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[Hydwn]

As the title states, this thread is to explore the possibility that it takes an ancient magister - and maybe the ancient magister who began as the priest for the Old God in question - to corrupt an Old God into an archdemon.

 

The implications of this, of course, is that it might be possible for the Wardens to kill the magister and not the Old God, thereby permanently interrupting future Blights.

 

Thanks to all sources, we know that seven ancient magisters entered the Fade, one for each god.  World of Thedas 2 gives us their names:

 

• The Conductor (Corypheus) for Dumat (the first archdemon)
• The Madman for Zazikel (the second archdemon)
• The Forgewright for Toth (the third archdemon)
• The Appraiser for Andoral (the fourth archdemon)
• The Architect for Urthmiel (the fifth archdemon, fought in Origins)
• The Augur for Razikale (the likely next archdemon)
• The Watchman for Lusacan (likely the last archdemon)

My theory goes that Corypheus woke Dumat, the Madman woke Zazikel, the Forgewright woke Toth, the Appraiser woke Andoral.

 

Evidence is circumstantial, but for me compelling.

 

We know of the circumstances surrounding only one of these awakenings, specifically the Architect woke Urthmiel.  He can admit this in Awakening.  We also know that the Architect was reluctant to start another Blight and was looking for a way to avoid it, and that the gap between the third and fourth Blight was the longest of all - more than 400 years, compared to the less than 200 years for the next largest gap

 

Indeed, unless the Architect is lying, he has forgotten he is an original magister.  It may be that the Calling was playing with his memories to get him to find Urthmiel.  We do know that the Calling messes with people's heads.

 

We know that the Old Gods are "dragons or something like dragons."  I strongly suspect they are spirit-gods summoned into dragon form like Hakkon.  We know that dragons are very hard to corrupt - even Corypheus, who likely created the first broodmothers and darkspawn - had to use red lyrium to corrupt his in a roundabout way.  It's likely something that does not happen accidentally, and something mindless darkspawn who hear the call are unlikely to do accidentally.

 

I further suspect that the magisters can only go one at a time - that the next one on the list can't find and awaken its archdemon until the previous one has gone.  That would be why there is only one archdemon at a time, and they are never close together.  It may well be that the magisters are asleep or in stasis until their time comes.

Once the magister has fulfilled its duty, I am guessing it is no longer needed.  Corypheus and the Architect tried to find a new purpose.  I'm guessing the "three darkspawn kings" mentioned in a codex "A different darkspawn" were the Madman, Forgewright, and Appraiser, who found no larger purpose other than bickering with each other.

Of course I could be way off on this.  I usually am

[Reznore57]

It's possible.

Cory was drawn to Dumat's carcass , and Archi woke Urthemiel up.

I really can't understand why it would work like this though , if it's true there has to be a link somewhere .

With the Blight , the ancient magisters should be drawn to all the Old Gods , they can still hear the Calling , in theory they aren't under any compulsion ...I say in theory because even if Archi says so , he ended up messing with Urthemiel when he wasn't even aware he used to be one of his priests.

 

Not sure if it's a magical bond and if so when the hell did that happen?Before the Golden City or when they were in there?

Or those people used to be very very devout and even if they can't remember it , their old faith still has power over their psyche.

[Hydwn]

It's possible.

Cory was drawn to Dumat's carcass , and Archi woke Urthemiel up.

I really can't understand why it would work like this though , if it's true there has to be a link somewhere .

With the Blight , the ancient magisters should be drawn to all the Old Gods , they can still hear the Calling , in theory they aren't under any compulsion ...I say in theory because even if Archi says so , he ended up messing with Urthemiel when he wasn't even aware he used to be one of his priests.

 

Not sure if it's a magical bond and if so when the hell did that happen?Before the Golden City or when they were in there?

Or those people used to be very very devout and even if they can't remember it , their old faith still has power over their psyche.

 

It seems clear to me that the system was very carefully set up by something, and not just an accident.  Early on after DAI, I wondered if the blight weren't just some sort of antibody that the genius loci  that is the Fade inflicts on invading organisms before expelling them, but there's just too much contrived in the system of bringing the Old Gods to the surface for it to be an instinctual, unthinking weapon.

