382 réponses à ce sujet

[ComedicSociopathy]

I've thought a lot about this lately. Why did he simultaneously think Mythal was dead and know the first of his people did not die easily? They made it sound like Solas created the veil and imprisoned/exiled the evanuris as revenge for "killing" Mythal. That just doesn't make sense. Either Weekes wrote that extremely poorly, Solas is just an emotional idiot, or we are being left out of the loop on some really important detail. I'm leaning toward the last, but video game writing isn't always stellar. 

 

I just assumed that Solas believed that with Mythal dead he was the only one left capable of stopping the Evanuris from utterly destroying the world. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

And in that scenario their other options available. Like I said Solas doesn't have to do this. A few of the ancient elves are alive. Solas has access to the eluvians which can take him and his people into the Fade which as a dreamer he can likely shape and manipulate the Fade into anything he desires. It won't be the same as before, but it will be a lot less self-destruction and doomed to failure as his current idea. 

The Fade is a prison not a sancturary. Elves desire their birthright. Though if there is a "redeem solas" option, there would be a compromise where he'd at least open part of the veil to let a little magic back in, for the spirits to be free, for his elves to thrive, and he will desire to live on to look after them like Mythal.

 

What did Mythal tell Merrill? "The people bow too quickly."

[CardButton]

I've thought a lot about this lately. Why did he simultaneously think Mythal was dead and know the first of his people did not die easily? They made it sound like Solas created the veil and imprisoned/exiled the evanuris as revenge for "killing" Mythal. That just doesn't make sense. Either Weekes wrote that extremely poorly, Solas is just an emotional idiot, or we are being left out of the loop on some really important detail. I'm leaning toward the last, but video game writing isn't always stellar. 

1) I don't believe what is left of Mythal is her whole self, she certainly hasn't exhibited a whole lot of compassion (very justice oriented).

2) Perhaps the very act of them murdering her was enough of an offense that he saw them as irredeemable.

[Abyss108]

He helped his people, everyone else be dammed. I don't he will help anyone besides the ancient elves.

Do you think he will kill no one and wait for you to talk him down? He should be put down the first opportunity the next PC have, the long he stay alive more people will die.
Tell me, what if when you try to redeem him, he kill thousands of people because you didn't tried to fight him and he escape, will you try again in the next encounter?

 

He spent the entire game helping people. As I've repeatedly said, he gains influence with you every single time you help someone that isn't "his people". The only reason he carries on with his plan is because he believes there is no other option to save his people, and modern people are going to die anyway.

 

I certainly don't plan on trying to talk him down whilst he has the power to escape or harm anyone else, that's idiocy. When I say I'm going to redeem him, that doesn't mean I plan to stand there whilst he murders people and go "gee Solas, please don't hurt my people because of our feelings for each other, it makes me so saaaaaad~   ". I'm going to destroy his armies, outsmart his plan, come up with a better plan to help both our people, fight him to near death, then bludgeon him over the head with that plan until he admits I'm right. Then, we are going to implement that better plan, save everyone, and travel the world to help everyone that Solas' idiotic plan has hurt so far.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He spent the entire game helping people. As I've repeatedly said, he gains influence with you every single time you help someone that isn't "his people". The only reason he carries on with his plan is because he believes there is no other option to save his people, and modern people are going to die anyway.

 

I certainly don't plan on trying to talk him down whilst he has the power to escape or harm anyone else, that's idiocy. When I say I'm going to redeem him, that doesn't mean I plan to stand there whilst he murders people and go "gee Solas, please don't hurt my people because of our feelings for each other, it makes me so saaaaaad~   ". I'm going to destroy his armies, outsmart his plan, come up with a better plan to help both our people, fight him to near death, then bludgeon him over the head with that plan until he admits I'm right. Then, we are going to implement that better plan, save everyone, and travel the world to help everyone that Solas' idiotic plan has hurt so far.

Interesting how you want to find a plan that saves everyone yet part of your plan to do that involves killing his armies. You can do one or the other, not both. 

