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[Ieldra]

In this thread, I'd to explore the plausbility of the hypothesis that the Old Gods are the remnants of the Evanuris, and what that would mean for other key events in Thedas' history.

 

Observations:

 

(1) There are several very close links from the elven gods to dragons. First, there's Mythal/Flemeth, who can shapeshift into a dragon, and who is depicted as a human/dragon hybrid in her temple. Furthermore, one of the ancient elven texts in the Arbor Wilds indicates that this shapeshifting was known to Elvhenan, and that the dragon form was reserved for the gods: "He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine".

 

(2) The timeline makes first mention of the Old Gods around -1600 TE, the same time the Golden City was first mentioned. The City, of course, can't have existed as this mythical place before the creation of the Veil, but there is no reason why the same should apply to the Old Gods, unless their appearance is also linked to the creation of the Veil. 

 

(3) We can place the creation of the Veil between -1900 TE at the earliest and around -1650 TE at the latest. It has to be later than -1900 TE because the sources indicate that the elves were still immortal when they encountered humans for the first time, and it can't have been later than -1650 TE because it's then the elves noticed the quickening for the first time (WoTI). It *can* be an accident that the Old Gods appeared on the scene so soon after the creation of the Veil, but given the evidence of (1), I think we have a reason to make a connection.

 

(4) At the end of Trespasser, we can ask Solas whether sundering the Veil won't bring the Evanuris back, and his answer "I have plans" suggests that there's indeed a danger of that. Which means, wherever the Evanuris were banished, the place will become accessible - and escapable - if the Veil is sundered. 

 

(5) Solas reacts with uncommon anger to the Warden's plan to kill the remaining Old Gods. Meanwhile, from what we know, there is no reason to assume that killing an uncorrupted Old God would have any more adverse side effects than killing an Archdemon. It appears, then, that Solas knows something of the Old Gods that we don't, and the most plausible reason for that is that they're connected with something he did.

 

(6)  There were seven Old Gods. There were nine elven gods, but Fen'Harel and Mythal weren't among the banished ones, that leaves seven.

 

The Hypothesis and its implications:

 

The basic statement of the hypothesis is: "The Old Gods are what's left of the Evanuris".  Well, we know that Solas fought the Evanuris and prevented them from affecting the world in some way, so the assumption that the tale of the Old Gods' imprisonment and the banishment of the elven gods are the same thing almost suggests itself. The Chantry tale doesn't give us a timeline of the Old Gods' imprisonment, but the evidence suggests that would've taken place a signficant period of time before the first Blight. Various sources (Corypheus, Codex entries in Here Lies the Abyss) say that Dumat had contact with her worshippers right until the First Blight, which means that the imprisoned Old Gods weren't prevented from communicating. However, they couldn't have been in the Golden City, for we know that the Archdemons-to-be slept underground (or sort-of-slept, given that they could still communicate).

 

So what about the tale that the Old Gods whispered to humans from the Golden City? The funny thing is, there is no way anyone could've ever known whether the Old Gods actually resided in the City before the Seven visited the place. The only source we have about that is priests communicating with their gods, and they (the gods) can't be considered a reliable source. Given how the imprisoned Old Gods could communicate, and how Corypheus was perplexed when he couldn't hear Dumat's voice, it's plausible to assume that there was some truth to priests' accounts of communication with them, but there is no way the priests could know from where their gods contacted them.

 

So here's the first implication:

 

(I) Solas trapped The Evanuris in their dragon form and imprisoned them under ground, separated from most of their power so that they couldn't escape. They could still communicate, though, and as the Old Gods, they contacted humans and started to orchestrate conditions that would ultimately end with their escape. They were never in the Golden City.

 

This neatly explains everything that happened, up to the Seven's visit of the Golden City.

 

The Golden City and the Blight:

 

OK, so the Old Gods were never in the Golden City, but it must contain something they want, since they were so interested in humans going there. The important question here is this: what happened when the Seven entered the City, that it made it possible for the Old Gods to get free as Archdemons? Well, the obvious answer is "The darkspawn happened". If the first darkspawn were created as a fallout of the Seven's expedition, then they could've plausibly been the first available tool for freeing the Old Gods. The Old Gods called to them, they came and corrupted and freed the Old God.

