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C'mon even in Inquisition we can't get a happy romance ending for H**** in theDLC? Really?!?


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#51
berelinde

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I feel like this might be the reason Hawke's LI isn't mentioned in the Trespasser epilogue, actually. They could have thrown in a sentance about how Merrill and Hawke went back to Kirkwall or Isabela and Hawke took to the high seas together or Fenris and Hawke went hunting slavers or Sebastian and Hawke settled down in Starkhaven, but a happy ending with Anders seems like it would take more than a couple of lines to achieve.

 

I can do it in one sentence:

 

"When Hawke was not in Kirkwall helping Varric, s/he and Anders returned to what they loved best: helping mages adjust to lives of freedom."

 

It's ridiculously easy, if you don't let yourself get tripped up on the hate.



#52
Andraste_Reborn

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I can do it in one sentence:

 

"When Hawke was not in Kirkwall helping Varric, s/he and Anders returned to what they loved best: helping mages adjust to lives of freedom."

 

I dunno, that doesn't work very well for my Andersmancing Hawke. (It was the rivalmance. That Hawke was not a big fan of mage freedom.)

 

I think the real issue is that we don't know what Anders is doing during Inquisition, whereas the various post-DA2 activities of the other LIs are described. He left the organized rebel mages, and Varric neither knows nor cares where he is.

 

It's ridiculously easy, if you don't let yourself get tripped up on the hate.

 

I don't hate Anders.



#53
AnimalBoy

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Hawk is garbage and honestly shouldnt have been present in DAI at all. Bioware simply didnt care about her and DA2 so good on them. Stop whining.

 

How dare you!



#54
berelinde

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I dunno, that doesn't work very well for my Andersmancing Hawke. (It was the rivalmance. That Hawke was not a big fan of mage freedom.)

 

I think the real issue is that we don't know what Anders is doing during Inquisition, whereas the various post-DA2 activities of the other LIs are described. He left the organized rebel mages, and Varric neither knows nor cares where he is.

 

 

 

 

I don't hate Anders.

It's strongly implied in DA2 that rival!Anders kills himself, so I'm not sure it's really necessary to say what he's doing. In the Gallows Courtyard, he warns you that he isn't going to survive it, and while friend-manced Anders gets the "Everyone left Hawke's side... except for Anders" in the epilogue, rival-manced Anders doesn't. 

 

Sorry about the accusation. You aren't new to the forums, though, so I'm sure you'll understand the reaction. Even after all this time, Anders hate is still rampant on the forums. People like the characters they like and hate the characters they hate and neither group owes anyone an explanation for it, but when every attempt to say something positive about a character is greeted by dumpster loads of negativity, it gets old fast.


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#55
Mikka-chan

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I think, though, that's only a rivalmanced Anders who helps the Templars.  From his comments (and Varric's lack of mentioning him), I definitely was left with the feeling that after being forced to help the Templars, he was going to commit suicide: he was just so broken (double that if Hawke ends up getting Bethany killed).  A rivalmanced Anders who helps the Mage's is incredibly depressed and miserable, but I believe he still gets the 'except for Anders' line and he seems willing to face what he's done and may be able to be convinced to live to make up for it.

 

Having said that, though, Hawke does mention Anders being around in DAIII even if you went the Templar route.  Now, what Anders did as soon as Hawke had left them- well.  That could be depressing.

 

Needing three different variables to keep track of for Anders, though, would probably be a bit much.  And no one would want to read an epilogue of 'And then Hawke went back home and found her/his boyfriend completely possessed/having killed himself while they were out.  So, uh, they helped Varric wee!'

 

Yeah.  That just would suck.  I can come up with ways that rivalmanced!Anders and Hawke are happyish (if not HAPPYYYY) together, but it would probably take more then a sentence to describe it.



