easily taken by anyone nearby who survives the blast. Even if Corypheus had not regenerated and reclaimed the orb so quickly, the Chantry soldiers would have either found it or restricted the area in which is was located until someone like Cassandra found it.

 

He should have just had one of his own agents unlock it, or wait until he was powerful enough to unlock it.

 

I think he is also mistaken about a few things he thinks he knows. For example. He thought Mythal was murdered, and seemed surprised she was still alive in some form. Then he says the first of his kind do not die so easily. So then how could the evanuris have murdered Mythal if she didn't die? And I doubt he's remembering the events of Elvhenan correctly. And I don't think he completely understands what the Veil is or how it interacted with Elvhenan. I think after being asleep for so long he is forgetting what it was really like.

 

He's also a hypocrite. He hates the human mages who twisted his friend, and can even kill them for it, and he also lectures an Inquisitor who tries to say spirits aren't the same as people. Yet he is now doing exactly what those human mages were doing. Preserve my thing at the cost of your thing. Spirits aren't people, non-elves and non-spirits aren't people. It's the same mentality that infuriated him.

[Ariella]

Irrespective of how anyone else feels about Solas being a friend, Solas believes it of himself. If he didn't he wouldn't want to be proven wrong if you are friendly and you offer to redeem him.

We don't offer redemption because people deserve it. Partially because so many people put such a high bar on what 'deserve' means. We offer redemption and forgiveness, we show compassion be cause *we* need to. Because the day we can't offer those things is the day we admit we've severed ties with our humanity.

And no, I'm not just talking about games, and no, I didn't say 'won't' I said 'can't'.

There's an old Hebrew... proverb, I suppose. Many might be familiar with part of it:

Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. Whoever saves a life, it is to be considered as if he saved an entire world.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

Yeah, that doesn't explain why the game makes a point of establishing that "modern" elves still have a unique connection to the Fade. Nor does it explain why Solas would take any time at all to try and talk to the Dalish, or Sera, or bring "modern" elves to him in preparation for restoration. 
 
What *does* make sense however is that the "modern" elves aren't his people - but they can be his people. He definitely sees casualties among the modern elves in restoring the Fade and dropping the Veil, but he no where states that all modern elves are doomed or irredeemable.

He does say to a respected non-elven friend or romanced Lavellan, "The return of my people means the end of yours." That tells me he places modern elves in the same category as every other modern race. But I get what you're saying. I can't help but wonder how much of what he says is an assumption on his part, given his propensity to underestimate the capabilities of the modern folks of Thedas, and how much is fact.

[Former_Fiend]

Like I said, I'm perfectly capable of offering redemption. Sten, Zevran, Loghain, Isabela, and Blackwall can all attest to that. 

 

In Solas' case, like in Anders' case, I'm simply choosing not to. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Those that claim solas is being "evil" or not "thoughtful of the cost" of his plan to cast down the veil seem hypocritical to me. "How dare he try to rectify his mistake and help his people" as if that is not the rationale course of action for any living being. If the intelligent darkspawn were to grow into prominence tomorrow and enslave humanity, especially if you had a hand in letting it happen, tell me with a straight face what you wouldn't sacrifice anything to restore things back to the way things were. I do not blame them for their hate for Solas, it is expected of beings who desire simplicity, and cannot fight for survival without having to see a foe as something they can hate with every fiber of their being. Madman, liar, delusional ruthless determinator- Solas is branded that but that is everyone in truth. Not that they care, they go to any lengths to stop Solas' plan yet expect Solas to show restraint when they do not? Lot's of hypocrisy imo.

 

Fact is Solas is trying to rectify a mistake that destroyed his people and enslaved the spirits to the Veil. While the others thrived because of his mistake. To him, even if it costs the life of humans, his actions cost the downfall of his people and the spirits. He seeks to rectify that mistake. That makes him a threat, and so humanity will hate him for simplicity no matter how moral his rationale objectively is. If he dies, then he dies, not that he doesn't deserve it as he himself has said he has done things worthy of such retribution, but his desire to rectify his mistake or his lying I cannot say is "absolute evil" as his detractor's say.

[Former_Fiend]

Given that we just spent a whole game trying to prevent Corypheus from doing the same thing for the same reason - tear down the veil to rectify his mistake and restore his people - I think it would be hypocritical to treat Solas any differently.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Given that we just spent a whole game trying to prevent Corypheus from doing the same thing for the same reason - tear down the veil to rectify his mistake and restore his people - I think it would be hypocritical to treat Solas any differently.

Fair enough but don't give him **** for not looking at you as "people".

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think the most infuriating thing about Solas right now is that the upcoming conflict with him seems completely unnecessary. I get why he's doing what he's doing. I get that he feels guilty about what he did to his people. I get why he sees everyone on Thedas as near soulless creatures with only a small amount of worth. And get why he thinks modern elves aren't his people. I get it. I also get why Sera, Vivienne and even Corypheus act the way they do. Doesn't change the fact that their being stupid, hypocritical and frustrating. 