 

That results in more questions though: what exactly did the darkspawn have that the corruption could awaken an Old God? Well, they have the Blight. And that, in the end, connects the Blight to the Evanuris and ties in to the common hypothesis that the Golden City is the Fade-side aspect of old Arlathan, while the solid-world-side aspect was the city Tevinter attacked and sacked in 700 TE. 

 

Next question: What exactly *is* the Blight, that it can empower the sleeping Old Gods that way. Here, I'm going out on a limb and speculate:

 

(II) When the Veil was created, everyone and everything with an intrinsic link to both aspects of reality was sundered into two parts. That's how the elves lost their immortality and how remants of the sundered places came to exist on both sides of the Veil. The Evanuris, too, were sundered, that's why Solas could imprison them and that's why he ultimately created the Veil, and their Fade-side aspect was left in the place that became the Golden City and either became touched by the Blight or became the Blight itself. In any case, it was carried out of the City by the Seven when they left and came into the world again, and thus could re-enable the Old Gods. 

 

It follows, then, that if the Veil is dismantled, it will be possible for the Evanuris to become whole again, possibly at the price of catching the Blight like Corypheus. So why was Solas angry about the Wardens' plans? He should've been glad that the last remaining Old Gods would be killed, right? Well, except if they wouldn't be truly killed, but instead rendered to a state comparable to Mythal's before she joined with Flemeth - a being of little power, but free to roam the world. Free, after the Veil is dismantled, to go back to old Arlathan and become whole again. Dumat was killed but his altar in DA2: Legacy was still active, so the possibility that something of Dumat still exists can't be discounted. 

 

I think this hypothesis neatly answers a number of questions about key events in Thedas' history. Whether this is what really happened, we'll possibly get to know in the next DA game. The most nagging unsolved question is "What exactly is the Blight".

 

I'm open to suggestions, extensions, refutation attempts and suchlike. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Treacherous J Slither]

The Blight must have something to do with how they gain freedom from their imprisonment or the result of it.

[Ranadiel Marius]

This is (was?) a fairly popular theory, but it stops fitting due to info we learn in Tresspasser. Specifically the fact that the Evanuris are the Mythal's murderers (or at least are believed to be so). It is established that Flemythal wants to save the souls of the Old Gods (and somewhat implied that Kieran's wanted to go with her). It is also established that Mythal is still boiling with anger over her murder. Further Solas is shown as being extremely pissed at the Grey Wardens' plan to kill the Old Gods and he is also shown to despise the Evanuris.

In short Mythal and Solas both seem to know who or what the Old Gods are, but bear them no ill will which means the Old Gods are not directly tied to the sealed Evanuris.

[Ieldra]

This is (was?) a fairly popular theory, but it stops fitting due to info we learn in Tresspasser. Specifically the fact that the Evanuris are the Mythal's murderers (or at least are believed to be so). It is established that Flemythal wants to save the souls of the Old Gods (and somewhat implied that Kieran's wanted to go with her). It is also established that Mythal is still boiling with anger over her murder. Further Solas is shown as being extremely pissed at the Grey Wardens' plan to kill the Old Gods and he is also shown to despise the Evanuris.

In short Mythal and Solas both seem to know who or what the Old Gods are, but bear them no ill will which means the Old Gods are not directly tied to the sealed Evanuris.

I've provided an explanation for Solas' anger that fits with my hypothesis and which I find very plausible, but I admit this is a significant counterargument.

 

On the other hand, the Evanuris' association with dragons is very strong, and I can't imagine that this is an accident. Also, it is implied that bringing down the Veil might bring the Evanuris back, so they're somewhere around and not in some ultra-distant dimension like the Forgotten Ones. At this point, I'm more inclined to stick to my hypothesis and assume that there's something we dont know that made Flemythal act the way she did. Flemeth wanted Urthemiel's god-soul, but for what? I don't see any necessary goodwill on her part.  

 

If the Old Gods are not the Evanuris, then we have two indepedent sets of gods who either were or could take the shape of dragons. That would be very odd, unless there's a different sort of connection nobody has thought of so far.  