[roselavellan]

Those that claim solas is being "evil" or not "thoughtful of the cost" of his plan to cast down the veil seem hypocritical to me. "How dare he try to rectify his mistake and help his people" as if that is not the rationale course of action for any living being. If the intelligent darkspawn were to grow into prominence tomorrow and enslave humanity, especially if you had a hand in letting it happen, tell me with a straight face what you wouldn't sacrifice anything to restore things back to the way things were. I do not blame them for their hate for Solas, it is expected of beings who desire simplicity, and cannot fight for survival without having to see a foe as something they can hate with every fiber of their being. Madman, liar, delusional ruthless determinator- Solas is branded that but that is everyone in truth. Not that they care, they go to any lengths to stop Solas' plan yet expect Solas to show restraint when they do not? Lot's of hypocrisy imo.

 

Fact is Solas is trying to rectify a mistake that destroyed his people and enslaved the spirits to the Veil. While the others thrived because of his mistake. To him, even if it costs the life of humans, his actions cost the downfall of his people and the spirits. He seeks to rectify that mistake. That makes him a threat, and so humanity will hate him for simplicity no matter how moral his rationale objectively is. If he dies, then he dies, not that he doesn't deserve it as he himself has said he has done things worthy of such retribution, but his desire to rectify his mistake or his lying I cannot say is "absolute evil" as his detractor's say.

 

I totally agree that people who judge Solas for his plans are being hypocritical. As the dialogue exchange in Trespasser went:

 

Inquisitor: You'd murder countless people?

Solas: Wouldn't you, to save your own?

 

Of course, we (the Inquisitor and current Thedosians) would condemn his plan, since we are not the people he chooses to save, but to call him evil is... just missing the point.

 

I would however disagree that he deserves to die. Bioware has made it obvious that Solas is a compassionate person who values wisdom and reason. He is exactly a person who can, should and must be redeemed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I totally agree that people who judge Solas for his plans are being hypocritical. As the dialogue exchange in Trespasser went:

 

Inquisitor: You'd murder countless people?

Solas: Wouldn't you, to save your own?

And my answer to Solas would be "No, I wouldn't.". So how am I being a hypocrite? 

[roselavellan]

I think the most infuriating thing about Solas right now is that the upcoming conflict with him seems completely unnecessary.  

 

For me, the most infuriating thing is that we have a few years to wait before we find out why Solas thinks his plan is so necessary. What has Bioware not shown us yet?

[Abyss108]

Interesting how you want to find a plan that saves everyone yet part of your plan to do that involves killing his armies. You can do one or the other, not both. 

 

 If I do it without murdering them, I will. That goes for Solas' armies, and it goes for Solas. If the game gives me the option the destroy Solas' armies by converting them to my side, I'll do that.

[roselavellan]

And my answer to Solas would be "No, I wouldn't.". So how am I a hypocrite? 

 

So... you, as in you the human player, would not sacrifice a race of beings you barely recognise as sentient, to save the human race? Ok. I'm pretty sure most would though.

[Boost32]

He spent the entire game helping people. As I've repeatedly said, he gains influence with you every single time you help someone that isn't "his people". The only reason he carries on with his plan is because he believes there is no other option to save his people, and modern people are going to die anyway.
 
I certainly don't plan on trying to talk him down whilst he has the power to escape or harm anyone else, that's idiocy. When I say I'm going to redeem him, that doesn't mean I plan to stand there whilst he murders people and go "gee Solas, please don't hurt my people because of our feelings for each other, it makes me so saaaaaad~   ". I'm going to destroy his armies, outsmart his plan, come up with a better plan to help both our people, fight him to near death, then bludgeon him over the head with that plan until he admits I'm right. Then, we are going to implement that better plan, save everyone, and travel the world to help everyone that Solas' idiotic plan has hurt so far.

He was not helping them because he thought was the right thing to do, he was helping them because it would led him to get his Foci back. He can approve all he wants, his action speaks louder, he will try to kill those same people. The reason he carrões is because he is a lunatic and he need to be stopped.

So its ok he kill several people until you can actually "redeem" him? The people he hurt so far deserves justice, and I plan to give it to them.

[Dai Grepher]

And my answer to Solas would be "No, I wouldn't.". So how am I being a hypocrite? 

 

Exactly. I think people mistake killing in self-defense as being murder. It's one thing to defend the lives of your people against attacking enemies. It's completely different to murder innocent people so that your people can live in a way you think is better.

 

And that's what it comes down to. It isn't actually to save his people, it's to give them a life he thinks is better and he thinks they will enjoy. Like killing people for their land. Same as it ever was.
 