I can think of three possibilities, in accordance with the three most popular theories about the Blight:

• This elaborate system was set up by the Maker, to eliminate the Old Gods and punish humans. Punish does not mean eliminate - multiple archdemons would be impossible to destroy before they wiped people out.
• It was set up by the Old Gods themselves to free themselves and make them powerful, and just as the magisters had an order of precedence, so did the Old Gods.  Each one gets a chance at...well, whatever they were trying to do.  The magisters thing is each one taking their turn.
• It was set up by Mythal (that "Mythal controls the calling" theory), and whatever her purpose is, it is not actually the destruction of the world.  Killing everything off would be counterproductive to that purpose, and so one archdemon at a time.

What it would make clear is that the system of magisters/archdemons/blights was not an accident.  Someone willed it to happen, and even arranged a system for it to happen in a specific order.

[In Exile]

It's also possible the whole system was set up as a failsafe control. Considered this: the Evanuris take some action that inflicted the blight on all of Thedas. They seal the Deep Roads. But the blight is insidious - it can infect lyrium (and Titans) and there is a great deal of life in the deep roads. Darkspawn borrow and don't need food. So clearly you need some mechanism to keep all this in line.

Perhaps that's the series of prisons, "old gods" and the creative use of a call.

[Hydwn]

It's also possible the whole system was set up as a failsafe control. Considered this: the Evanuris take some action that inflicted the blight on all of Thedas. They seal the Deep Roads. But the blight is insidious - it can infect lyrium (and Titans) and there is a great deal of life in the deep roads. Darkspawn borrow and don't need food. So clearly you need some mechanism to keep all this in line.

Perhaps that's the series of prisons, "old gods" and the creative use of a call.

 

That's an interesting theory.  Do you think it would be something the Evanuris set up before they were trapped, a doomsday weapon no one was left to watch over?  Or some act of revenge from the Beyond...?

 

(Now I'm remembering that codex entry about Andruil, where she became mad and violent from her time in the Void - I thought the Void was just a Chantry concept, analogous to hell, but Elven glyphs mention it too.)

[In Exile]

That's an interesting theory.  Do you think it would be something the Evanuris set up before they were trapped, a doomsday weapon no one was left to watch over?  Or some act of revenge from the Beyond...?

 

(Now I'm remembering that codex entry about Andruil, where she became mad and violent from her time in the Void - I thought the Void was just a Chantry concept, analogous to hell, but Elven glyphs mention it too.)

 

Think about it this way. We learn in JOH that dragon abominations are very different from just plain dragons, and have quite a lot of qualities one might ascribe to a god in the setting. A fair number of people go with that to say, perhaps the OGs were dragon abominations. I actually agree with that view, but I think it misses one important part of the story: the Avaar created their gods. JOH is, basically, a god built in a (spiritual) lab. When their gods "die", they make new ones.

 

So we know that beings that are akin to gods can be, literally, created. And they can be created by a kind of... desire for them to be something. Hakkon had the qualities of a god of war because people took a spirit and made it into that kind of being. So it's quite plausible that the Evanuris could have grabbed some dragons that were lying around - or those "great" dragons or whatever that apparently were mentioned in the DA2 comic w/ Alistiar/Varric - and created a very special kind of dragon abomination. 

 

What they did with it.. who knows. Maybe they needed dragon abominations to control titans. Maybe that was part of it. Or maybe that part came later. It's all speculation at this point because we have no evidence. 

[TatoDragon]

There are also some facts about taint and the Black City:

• Avernus says demons aren't familiar with taint and Wardens could use Blight magic to fight them.
• He also says there is something in the Black City that could answer the origin of taint.
• Solas says that magic is simply a magic, it's not evil, even in the blood magic form.
• He also notes that Blight magic Corypheus uses corrupts everything it touches.
• The taint existed before the First Blight (the Primeval Thaig was corrupted long before them)
• The Black City once was indeed Golden (even tevinter mages called it Golden)
• The magisters were corrupted and they did fall from the sky.
• The darkspawn appeared soon after that from the underground and began war with dwarven empire.
• There were some corrupted magisters with the darkspawn during first years of the First Blight (ancient dwarven writings in The Descent).
• The priests of the Old Gods could hear their gods until they entered the Black City, after that they have silenced.
• Darkspawn hear the song of the Old Gods, while the corrupted magisters cannot.
• Dumat ordered Corypheus to enter the Golden City, but the other high priests received the same message only after they asked their gods about it.