[TK514]

I have an off the cuff theory that the Old Gods are to the Evanuris what the Blight Dragon was to Corypheus, or the pendant was to Flemythal.  Or the Ring was to Sauron, for an out of setting example.  They were a receptacle for part of their power and possibly a backup plan so that no one could do to them what they did to Mythal.

 

By separating them from their dragons, via the Veil, Solas weakened them considerably.  He's pissed at the Grey Wardens because they're destroying what amounts to giant magic batteries they he feels could be better used to advance his goals, once he can get to them.  And since he doesn't view anyone but ancient elves as people, he's probably ok with Archdemons what run amok for centuries, murdering millions.

 

Haven't really thought it out very far, though.

[Aeratus]

(I) Solas trapped The Evanuris in their dragon form and imprisoned them under ground, separated from most of their power so that they couldn't escape. They could still communicate, though, and as the Old Gods, they contacted humans and started to orchestrate conditions that would ultimately end with their escape. They were never in the Golden City.

However, Solas trapped the Evanuris in the heavens and he trapped the Forgotten Ones in the abyss. It also seems clear that the Evanuris and the Forgotten ones were different clans.

 

From the Descent DLC, we also know that the abyss is the underground (since the wartable labels the underground as the "uncharted abyss"), which is also the location where the old gods are imprisoned. Furthermore, one of the prisons of the old gods was located beneath Heidrun Thaig, which corresponds to the abyss in the descent DLC.

 

In summary, the prison locations of the old gods corresponds to the Forgotten ones, and not to the Evanuris. So the Old gods are not the Evanuris, but more likely the Forgotten Ones.

[Andromelek]

For point five: Actually the Evanuirs were jerks on Titans, there is no reason to believe they weren't that bad towards Dragons, if I recall correctly, one of the legends on the temple said that Andruil ordered to destroy many beasts except Dragons because she liked to hunt them, sealing them away could be a good way to keep them alive without allowing them to have a payback, or perhaps they feared them like the Titans and decided to seal them away.

Also, while Witches have a less radical behaviour than Solas, they were very concerned aiding Dragons: the Dark Ritual was intended to be Urthemiel's salvation and Yavana protects the remaining Great Dragons; speaking of that, seemingly the Old Gods are Great Dragons, the hunters drove High Dragons near to extinction, but the Silent Grove was built before of that, so, those hunters couldn't be the reason of the Great Dragons endangered, we also know about eight Old Gods then there are three Archdemons confirmed as dead (We don't know about Dumat and Urthemiel can be possibly saved) one unidentified (if they are Great Dragons, the one who Calenhad killed) , and two alive, we know that the Legion of the Dead found one of the prisons but already empty, we also know that the next Archdemon should be Razikale (who is the only female on the group, and the Great Dragon who is awake is called "The Queen of Dragons" if Sten said the Qunari believe OG are for Dragons what Kings are for humans, then...) as for Lusacan, there is mention of only another Great Dragon sleeping on the Grove.

EDIT: On the Blight matter, on Trespasser we learned that Mythal killed a Titan, then the other evanuirs tried to exploit its remains but something bad happened, I know that Red Lyrium acts different from the common taint, but still they say they are related.

[Iakus]

It's an interesting idea.  I'm sure there is a link somehow between the two pantheons.  But I have a few questions:

 

Are you suggesting that the archdemons the darkspawn find and corrupt are in fact the Evanuris tainted by the Blight?  If so, how does the taint reunite body and mind?

 

Another question, if the Evanuris really are just powerful elf mages, then could that mean there might be other ancient elves that were inadvertently trapped in a similar prison when the Veil went up?  Wrong place, wrong time?

 

Also, how do you reconcile the existence of the Blight in Thedas before the Seven entered the Golden City?  I'm referring to the red lyrium idol in the primeval thaig.  Wouldn't it have been easier for Dumat to send the magisters into the Deep Roads rather than storming the Golden City, if that was their goal?

[Ranadiel Marius]

I've provided an explanation for Solas' anger that fits with my hypothesis and which I find very plausible, but I admit this is a significant counterargument.

I must have missed that explanation. Got one for Mythal's desire to save the Old Gods despite being very wrathful towards her betrayer(S)?

On the other hand, the Evanuris' association with dragons is very strong, and I can't imagine that this is an accident.