[Abyss108]

He was not helping them because he thought was the right thing to do, he was helping them because it would led him to get his Foci back. He can approve all he wants, his action speaks louder, he will try to kill those same people. The reason he carrões is because he is a lunatic and he need to be stopped.

So its ok he kill several people until you can actually "redeem" him? The people he hurt so far deserves justice, and I plan to give it to them.

 

No, getting the Foci back explains why he joined the Inquisition. There are numerous places in the game where you can help people which has zero effect on that. You lose influence for taking cruel options, even when they get you the same amount of power for the Inquisition. 

 

I find "Justice" to be an idiotic concept if you just translate it to "an eye for an eye". I'm sure that would make anyone he hurt feel better (assuming they are not dead, which they probably are), but it doesn't actually help anyone when presented with another option, which we have been. I'm not going to kill him for the sake of making the people he hurt feel a bit happier, when I can redeem him so he can actual good for many more people.

[Aren]

Killing an agent for failing him is exactly what PCs get to do all the time.  A lot of the people I've seen yelling about Felassan are the same ones who want to murderknife everyone, and complain about their murderknife targets surviving.

 

 

Survive to the murder knife? Who did that? That's impossible without plot armor.

[Former_Fiend]

So... you, as in you the human player, would not sacrifice a race of beings you barely recognise as sentient, to save the human race? Ok. I'm pretty sure most would though.

 

If the human race in any recognizable form was thousands of years dead already? I'd accept that reality and move on with my life until I joined them.

 

Hell, Solas actually has some banter with Varric that's very on topic;

 

Solas: Once, in the Fade, I saw the memory of a man who lived alone on an island. Most of his tribe had fallen to beasts or disease. His wife had died in childbirth. He was the only one left. He could have struck out on his own to find a new land, new people. But he stayed. He spent every day catching fish in a little boat, every night drinking fermented fruit juice and watching the stars.

Varric: I can think of worse lives.

Solas: How can you be happy surrendering, knowing it will all end with you? How can you not fight?

 

and later;

 

 

Varric: In that story of yours—the fisherman watching the stars, dying alone—you thought he gave up right?

Solas: Yes.

Varric: But he went on living. He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone.

Varric: That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes—and it's gone forever.

Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets.

Solas: Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

It is so on topic that I'm almost inclined to think that Solas made up the story as a cipher for his own life. And yet he completely misses the point; he doesn't strike out on his own, find some new people and make a new life. He doesn't remain by himself, getting up every day in defiance of what the world has taken from him. 

 

He's resolved to take everything the world has taken from him back, destroying everything everyone else has to rebuild something that is dead and gone. He isn't Anders, he's Quentin on a far grander scale.

[Former_Fiend]

Survive to the murder knife? Who did that? That's impossible without plot armor.

 

Morrigan.

[Robert Cousland]

you *points* I like you

 

and your profile picture 

 

that grin is like "I like to watch the DA fandom burn" 

 

It's perfect lol

 

My dear, I like to watch everything burn.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Those that claim solas is being "evil" or not "thoughtful of the cost" of his plan to cast down the veil seem hypocritical to me. "How dare he try to rectify his mistake and help his people" as if that is not the rationale course of action for any living being. If the intelligent darkspawn were to grow into prominence tomorrow and enslave humanity, especially if you had a hand in letting it happen, tell me with a straight face what you wouldn't sacrifice anything to restore things back to the way things were. I do not blame them for their hate for Solas, it is expected of beings who desire simplicity, and cannot fight for survival without having to see a foe as something they can hate with every fiber of their being. Madman, liar, delusional ruthless determinator- Solas is branded that but that is everyone in truth. Not that they care, they go to any lengths to stop Solas' plan yet expect Solas to show restraint when they do not? Lot's of hypocrisy imo.

 

Fact is Solas is trying to rectify a mistake that destroyed his people and enslaved the spirits to the Veil. While the others thrived because of his mistake. To him, even if it costs the life of humans, his actions cost the downfall of his people and the spirits. He seeks to rectify that mistake. That makes him a threat, and so humanity will hate him for simplicity no matter how moral his rationale objectively is. If he dies, then he dies, not that he doesn't deserve it as he himself has said he has done things worthy of such retribution, but his desire to rectify his mistake or his lying I cannot say is "absolute evil" as his detractor's say.