#56
berelinde

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The subject of Anders is simply too divisive for epilogues.  :lol:

 

Part of the issue was that it should not have been possible to romance rivaled Anders in DA2. The way the rivalry mechanics were set up for him, Hawke had a choice of being supportive of both him and the mages or condemning both. The friendship/rivalry system was not sophisticated enough to handle the nuances of a Hawke who cared about Anders as a person but who wanted to reform or preserve the Circles. Hawke could not support mage rights without endorsing Anders's decision to merge with Justice. Hawke was simply not given dialogue options to say "I care about you, but I disagree." So, when it came to the endgame, Hawkes who rivaled Anders but who sided against Meredith were treated as if they supported mages all along. Precedent is set.

 

The Dragon Age Keep included choices to indicate that Hawke did not support Anders's plans, but the implementation in DAI was imperfect. Rival-romanced Hawke should probably have acknowledged that Anders was dead, but they didn't write it that way. Maybe the writers decided that players who worked that hard to keep Anders alive up to that point shouldn't lose him to suicide... even though rival Anders was completely broken emotionally and spiritually. We may never know.

 

It would have been easy to write a happy ending for friendship-romanced Anders and Hawke, but rivalled, not so much. All of the epilogue slides have variables, and the game doesn't care if it has to evaluate one of them or five (as long as it isn't 500, I suppose), so it wouldn't have made that much of a difference. It wasn't as if the slides were narrated.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying that Anders (or any of the other DA2 LIs!) should even have epilogue slides. Hawke appears because he or she made a personal appearance in the game and the decision to save or sacrifice him or her was a big one. After staring at that screen for fifteen minutes - no lie! - and still not being able to decide what to do, I bloody well deserve an epilogue slide for Hawke! But Hawke's LI didn't make a personal appearance. I'm perfectly fine with leaving that to headcanon.


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#57
AlleluiaElizabeth

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I honestly never even saw a problem with the lack of mention of Hawke's love interests in the epilogue. I mean, if they're alive and s/he's alive, you can basically headcanon w/e and it fits. Its not like the epilogues said that Hawke didn't meet back up with their LI and live happily ever after.


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#58
KaiserShep

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I honestly never even saw a problem with the lack of mention of Hawke's love interests in the epilogue. I mean, if they're alive and s/he's alive, you can basically headcanon w/e and it fits. Its not like the epilogues said that Hawke didn't meet back up with their LI and live happily ever after.


I imagine some might have been annoyed if the epilogue mentioned Hawke sailing away with Izzy, cause they'd think that letting Castillon go was canon.
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#59
Nonoru

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Do you get an Alistair/Loghain/Stroud epilogue? 



#60
GoldenGail3

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I don't hate Anders.


I do though. I hate Anders becuase he's not Awakening Anders no longer! And I liked DAA Anders until they turned him into an terrorist abomantion...
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#61
Nonoru

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Check their banter in Awakening, there's a lot of foreshadowing there. 



#62
berelinde

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I do though. I hate Anders becuase he's not Awakening Anders no longer! And I liked DAA Anders until they turned him into an terrorist abomantion...

Do you like it when other forumites bash your favorites? Does the endless character bashing make the forums seem safer and more welcoming? Or is it just spraying poison when you don't have to?


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#63
Aren

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Patrick Weekes said on Twitter that Hawke had a happy ending with all possible romance options. It's just not mentioned in Trespasser's epilogue slides.

Patrick Weekes hate Lavellan



#64
ComedicSociopathy

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Do you like it when other forumites bash your favorites? Does the endless character bashing make the forums seem safer and more welcoming? Or is it just spraying poison when you don't have to?

 

Yeah, that's true, but committing massive murder and terrorism designed to get even more people killed is sort of hard to forgive you know. I suppose a Rivalry Anders is alright if he's just a poor fool that got temporarily possessed by an insane spirit.

 

Friendship Anders is monstrous jerkface arsehole though. :P  



#65
Cantina

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Patick Weekes hate Lavellan

 

Er? What? This is news to me.


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#66
KaiserShep

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I do though. I hate Anders becuase he's not Awakening Anders no longer! And I liked DAA Anders until they turned him into an terrorist abomantion...