As best as I recall, the only association between dragons and the Evanuris is that Mythal's iconography is usually a dragon. I do not believe that we have seen any strong connections between the other Evanuris and dragons. The other Evanuris seem to have different animals for their iconography such as halla, owls, and wolves.

If the Old Gods are not the Evanuris, then we have two indepedent sets of gods who either were or could take the shape of dragons. That would be very odd, unless there's a different sort of connection nobody has thought of so far.

Wherever their God souls come from, I think it is more likely that they are dragons with whisps of a powerful being's soul embedded like Hakkon or the red lyrium dragon rather than the physical body of a god (Evanuris or otherwise).

[Ieldra]

It's an interesting idea.  I'm sure there is a link somehow between the two pantheons.  But I have a few questions:
 
Are you suggesting that the archdemons the darkspawn find and corrupt are in fact the Evanuris tainted by the Blight?  If so, how does the taint reunite body and mind?

Basically yes. They obviously become active again through the corruption, I suppose this may have something to do with the Blight's ability to make telepathic connections between Blighted creatures, making a link between the Old God and its sundered part resting in the City. I don't know what part of them had been separated, it's definitely not as simple as "body and mind", but while they gain *something*, they can't be whole at that point, or they would've been more powerful and intelligent. 
 

Another question, if the Evanuris really are just powerful elf mages, then could that mean there might be other ancient elves that were inadvertently trapped in a similar prison when the Veil went up?  Wrong place, wrong time?

As I see it, the Veil sundered all elves, but didn't imprison anything on its own. My hypothesis is that Solas could imprison them through his magic because they were weakened from losing a part of themselves. I'm not sure how Solas escaped the same effect, though. Maybe he didn't and only had the advantage of being prepared.
 

Also, how do you reconcile the existence of the Blight in Thedas before the Seven entered the Golden City?  I'm referring to the red lyrium idol in the primeval thaig.  Wouldn't it have been easier for Dumat to send the magisters into the Deep Roads rather than storming the Golden City, if that was their goal?

In my hypothesis, it's not the Blight they were after, but the sundered parts of themselves. If those parts *were* the Blight instead of simply being infected, then the question is rather how the red lyrium idol got there, and if the Blight is something separate, then its nature is still unknown and anyway it wouldn't have been the target. In any case, it's quite possible nobody knew about the idol.

[Ariella]

Solas is very specific about locking the Elven gods in the Fade. I can't seem him leaving even a remnant behind to cause problems. Look at everything Mythal got up to as only a fragment.

The other problem is there are three female gods in the seven elven gods. There is only one in the pantheon of the old gods.

Just a thought or two.

[Ieldra]

Solas is very specific about locking the Elven gods in the Fade. I can't seem him leaving even a remnant behind to cause problems. Look at everything Mythal got up to as only a fragment.

Did he really say he locked them into the Fade? I don't recall that. It wouldn't seem a very effective lockaway in the first place, too, since there are various ways to get out.

The other problem is there are three female gods in the seven elven gods. There is only one in the pantheon of the old gods.

I don't think we can reliably determine who's male or female among the Old Gods. Even most of their names aren't good indicators. Also, if they're the Evanuris they're not in their natural shapes anyway.

[Iakus]

 
I don't think we can reliably determine who's male or female among the Old Gods. Even most of their names aren't good indicators. Also, if they're the Evanuris they're not in their natural shapes anyway.

Male gods in a high dragon form are definitely not in their natural Shape, Evanuris or Old God 

[Steelcan]

I don't think we can reliably determine who's male or female among the Old Gods. Even most of their names aren't good indicators. Also, if they're the Evanuris they're not in their natural shapes anyway.

the tevinters who worshiped them said they were almost exclusively male iirc, maybe one wasn't

[Steelcan]

I think the Old Gods are likely something similar to the Evanuris, but likely a rival group, the Forgotten Ones.  (or is it Forbidden ones?, the ones who aren't the demons with weird names)

 

He locked one group beyond the Fade and the other far underground.

[Iakus]

I think the Old Gods are likely something similar to the Evanuris, but likely a rival group, the Forgotten Ones.  (or is it Forbidden ones?, the ones who aren't the demons with weird names)

 

He locked one group beyond the Fade and the other far underground.