 

I agree. Lets also remember he had a perfect chance to kill the Inquisitor and he does the exact opposite he saves the Inquisitor's life (yeah s/he loses an arm but they're still alive) and if the Inquisitor states that they try and redeem him, Solas even says "I would love for you to prove me wrong again."

 

Right now I see him as a very tragic character, I don't see him as a hero or as a villain. 

[Boost32]

No, getting the Foci back explains why he joined the Inquisition. There are numerous places in the game where you can help people which has zero effect on that. You lose influence for taking cruel options, even when they get you the same amount of power for the Inquisition. 
 
I find "Justice" to be an idiotic concept if you just translate it to "an eye for an eye". I'm sure that would make anyone he hurt feel better (assuming they are not dead, which they probably are), but it doesn't actually help anyone when presented with another option, which we have been. I'm not going to kill him for the sake of making the people he hurt feel a bit happier, when I can redeem him so he can actual good for many more people.

And its mean nothing. Because he is trying to kill those same persons.

And I find hypothetical good an idiot concept. He is not trying to do any good and he has to pay for his crime, because thats what he is, a insane criminal on the loose. He already had a second chance, he doesnt deserve a third or fourth chance.

[Abyss108]

- to rebuild something that is dead and gone -

 

 

Gotta admit, I don't think his people are dead. I think they are trapped the same way as the Evanuris, and suffering. "Saving" dead people doesn't seem like the right term to use.

[Former_Fiend]

Gotta admit, I don't think his people are dead. I think they are trapped the same way as the Evanuris, and suffering. "Saving" dead people doesn't seem like the right term to use.

 

I think that everything he's trying to save very much is gone. I don't think there's a massive horde of immortal elves trapped on the other side of the veil waiting to be freed. 

 

I think he's just like Corypheus; fighting to restore something that doesn't exist anymore, at the cost of everything that does.

[Abyss108]

And its mean nothing. Because he is trying to kill those same persons.

And I find hypothetical good an idiot concept. He is not trying to do any good and he has to pay for his crime, because thats what he is, a insane criminal on the loose. He already had a second chance, he doesnt deserve a third or fourth chance.

 

Every future situation is hypothetical. Yet we generally base our current actions on what that hypothetical future will be. I base mine on the 130 hours of him giving me approval for helping people he had no reason to want to help, as opposed to the one massive mistake he wants you to stop him from making.

 

I couldn't care less about what he "deserves" in this situation. I don't think a child-murderer deserves to get a second chance, I still redeemed Blackwall. Because it made the world a better place for people who weren't Blackwall who did deserve help. Killing him would just have made me happy. 

[Abyss108]

I think that everything he's trying to save very much is gone. I don't think there's a massive horde of immortal elves trapped on the other side of the veil waiting to be freed. 

 

I think he's just like Corypheus; fighting to restore something that doesn't exist anymore, at the cost of everything that does.

 

We'll see in the next game, but I don't think there's any chance Solas' people are completely gone. They are still alive. Not completely convinced they are what we would think of as "immortal elves" either but that's a different topic. 

[Boost32]

Every future situation is hypothetical. Yet we generally base our current actions on what that hypothetical future will be. I base mine on the 130 hours of him giving me approval for helping people he had no reason to want to help, as opposed to the one massive mistake he wants you to stop him from making.
 
I couldn't care less about what he "deserves" in this situation. I don't think a child-murderer deserves to get a second chance, I still redeemed Blackwall. Because it made the world a better place for people who weren't Blackwall who did deserve help. Killing him would just have made me happy.

Tis not a "mistake", its an absurd plan that if he succed will destroy everyone in Thedas who is not an Ancient Elf. And "he wants you to stop him" is BS, if he wanted he could just stop himself.

First what Blackwall did does not compare for what Solas did, several children were killed by the Breach, and second, Blackwall actually did something to be redeemed, he fought to save people, he joined the Inquisition with good will and to save people, not with ulterior motives that could end the world.

[Former_Fiend]

We'll see in the next game, but I don't think there's any chance Solas' people are completely gone. They are still alive. Not completely convinced they are what we would think of as "immortal elves" either but that's a different topic. 

 

Honestly doesn't matter to me either way. I'm going to stop him, permanently, regardless.