 

I feel like I'm in the minority with finding Awakening Anders to be a bit annoying. He's like…poor man's Daveth. Oh Daveth, you were too good for this world. But then, the only Awakening companions that I actually like are Sigrun and Nathaniel. I dunno why, but it just always seems to be the rogues that end up being my favorite. 



#67
GoldenGail3

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Do you like it when other forumites bash your favorites? Does the endless character bashing make the forums seem safer and more welcoming? Or is it just spraying poison when you don't have to?


Well your right, Anders using me to blow up a chantry doesn't help his cause. It makes me feel like "Gosh darn it, I got used by friendship Anders'. And I like DAA Anders, btw. He was himself (not possessed by Justice, nor about to go blow up chantries any time soon.) I would feel sympathy towards him if he somehow got himself permantely separtated from Justice. I really would, I would like him once more.

#68
themikefest

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I haven't played trespasser yet. Not sure when. I just head canon that femHawke gave the bird to Kirkwall and went with Isabela on her boat to sail the seven seas. Every port they reach they cause all kinds of trouble for fun.



#69
GoldenGail3

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I feel like I'm in the minority with finding Awakening Anders to be a bit annoying. He's like…poor man's Daveth. Oh Daveth, you were too good for this world. But then, the only Awakening companions that I actually like are Sigrun and Nathaniel. I dunno why, but it just always seems to be the rogues that end up being my favorite.


I would feel sympathy towards a non executed Anders if he got somehow unpossessed by Justice. Just he's a different person with Jusitice in him, so I actually would be like 100% more forgiving towards him if he got unpossessed. I would acept his apology becuase it doesn't have any spirt in it (to lie to my face about his plans for a chantry). I have something against Justice (he's the main reason I dislike DA2 Anders actually.)

#70
Aren

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My problem is more a matter of theme and tone. I like Weekes' characters as a rule, but I like the story and the world to have a darker tone, similar to DAO  

DAO darker?
Nah,with half of the cast always intent to make jokes and humor  on everything...and the blight who was smore into the Warden's head rather than on the field.
(Oh dear archdemon how many times you bothered me in my sleep)


#71
Iakus

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Check their banter in Awakening, there's a lot of foreshadowing there. 

That would be a neat trick, given the original idea was to have Justice merge with Velanna



#72
Aren

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Er? What? This is news to me.

Because he didn't give to her Solas



#73
FemShem

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Because he didn't give to her Solas

Okay, now I'm confused.  The Solas romance was added in, as I understand it.  It wasn't preplanned as the other romances were.  The Lavallen romance just worked, and they added it in...I half-assed it, then decided to go for Sera.  I need to go back and play it.  The "fade-tongue" line puled me out of my suspension of disbelief a bit.

Since the female elf/Solas romance was added, I would think that (since it would be more work for the writers, in reality it's an assload more work to thread in a whole bunch of more stuff, IMHO) doing the Lavallen romance would indicated an interest in the story-line of that particular character...sans the fact that your entire clan dies on the war table and noone mentions it until Sera in the Trespasser DLC, but at least the writers addressed it later.

Okay, this is a bit off top from OP, but since we drifted...

Hawke did have the nice option of the rivalry or friend romance (boy did I enjoy the hell out of that) I have no idea why there is no FemHawke/Isa Rivalry romance on youtube that I can find...keep meaning to post mine...put that above matching my sock drawer (though I'm sure the wife would prefer I match the sock drawer).  I had forgotten about the switch up in the Anders romance.  Probably b/c some of my Hawkes let him live, others didn't. (As always depended on the Hawke).

Honestly, the first time I played through DA2, I don't know what I was doing, but my Hawke never went to the Chantry and I never really chatted with the Revered mother, so I was rather non-plussed when she died.  Next playthorugh I chatted her up quite a bit...so Hawke responded differently.