It's certainly possible.  THough we do know the names of a few of the FOrgotten Ones:  Daern'thal, Anaris, Geldauran.

 

Of course, the Vints could have renamed some or all of them.

[Gervaise]

There has to be some sort of link for the reasons you give.   Also the constant referencing the elven gods in connection with the old gods that are depicted in the star constellations.    Strangely enough I remember Sebastian talking with Merrill about their respective beliefs and he commented how similar some of them were and how perhaps they were both talking about the same thing, just in a different way, which considering how invested he was in the Chantry showed a remarkable degree of open mindedness.  

 

The fact is we have two racial myths; in both there are said to be false gods who were cast down as a punishment for their hubris.    Both sets are gods are known to take dragon form.    Of course we also know about Hakkon but even the beliefs exhibited by the Avaar seem to connect to some extent with what we know about Mythal.   In the wall paintings by the Augar it showed a god leading a clan of the Avaar in their material form and being cut down, returning to the Fade, only to return after the prayers of their followers presumably helped them to retain their sense of identity during their reforming in the Fade.      When we kill Hakkon, the spirit returns to the Fade and the Avaar believe this actually released it from the prison of its dragon body.  

 

This could be why Solas was so agitated at what the Wardens were proposing to do, because so long as the spirit was bound to the dragon underground, it couldn't escape, and when released by darkspawn, the taint seems to hold it within the dragon form.   

 

As for Flemeth wanting to help the old gods; well it is a bit pointless trying to avenge yourself on a being that doesn't remember itself.   Bouncing Uthemiel into Kieran allowed her to absorb the essence from him and take it to herself, which seems a pretty effective revenge to me, as it adds to the power to confront the final ones.    In any case, we don't know that was who she wished to revenge herself on.    We only have Solas' word that all the evanuris were responsible for Mythal's death.   It seems odd to me that if they had collectively been responsible for her murder, why are they all still honoured within Mythal's Temple?     If Abelas knew she was murdered, surely he must know who was responsible?    As must the spirits of the priests in the Well.      The spirit voices in the library were only angry with Fen'Harel.   They seemed very distressed, not relieved, at the disappearance of their gods, initially holding out the vain hope that the evanuris would soon return and sort out the mess Solas had created.     In all the memories we read, the only ones that criticise the evanuris are those of Fen'Harel himself and his followers. 

 

Suggest also checking out the Canticle of Exaltations: a prophesy of the future by Drakon.   In it he claims to have been given a vision of the eventual return of the Maker with Andraste.    In it he sees things such as "ancient ones" awakening, whose "dreams had been devoured by a demon that prowled the Fade as a wolf hunts a herd of deer".   He sees the sacred mountain "upon which rests the mortal dust of our lady" ascended whole into the heavens" and around it spirits sing "whatsoever passes through the fire is not lost, but made eternal."    He sees the seven gates of the Black city shattered and darkness cover both realms.    Then the Lady says "Remember the fire.   You must pass through it alone to be forged anew."   Finally at the end Andraste declares "By the Maker's will I decree, Harmony in all things.   Let Balance be restored and the world given eternal life."

 

Compare this with the belief of the Dalish that when they remember what it is to be true elves, their gods will return to them.   If Solas drops the Veil, the ancient elves will remember their true selves and the gods will return, the world will be plunged into fiery chaos, before he restores his world of immortal, magical elves.      

 

It seems to me that the Dalish and the Chant again have a common belief about the results of the end of the current world; either the writers are giving us an awful lot of red herrings or there has to be some common ground between their myths.   Notice in particular the reference to 7 gates of the Black City.    7 gates for 7 gods?    Yet why did the Maker make 7 gates for false gods?    In other parts of the Chant, there is only one gate.    Seems to me that whoever was influencing the beliefs of the Dalish was also influencing the vision of Drakon and I have great doubts that it was the Maker.

 

Another thing, the Canticle of Shartan probably wasn't a story of the true Shartan, any more than the Chant reflects the true history of Andraste.    The preface in WoT2 says that much of it seems based on a elvish folk tale of a trickster warrior leading a rebellion against tyrants.    So that at least seems to me to be the story of a meeting between Mythal and Fen'Harel before they assault the city of Arlathan and the author most likely Solas himself.    If you take a look at the next entry about Andraste's betrayal, it speaks of her going to consult the Maker at the urging of Maferath by a "silver pool".    Andraste was actually captured from a stronghold in Nevarra.    So is the betrayal by a silver pool, that of Mythal, going to a lyrium spring to charge herself before battle?