 

Solas has the power of a god at this point and the knowledge of ages at his beck and call, but instead of actually using that power to make the world better for not only elves but for people in general, he decides to throw the chessboard and destroy everything. He could use his powers to help the elves of today, reveal the truth of elven history and possibly even lead them to a new homeland with the help of eluvian network, but no. He has to bring back the elfy elves because modern elves aren't magicky enough and because he has a major guilt complex. I mean, honestly, it's not even as if all the ancient elves are all dead. The sentinel elves could of easily escaped after the Temple of Mythal and if they managed to be around after for so long after the fall of their empire it's just as possible that even more exist as well. He could rebuilt and while it won't be like the old empire (which could very well be more of a positive thing in retrospect) but it would be something. Instead he risks his ancient elf agents and is likely deceiving modern elves into assisting in their own destruction, once again giving human supremacists a reason to go rabbit hunting in the Dales and burn alienages. 

 

He sort of reminds me of Anders (Solas isn't as annoying) now that i think about it. Another guy who should of kept to helping people instead of masterminding insane plots. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

He's not "destroying the chessboard", he's taking away the pieces on the other side so he can get more pieces on his side.

 

And elves are dying off, they lost their immortality, they will forever be the minority, and they breed with humans to make more humans. Something's got to give.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Fair enough but don't give him **** for not looking at you as "people".

 

Oh, he sees us as people if you befriend him. Doesn't change the fact that sees the people of Thedas as less important and worthy of existence then the old elves. Which is really quite shitty. 

[CardButton]

Yes he is a hypocrite, but Solas is an intriguing character because of his strange perspective on the world (not correct by any means, but unique).  For many a dreamer and mage the Fade is a chaotic mirror image of the real world, one in which they only need visit during times of unconsciousness and therefore somehow removed from what is real (hence the reason so many do not consider Spirits "People").  The fade, to them, is simply less "real" than the physical world.  For Solas the reverse seems to be true.

 

Perhaps he simply spent too much time in hibernation (thousands of years locked in the dreams of the Fade, for a person who already seemed very attached to them to begin with).  Perhaps it is the stark contrast between the Physical world he left behind and the one he awoke to.  Perhaps it is simply an excuse he must tell himself to do what he believes needs to be done to save his own endangered species (the Ancient Elvhen).  Regardless this is why I assumed the ally Inquisitor (and especially LI Inquisitor) scares him to such a degree, they are becoming something real in "his" world of dreams.  If they become real, then this unfamiliar world must be real.  If this unfamiliar world is real, then how can he justify sacrificing it?

 

Those with a Negative relationship with them proved to him that this "dream world" he finds himself in has nothing in it worth saving (therefore stopping him anyway possible is required).  For those with a Positive relationship with him the goal is merely pushing him over the edge of his own reality and forcing him to confront what he may or may not consider "real" (Saving the world means saving Solas from his own delusion). 

[Former_Fiend]

Fair enough but don't give him **** for not looking at you as "people".

 

How about I give him **** for planning on murdering literally everyone?

 

Actually, instead of giving him ****, I'll just give him a blade.

[Sports72Xtrm]

How about I give him **** for planning on murdering literally everyone?

 

Actually, instead of giving him ****, I'll just give him a blade.

Well as he says, he does not fear death.

 

Oh, he sees us as people if you befriend him. Doesn't change the fact that sees the people of Thedas as less important and worthy of existence then the old elves. Which is really quite shitty. 

If your are a friend. But it's like being friends with a darkspawn, you can show compassion but they are a threat to you. Did you sacrifice the reapers and the ai in mass effect? It's sort of that mentality. It's you or them.

[Former_Fiend]

Well as he says, he does not fear death.

 

 

He does, actually. Fears it more than anything, under the condition that he dies alone.

 

Which would be the way I'd have it, but I'm not picky.

[ComedicSociopathy]

If your are a friend. But it's like being friends with a darkspawn, you can show compassion but they are a threat to you. Did you sacrifice the reapers and the ai in mass effect. It's sort of that mentality. It's you or them.

 

And in that scenario their other options available. Like I said Solas doesn't have to do this. A few of the ancient elves are alive. Solas has access to the eluvians which can take him and his people into the Fade which as a dreamer he can likely shape and manipulate the Fade into anything he desires. It won't be the same as before, but it will be a lot less self-destruction and doomed to failure as his current idea. 

[Ardent Blossom]

 

 

I think he is also mistaken about a few things he thinks he knows. For example. He thought Mythal was murdered, and seemed surprised she was still alive in some form. Then he says the first of his kind do not die so easily. So then how could the evanuris have murdered Mythal if she didn't die? And I doubt he's remembering the events of Elvhenan correctly. And I don't think he completely understands what the Veil is or how it interacted with Elvhenan. I think after being asleep for so long he is forgetting what it was really like.

 

 

I've thought a lot about this lately. Why did he simultaneously think Mythal was dead and know the first of his people did not die easily? They made it sound like Solas created the veil and imprisoned/exiled the evanuris as revenge for "killing" Mythal. That just doesn't make sense. Either Weekes wrote that extremely poorly, Solas is just an emotional idiot, or we are being left out of the loop on some really important detail. I'm leaning toward the last, but video game writing isn't always stellar.