So we know the story on Gaider's POV.  Why does Weekes say happily ever after, but it was mentioned in epilogue?  Seriously, when your writing in team environments (I'm guessing from entertainment industry), the omission would have been deliberate decision made at a table with more than one person there.  Varric is there.  Hawke is there.  I do appreciate the head cannon of logic, and I am even willing to endorse it (mostly because there's a great deal of logic to it)...

the omission just seems deliberate and strange.  Merrill is in the Dales, so up Hawke's return to Kirkwall they reunite. Isabela rejoins Hawke at the estate; yes, it all makes sense.  I'm not arguing; however, the same writers could have written what I just did, and they didn't.  It's deliberate.  BioWare went to the trouble of letting you customize your Hawke's appearance for the cameo.

And to whoever asked: as far as I know, no there is no follow up at the end of the DLC for Alister, Logain, or Stroud.  I've played the hell out of that thing, and I usually double check with Fluffy Ninja if I'm going to write something so I don't miss cannon.  I saw nothing.  I'm not infallible, nor do I have a PhD in BioWare, but I didn't see anything.

Though there is quite a bit of dialogue given to Alister's sacrifice if you chose him to stay behind in the Fade from both Varric and Leliana in body of Inquisition.  It is interesting that Varric kind of complains to you about it...I'm sitting there thinking...you'd prefer I picked Hawke? when really I'm just counting off another unlock.  

Killing my fav Hawke or Alister, that was the worst choice I ever set up in the Keep's World state.  Ugh.

Least it was real, and on the first play though, quite unintentional.  That was some RPG hard times.  Not KOTOR Revan heavy, but for reals, walk away from the controller for a moment and go, "Really?"

I gotta thank BioWare for making that one hurt.  I thought I was so smart getting an Alister Warden...yeah.  Ouch.



#74
berelinde

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Yeah, that's true, but committing massive murder and terrorism designed to get even more people killed is sort of hard to forgive you know. I suppose a Rivalry Anders is alright if he's just a poor fool that got temporarily possessed by an insane spirit.

 

Friendship Anders is monstrous jerkface arsehole though. :P  

If you want to talk about his actions in reference to Thedosian themes, fine, but throwing words like terrorism around is dismissive of and disrespectful toward people who have lost loved ones to real world atrocities. They've suffered enough without comparing their very real pain and fear to some video game plot device. Moderators have shut down threads over it in the past.

 

It might be productive to talk about character actions and motivations objectively as literary devices relevant to the setting... but that's the thing. People don't do that, especially not in the context of the world they live in. They rely on emotionally charged buzzwords. There's no discussion, no opportunity to consider the larger issue or even the extended consequences of the action.

 

It's possible to hate a character and everything they stand for, just as it is possible to express negativity without attacking those whose opinion differs. It's possible to do so without poisoning the forums, too.

 

An alternative to your interpretation of friendship Anders might be "driven revolutionary with a bad publicity agent." The difference is less than some people think.

 

I would feel sympathy towards a non executed Anders if he got somehow unpossessed by Justice. Just he's a different person with Jusitice in him, so I actually would be like 100% more forgiving towards him if he got unpossessed. I would acept his apology becuase it doesn't have any spirt in it (to lie to my face about his plans for a chantry). I have something against Justice (he's the main reason I dislike DA2 Anders actually.)

 

How do you feel about Wynne? About that girl in "Exiled" in JoH? They're interesting characters because they show how different spirits react to the world, and also how the culture of the person possessed affects the outcome. 

 

I loved Justice-become-Anders because it illustrates why Justice, as a concept, is so dangerous. Justice must act. It cannot be idle. That's part of the problem Anders faced, actually. He exhausted every means of peaceful resolution he possibly could, but that delay proved damaging to Justice, who is always swift and implacable. Wynne lucked out, in a way. Faith is patient. Faith needs no displays or any action at all, and thrives in adversity. It's a highly durable spirit. Justice, not so much.