[Andromelek]

It's certainly possible.  THough we do know the names of a few of the FOrgotten Ones:  Daern'thal, Anaris, Geldauran.
 
Of course, the Vints could have renamed some or all of them.

I'm not sure, Forgotten Ones are supposed to master the Blight (while Old Gods fall victim of it), Anaris stabbed Andruil and Geldauran had the chance to join the Creators, judging for Evanuirs' nature I assume Forgotten Ones are either a rogue faction of Evanuirs or perhaps Spirits, but at this point I doubt they were Dragons.

[Ieldra]

Another similar hypothesis has been posted here. Posting this to keep track of possible synergies.

[Abelis]

Another similar hypothesis has been posted here. Posting this to keep track of possible synergies.

 If the Evanuris=Old Gods, then how would you explain what Solas says: "There is nothing in any lore connecting my people to the old gods"

 

His people are not the Evanuris and other spirit-elves? But he says 'the first of his people are not easily killed' talking about the Evanuris so I guess they are in 'his' people scope.

Maybe he means that Old Gods are not spirits that materialized, but something else?

(and no, I dont believe he is lying, he maybe telling us less than he knows, but not lying straighforward)

 

I know this is far-fetched so im putting it under a spoiler:

Spoiler

Could it be the Old Gods are actually Titans whose essence could take the form of dragons, (like spirits took the form of elves) with emotional/functional similarities to spirit-elf 'gods', the material world a mirror of the spirit world, like their counterparts in the 'unchanging' world?

 

Could it be the war between new and old gods, was actually a war between imagination shaping the world, and material/'physical' laws shaping it?

A war between 'imagination' and 'reality'?

 

And the Veil divided these worlds, so it could explain why Solas would see everyone in this world as a Tranquill at first, like cut of their past imagination possibility which he knew was so powerful, that one time it could change or create anything out of will.

 

Maybe for the world to be whole, it needs both 'reality' and 'imagination' parts in a balance and peace with each other, a balance that was not kept in his time, while the evanuris tried to expoit the old god/titans/their lyrium blood to become the only rulers shaping everything? And Mythal trying to keep the balance, the treaty between old and new gods was murdered as seen an obstacle to their lust for power?

 

That could explain why Mythal wants to maintain Urthemiel's essence or why Solas is against killing the old gods, because to have balance between worlds you need all counterparts but first reborn. And when Archdaemons (corrupted old god bodies containing the soul) are killed is like how Mythal's material body was killed (because after her murder, she evidently didn't seize to exist)

 

So, the only difference between them are the realms they come from, and not what they represent.

 

On another note, only Mythal is known to take the form of a Dragon, not the other Evanuris (they have different animals to shapeshift to) and only Mythal is known to have killed a Titan (titans?) so far, thus is why she is able to take that form?

 

The sinner story says that the sinner took a form that could fly only meant for gods, but it doesnt say it was a dragon. Not only dragons fly.

But even if it was a dragon form, it could mean that the evanuris considered the old gods equally 'divine' (like leader generals type of their own realm, who although lost the war with them) and the first breaches on the treaty where starting to show.

 

*edited because this theory is a bit nuts, trying to write it sounding more coherent

Modifié par Abelis, 14 novembre 2015 - 08:21 .

[Ghost Gal]

I doubt it. Solas may lie by omission a lot (ex: truthfully saying he's from a small village north, neglecting to mention it's centuries-old ruins; truthfully saying he's spent most of his life in the Fade, neglecting to mention he's thousands of years old), but he rarely states bald-faced untruths. He says at one point that there is nothing in any lore connecting "my people" (the ancient elves and Evanuris like Mythal) to the old gods. I don't think he has any reason to lie about that.

 

He also says that he created the Veil to imprison the Evanuris, since "they were going to destroy the world." If the Inquisitor asks, "Wouldn't removing the Veil release them?" he responds, "I have plans." So that would imply that they are indeed sealed beyond the Veil, in the Fade, not the physical world. 