I have some theories about it:

1. Darkspawn existed long before the First Blight, but the corruption of the magisters somehow affected them.
2. The Old Gods aren't masterminds of the Blight - everything indicates that the taint twists them like it does the ghouls, but affects them differently. I think, the Old Gods are just victims.
3. Solas indirectly says the Blights won't end even if the last archdemon is killed. That has two explanations: 1. Something much more powerful controls the darkspawn and the Old Gods are not the main players; 2. The Old Gods might return after death, that means they are similar to Fade spirits.
4. Elves could hear the Evanuris just like the Tevinter magisters could hear the Old Gods and the avvar augurs hear their own gods. But the Evanuris silenced after Solas created the Veil, and the Old Gods silenced after the magisters entered the Black City. I should mention that Hakkon also silenced after the Jaws summoned him into the dragon.
5. Taint twists titans - carvings on the red lyrium crystals in the domain of the Nightmare contain melody of the corrupted titans.
6. The Evanuris might be connected with the Old Gods (Flemeth tries to capture Urthemiel), but they are not the same: it's true we have seven elven gods captured somewhere in the sky and seven tevinter gods underground, but there are three female elven gods (Andruil, Ghillan'nain (or whatever she is called) and Sylaise, Mythal's excluded) and only one tevinter (Razikale).

That's all at the moment.

[Azarias59]

There are also some facts about taint and the Black City:

• Avernus says demons aren't familiar with taint and Wardens could use Blight magic to fight them.
• He also says there is something in the Black City that could answer the origin of taint.
• Solas says that magic is simply a magic, it's not evil, even in the blood magic form.
• He also notes that Blight magic Corypheus uses corrupts everything it touches.
• The taint existed before the First Blight (the Primeval Thaig was corrupted long before them)
• The Black City once was indeed Golden (even tevinter mages called it Golden)
• The magisters were corrupted and they did fall from the sky.
• The darkspawn appeared soon after that from the underground and began war with dwarven empire.
• There were some corrupted magisters with the darkspawn during first years of the First Blight (ancient dwarven writings in The Descent).
• The priests of the Old Gods could hear their gods until they entered the Black City, after that they have silenced.
• Darkspawn hear the song of the Old Gods, while the corrupted magisters cannot.
• Dumat ordered Corypheus to enter the Golden City, but the other high priests received the same message only after they asked their gods about it.

I have some theories about it:

1. Darkspawn existed long before the First Blight, but the corruption of the magisters somehow affected them.
2. The Old Gods aren't masterminds of the Blight - everything indicates that the taint twists them like it does the ghouls, but affects them differently. I think, the Old Gods are just victims.
3. Solas indirectly says the Blights won't end even if the last archdemon is killed. That has two explanations: 1. Something much more powerful controls the darkspawn and the Old Gods are not the main players; 2. The Old Gods might return after death, that means they are similar to Fade spirits.
4. Elves could hear the Evanuris just like the Tevinter magisters could hear the Old Gods and the avvar augurs hear their own gods. But the Evanuris silenced after Solas created the Veil, and the Old Gods silenced after the magisters entered the Black City. I should mention that Hakkon also silenced after the Jaws summoned him into the dragon.
5. Taint twists titans - carvings on the red lyrium crystals in the domain of the Nightmare contain melody of the corrupted titans.
6. The Evanuris might be connected with the Old Gods (Flemeth tries to capture Urthemiel), but they are not the same: it's true we have seven elven gods captured somewhere in the sky and seven tevinter gods underground, but there are three female elven gods (Andruil, Ghillan'nain (or whatever she is called) and Sylaise, Mythal's excluded) and only one tevinter (Razikale).

That's all at the moment.

From what I've read in the lore, it seems to me that the Old Gods went silent *before* the assault on the Black City. Then, as the Tevinter priests were freaking out, the Old Gods - or some entity claiming to be them - put it in their hearts to enter the Black City.

[Gervaise]

I also wondered whether it had taken a Magister to awaken each of the old gods and not simply darkspawn tunnelling.    I also wondered if the old gods were already tainted before whoever broke through to them; they were simply asleep and breaking through awoke them.    Both lyrium and red lyrium sing, so the song of the old gods could simply be their corruption with red lyrium.      Could they have been imprisoned because they were already corrupt?

 

Solas says in the Shrine of Sacred Ashes that the red lyrium there was corrupted by the magic used.    Could excessive use of magic have corrupted lyrium in ancient times or was it simply that it was the blood of a corrupted titan?    