 

I'm not sure they really thought through how possession worked before they introduced Janders. We've heard a variety of reports. It's permanent. The spirit may leave voluntarily. The host may ask the spirit to leave. The spirit may transition to another. At this point, we're still finding out what is and is not the truth, if there even is one. Could Cole/Compassion give Justice/Anders some intensive spirit therapy? How damaging would it be if a spirit left voluntarily? Would it leave the host vulnerable? Lots of unanswered questions dead!Anders can't solve.

 

Killing my fav Hawke or Alister, that was the worst choice I ever set up in the Keep's World state.  Ugh.

Ain't that the truth! Maker, I stared at the screen for a solid fifteen minutes before deciding that the only solution was to shut down the computer until I calmed down and then delete that character entirely.


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#75
GoldenGail3

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If you want to talk about his actions in reference to Thedosian themes, fine, but throwing words like terrorism around is dismissive of and disrespectful toward people who have lost loved ones to real world atrocities. They've suffered enough without comparing their very real pain and fear to some video game plot device. Moderators have shut down threads over it in the past.
 
It might be productive to talk about character actions and motivations objectively as literary devices relevant to the setting... but that's the thing. People don't do that, especially not in the context of the world they live in. They rely on emotionally charged buzzwords. There's no discussion, no opportunity to consider the larger issue or even the extended consequences of the action.
 
It's possible to hate a character and everything they stand for, just as it is possible to express negativity without attacking those whose opinion differs. It's possible to do so without poisoning the forums, too.
 
An alternative to your interpretation of friendship Anders might be "driven revolutionary with a bad publicity agent." The difference is less than some people think.
 

 
How do you feel about Wynne? About that girl in "Exiled" in JoH? They're interesting characters because they show how different spirits react to the world, and also how the culture of the person possessed affects the outcome. 
 
I loved Justice-become-Anders because it illustrates why Justice, as a concept, is so dangerous. Justice must act. It cannot be idle. That's part of the problem Anders faced, actually. He exhausted every means of peaceful resolution he possibly could, but that delay proved damaging to Justice, who is always swift and implacable. Wynne lucked out, in a way. Faith is patient. Faith needs no displays or any action at all, and thrives in adversity. It's a highly durable spirit. Justice, not so much.
 
I'm not sure they really thought through how possession worked before they introduced Janders. We've heard a variety of reports. It's permanent. The spirit may leave voluntarily. The host may ask the spirit to leave. The spirit may transition to another. At this point, we're still finding out what is and is not the truth, if there even is one. Could Cole/Compassion give Justice/Anders some intensive spirit therapy? How damaging would it be if a spirit left voluntarily? Would it leave the host vulnerable? Lots of unanswered questions dead!Anders can't solve.
 

Ain't that the truth! Maker, I stared at the screen for a solid fifteen minutes before deciding that the only solution was to shut down the computer until I calmed down and then delete that character entirely.


You like Anders becuase he's not only himself, he likes to kill people? And caused a war, a needless stupid war. The bloody war between mages and Templars are his fault. I mean, at least Cole killed people out of compassion and even he was a demon at first. I love Cole, he's so awesome (I never banished him in any of my playthroughs, I love him that much). Cole isn't Anders though, he didn't possess anyone to become a physical construct. Oh come on, Justice was posseing a bloody corpses because he was flung into this world he didn't understand. Wynne was healed by a spirt of Hope, so I suppose she's a very hopeful person. She also didn't kill anyone with her abomantion powers (she is a abomantion, because she's possessed by a spirt too, but she unlike Anders DID NOT use her powers to blow a chantry. She never became someone else, she stayed her even though she was possessed by a spirt. I do believe Wynne became like Cole in a sort of a sense). I liked Wynne. I hated Justice for making Anders a monster. A bloody monster. A monster that needed to be stopped. I blame Justice for DA2 Anders actions, it's all that bloody spirts fault. And I liked Justice in DAA... I just hated him to the core for thinking it was alright to Manipulative me (as a lover it was a such a big betrayal to me... UGH ANDERS! WHY!)