 

The Old Gods are almost outright stated to be buried deep underground, in the Deep Roads. The darkspawn swarm the Deep Roads, constantly searching for the Old Gods, and when they awaken they rally and attack the surface. (In DAO, the Warden dreams of the Archdemon giving orders to the horde deep underground, then later witnesses it leaving the underground to attack the surface.) The darkspawn are also physical creatures of the physical world, in the physical Deep Roads. Since they've managed to find and corrupt five hidden Old Gods (presumably underground) so far, I doubt said Old Gods are the Evanuris that are (implied to be) sealed in the Fade.

[Todrazok]

I have an off the cuff theory that the Old Gods are to the Evanuris what the Blight Dragon was to Corypheus, or the pendant was to Flemythal.  Or the Ring was to Sauron, for an out of setting example.  They were a receptacle for part of their power and possibly a backup plan so that no one could do to them what they did to Mythal.
 
By separating them from their dragons, via the Veil, Solas weakened them considerably.  He's pissed at the Grey Wardens because they're destroying what amounts to giant magic batteries they he feels could be better used to advance his goals, once he can get to them.  And since he doesn't view anyone but ancient elves as people, he's probably ok with Archdemons what run amok for centuries, murdering millions.
 
Haven't really thought it out very far, though.

This, I feel like Corypheus and his immortality is already very similar to how Flemeth ressurected herself. It would not surprise me one bit to learn that the Evanuris had something of a equivalent to the red lyrium dragon.

[Gervaise]

A couple of thoughts.   Morrigan gets her knowledge of how to defeat Corypheus from what the spirits of the Well tell her.   Thus, regardless of what Solas says about the relationship of his people to the old gods, there has to be some sort of connection; otherwise why would the former priests of Mythal know what to do?   Morrigan specifically says that Corypheus invested part of himself in the dragon and that no doubt it was done out of pride to mimic the gods of old.    This implies that the gods of old did in fact split their essence in order to ensure effective immortality should anyone attempt to kill them.  Corypheus also got a lot of his ideas from knowledge he gained from the orb, so it is likely he got the idea of the dragon from there as well.   His ability to jump into Grey Wardens was there back in Legacy and is linked to the Blight, so really he had no need to transfer his essence to the dragon in order to survive, so Morrigan is likely right and he did it because he wanted to mimic the old gods.  

 

There is a bit of lore concerning the Tirashan elves that states they didn't worship the elven gods but the Forgotten Ones.     Dalish lore states that Fen'Harel shut away two sets of gods.   Contrary to what the writers make Lavellan say, and many people on the Boards keep saying, actually the Dalish tales did get a lot of their history right.    They certainly were accurate about him shutting away the elven gods, so why not the Forgotten Ones as well?   He confirmed what he did with the evanuris but not what he did with the others.    Even if Solas didn't imprison them, then someone did.    The Forbidden Ones continued to walk the Fade and enter Thedas when they could but I don't recall an encounter with any of the Forgotten Ones; not even all their names are remembered.    So they could easily be the seven old gods of Tevinter who whispered the secrets of magic from the depths of the earth.   It would also explain why they had no objection to the secrets of magic being used against the last remnants of the elven empire; because these were the followers of their ancient enemies.    Could also explain why Flemeth/Mythal didn't hold a grudge against them because they weren't responsible for her murder but they did have a sort of kinship, because all originally probably had the same origins.

[Medhia_Nox]

I think both the Old Gods and Evanuris are spirits who were drawn through the Veil and took form.  The Old Gods took the form of dragons.  The Evanuris took the form of elves.  Cole took the form of a human (to continue the example). 

 

Note:  Solas says:  "I was Solas before I was Fen'Harel"  We know Solas means "Pride" - I believe Solas was a Pride demon that became an elf. 

 

I believe spirits are Solas' people... not the elves, and that's why the elves were enslaved by "their gods" AND why he WILL kill the elves in his remaking of the world.  ((Vir Dithara:  Exile of the Forbidden Ones))  ((Vir Dithara:  The Deepest Fade))  It's clear Mythal is a spirit "now" (she turns Flemeth into an abomination) - I think she (and the other Evanuris) were always spirits. 