 

In the Last Flight it clearly states that the strange magic that the archdemon uses does not draw its power from the Fade but somewhere else, presumably the Void.   

 

Whatever the case, the story given in the Chant, which in turn was said to come from Andraste, seems just that, a story.    She says the reason the Magisters were cast out from the Fade for their crimes by the Maker was that "no mortal may walk bodily in the realm of dreams", but we know that is not true since the Inquisitor and their party walked bodily in the realm of dreams and the reason for this was the anchor.   This was not bestowed by the Maker but belonged to Fen'Harel and he had intended using it for the same purpose.    

 

So the key to the blight and probably overcoming it lies with the magic of the ancient elves.    Either they caused it or at least they were the first to uncover it, thousands of years before the Magisters set foot in the Fade.     Whether the old gods are remnants of the evanuris or the forgotten ones or some other dragon god/spirits, we are yet to find out the true reason they ended up where they did.

[TatoDragon]

From what I've read in the lore, it seems to me that the Old Gods went silent *before* the assault on the Black City. Then, as the Tevinter priests were freaking out, the Old Gods - or some entity claiming to be them - put it in their hearts to enter the Black City.

Both Chant of Light in WoT2 and Corypheus in DA2 state that Dumat ordered the Conductor (aka Corypheus) to enter the Golden City. When Cory told about it to the Architet, he asked his own god about it, and Urthemiel confirmed Dumat's words. Soon rest of the high priests heard it - they were ordered to open a portal and enter the Golden City. But when the priests entered in, they found no Dragon Gods there - the Chant states they found the Maker, and Cory states they found only darkness, taint and destruction.

 

There is something interesting in the Chant of Light - it tells about a "Faithful acolyte", who refused to fulfil a ritual and fled to warn an archon (who is shown to be wise man, not a "muha-ha-ha" type, unlike the high priests). When the high priests were tainted and thrown back, it is told that the Old Gods stopped whispering, and the acolyte sensed it before reaching the archon.

[TatoDragon]

Gervaise

 

Forget about the Void - Avernus says the taint contains power that might be used instead of magic, Andoral in the Last Flight uses that kind of power.

 

Song in lyrium is a song of titans, however the song in red lyrium is very different, Cole states, that it is a "closed door that nobody wants to open" (or something like that). Still, there are very sinister carvings in red lyrium crystal in the Fade during Here Lies the Abyss that state it (the red lyrium song) is some kind of call or promize of entities that were dormant or sealed but now are going to wake or be freed.

[MKDAWUSS]

I kinda hope that the last Blight is fought with tanks and missiles

[In Exile]

Both Chant of Light in WoT2 and Corypheus in DA2 state that Dumat ordered the Conductor (aka Corypheus) to enter the Golden City. When Cory told about it to the Architet, he asked his own god about it, and Urthemiel confirmed Dumat's words. Soon rest of the high priests heard it - they were ordered to open a portal and enter the Golden City. But when the priests entered in, they found no Dragon Gods there - the Chant states they found the Maker, and Cory states they found only darkness, taint and destruction.

 

There is something interesting in the Chant of Light - it tells about a "Faithful acolyte", who refused to fulfil a ritual and fled to warn an archon (who is shown to be wise man, not a "muha-ha-ha" type, unlike the high priests). When the high priests were tainted and thrown back, it is told that the Old Gods stopped whispering, and the acolyte sensed it before reaching the archon.

 

Both Chant of Light in WoT2 and Corypheus in DA2 state that Dumat ordered the Conductor (aka Corypheus) to enter the Golden City. When Cory told about it to the Architet, he asked his own god about it, and Urthemiel confirmed Dumat's words. Soon rest of the high priests heard it - they were ordered to open a portal and enter the Golden City. But when the priests entered in, they found no Dragon Gods there - the Chant states they found the Maker, and Cory states they found only darkness, taint and destruction.

 

There is something interesting in the Chant of Light - it tells about a "Faithful acolyte", who refused to fulfil a ritual and fled to warn an archon (who is shown to be wise man, not a "muha-ha-ha" type, unlike the high priests). When the high priests were tainted and thrown back, it is told that the Old Gods stopped whispering, and the acolyte sensed it before reaching the archon.

 

I'm a fan of the idea that regardless of what the "old gods" are, the voices Corypheus and the others heard were the voices of the Evanuris, who wanted the Magisters to do something that would shake open their prison. Releasing the blight might have been part of that plot.