 

I also believe there may have been a battle between the Evanuris and the Old Gods where Elgar'nan imprisoned the Old Gods beneath the Earth - while Solas almost certainly imprisoned the Evanuris.   

 

I do not believe Solas created the Veil... I believe it's possible he strengthened it... or, more likely - that whatever he did accidentally strengthened the Veil.  My belief is that the Veil is somehow enforced by the Titans... this is not just wishful thinking - there are codexes from Trespasser that can help support this.  ((Vir Dithara: Attentive Listeners))

 

I believe that Solas wants to save the Old Gods because of the Titan's wrath - I believe their killing of Titans created the Darkspawn... and the Darkspawn are taking Old Gods - corrupting them with the blight - and sending them against the world.  To the Evanuris - who are spirits - this would be an atrocity (one they caused, but who's keeping track).  ((Codex:  Veilfire Runes in the Deep Roads)) 

 

I believe the titans were the original, and natural, lords of Thedas (A personal pet theory is that Thedas itself is "the Golden/Black City" but that's pure conjecture).   I believe it's possible that mages are "Children of the Titans" and were originally meant to oppose the Evanuris and the Old Gods (and any other spirits invading Thedas). 

 

Of course - mortals are stupid and easily swayed by people they give authority to. 

 

The Old Gods - imprisoned by the Evanuris (who were not above opposing other spirits as we see with the Forbidden Ones) - wanting revenge, called to the Magisters to either 1) release them or 2) unleash the "great anger" created by the Evanuris which I believe was/is the darkspawn.  So - I believe the Magisters DID release the great hate the Evanuris buried beneath the earth - became drawkspawn - and the Old Gods got royally screwed as well as they lay still imprisoned and yearning for release - but instead are being found by the darkspawn and corrupted.  ((Codex:  Vielfire Ruins in the Deep Roads)) 

 

NOTE:  My whole Thedas is the Golden/Black City is slightly from here (( Codex Entry: The Eternal Battle: Darkspawn))  I believe the Evanuris corrupted Thedas - she produced the darkspawn which are the perversion of her original children - the dwarves (both using songs of control for the People)  Also:  ((Codex Entry:  When It's Quiet - "The Stone" being Thedas))

 

The Taint, Lyrium, Blood and the Fade seem to be four sources of magic.  Darkspawn draw from the Taint, all mages are blood mages (kills me to say that), spirits use the Fade,  and... I believe dwarves use, or did use, lyrium (and they still do, with enchantment).  

 

The Taint infects the blood - the Blight is the physical manifestation of transformation on Thedas not unlike what happens when the Fade touches Thedas - Darkspawn draw from the Taint in their blood to produce magic.  They cannot use Lyrium or Fade magic it would seem (though the truth is unknown) and it's possible they can use Blood magic.

 

Mana is the opposite of the taint and is in the blood of mages.  Regular mages use their natural mana reserves in their blood.  "Blood Mages" release this mana directly - or use other's mana - for greater effect.  I think it weakens the Veil because it's like an open wound that invites an infection.

 

Fade magic is what spirits use - mages use it as well when they enter the Fade - Darkspawn can also use the Fade, Corypheus is proof of this.  Though Fade magic is the most potent - I do not believe it operates under "rules".  It's just "whatever you can imagine, you can do" this is reinforced over and over about the Fade that I think it's totally wrong to think the Fade can be studied in any scientific way (forget that it's infinite). 

 

Lyrium magic is to Fade magic... what Taint magic is to Blood Magic (note, my opinion now is that every mage is actually a "blood" mage without being what we've come to know as a Blood mage)  Lyrium magic is only currently present on Thedas in the form of "Enchantment!"  however - I believe Shaper Valta is now the first user of Lyrium magic and she will not be the last.  Lyrium magic is the "Stone Sense" of dwarves.. the music they hear. 

 

Note, I believe Lyrium and Fade magic are the "superior" magics... while Taint and Blood magic are their inferior counterparts. 

 

I believe these different forms can empower, or influence, one another and that each group "can" utilize the others potentially.  Lyrium empowers blood and Fade magic.  Taint magic can infect lyrium magic (red lyrium and the song the darkspawn here), etc.

 

We'll see as this all unfolds.  But I do want to see newly empowered lyrium mage dwarves bust some elven arse.