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[pseudobunny]

Also, Thedas doesn't have the same level of communication that we have today. Some languages/dialects are arguably moving closer due to increased communication, such as British and American English, but it's not like Thedas has television. To me it makes more sense that there would be a greater variation in languages or dialects. Worst case scenario, Tevene as a native language is essentially dead and only survives in short phrases or the Ancient Tevene used by scholars. Best case, the original tweet is either wrong or retconned. For me at least. But it would be a shame if something as interesting as Tevene (or any other language in DA) is stopped by limitations of resources.

On a related note, Project Tevene is a thing that exists! They're doing the Maker's work.

[nightscrawl]

I don't think it's so much a limitation of resources as it is impractical to develop a full language for very minor, specific scenes.

 

I'll use a fictional language whose development I'm familiar with: Klingon -- yes, trekkie here, but I don't speak it or anything. That language was initially developed for the first Star Trek film, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, where it was used in a couple of short scenes at the beginning. It was later developed more fully and expanded on as the need arose for various films and TV episodes. There are also inconsistencies where some episode writers deviated from the standard dialect that was developed, made up new words, didn't follow established grammar rules, and so forth.

 

It is not easy trying to wrangle something like that when there are so many people working on a production. Hell, the DA team even has a dedicated lore person and even sometimes they get it wrong -- not a retcon, but an actual mistake that needs to be corrected.

 

Even something that was intentionally highly developed from the beginning, Dothraki for Game of Thrones, needed a dedicated linguist. From wikipedia, "As of September 2011, [Dothraki] comprised 3,163 words," while, "At the start of June 2013, there were 667 High Valyrian words." And of course you have the very special case of J. R. R. Tolkien, who was a linguist himself.

 

I actually quite like what they did with Elvish in DA. The People, the nomadic Dalish, struggle to hold onto their history, including the language, so it makes complete sense that they don't know more than various phrases.

 

However, it is this language development barrier that leads me to think we will likely never play a native Qunari that starts off on Par Vollen because the games have led us to believe that Qunari is a full language that is in use by the Qunari. The dialogue between Fenris and Tallis make that quite clear.

 

If Tevene were more fully developed and stated to be the common language in Tevinter, then we would expect to hear it if we go there in a game. If that were the case, poor people and most slaves likely would not know the Trade language because there would have been no opportunity, and no reason, for them to learn it. There are all sorts of little cues that would need to be thrown in to provide the atmosphere of a different culture with its own language.

 

To give an example in another game, World of Warcraft has various languages for its many races. The two primary factions of the game, Horde and Alliance, are separated by a game-enforced language barrier: if a Horde player types out something to an Alliance player, they will see basically organized gibberish, and vice versa, and there are language settings that turn whatever you are typing into Orcish, Common, etc, but the player is still typing in their native language. I also think it is somewhat randomized, because otherwise players would have broken it long ago to enable communication between the Horde and Alliance factions. BUT, even though the game has these  "languages," they're not really present culturally other than a very few remarks by some NPCs: greetings, farewells, battle cries, and so on. Everything else is presented in the language of the region you're playing in -- in my case, English -- 99% of dialogue, quest text, informational or codex-type text, and everything else.

[Iakus]

 

 

However, it is this language development barrier that leads me to think we will likely never play a native Qunari that starts off on Par Vollen because the games have led us to believe that Qunari is a full language that is in use by the Qunari. The dialogue between Fenris and Tallis make that quite clear.

 

 

Not only that, but Qunari (as in the giants who might or might not have horns) generally have a hard time speaking languages other than Qunlat.  One reason why they have a reputation for being so taciturn (speaking the trade language does not come easily to them).  Gregarious Qunari like Iron Bull are likely the exception rather than the rule.

[Aeratus]

Did anyone notice that the ending scene of Trespasser has the term "Tevinter" written in English on the map used by the Inquisitor? That was totally an immersion-breaking moment for me, since English (or any Latin-based alphabet languages) isn't supposed to be in the game. 

[nightscrawl]

Did anyone notice that the ending scene of Trespasser has the term "Tevinter" written in English on the map used by the Inquisitor? That was totally an immersion-breaking moment for me, since English (or any Latin-based alphabet languages) isn't supposed to be in the game. 

 

I can see your point, but it's really for the player's benefit, particularly since they were trying to bring home that the knife was being stabbed into Tevinter. In the game files are also two versions of the war table map, one with text and one without. I suppose it didn't phase me because I've seen official versions of the Thedas map with text on it since DAO.

[pseudobunny]

Ah, yeah, you're right about that. It is silly to expect them to create an entire language and entirely wishful thinking on my part. IT'S JUST... TEVENE, MAN.

As for a game starting in Par Vollen couldn't they just have translation convention and say that the character speaks fluent Qunlat? In the same way that English isn't the common tongue, that's just what I see it as. If DA4 is set in Tevinter it could be assumed that the PC already speaks Tevene so it would therefore be rendered as whatever language the game is being played in.

[nightscrawl]

Sorry this is a tome. I think this I'm finally winding down on the subject.

 

 

^ I think that would be fine if the game were to be set entirely in Tevinter and had only Tevene-speaking persons in it.

 

Let's take a movie like, say, The Hunt for Red October**, which has one of the better translation transitions in it that I've seen in film. Near the beginning, the Russian scenes in the movie have English subtitles, and there is a scene where a Russian guy is reading a passage from a book in Russian. The camera slowly zooms in on his mouth as he's reading. In a single breath, from one word to the next, he switches from Russian to English, the subtitles disappear, and the viewer understands (or, is supposed to understand) that they are still speaking in Russian, but we are hearing English for our own benefit. The Russian-only scenes stay in this way until they meet the Americans, during which they speak Russian again and we again have the subtitles.

 

And to again bring in a Star trek reference, in Star trek VI: The Undiscovered Country is a trial scene in a Klingon court. The spoken language switches from Klingon to English at one point, but Capt. Kirk and co. are still holding the translator box to their ear because the language is still supposed to be Klingon. There is actually a bit of a bizarre moment during the trial where the Klingon guy questioning Kirk yells, "Don't wait for the translation, answer me now!" and the viewer (well, I do at any rate) is left to wonder, "Er... if he can't understand you [because you're speaking in Klingon], how is he supposed to know that you just told him not to wait for the translation, without waiting for the translation?" But if he actually yelled that line in English, how is the viewer supposed to know that if he was supposedly speaking in Klingon in the previous moment? o_O

 

You can think of it in another way: if everyone is speaking Tevene, but we are hearing English, why would there then be sprinklings of Tevene? If there were, that would just lead one to assume that everyone was speaking English (or Trade, as the case may be) and these certain individuals switched to Tevene for whatever purpose. I understand you, you understand me, we understand each other and we're all speaking the same language; so there wouldn't then suddenly be a different sounding language that is actually the language we're supposed to be speaking.

 

For a final example, I'll point to Doctor Who where the above was used to humorous effect. The T.A.R.D.I.S. -- the thing/ship they travel in -- has a translation circuit that affects the Doctor and companions and enables them to understand the language of wherever they travel to, and likewise the natives can understand them. In the episode The Fires of Pompeii (s4,e2), the Doctor and companion travel to Ancient Rome. After arriving, his companion learns about the translation effect and wonders what would happen if one were to speak Latin to one of the Romans. She does so by saying the phrase veni, vidi, vici, and the Roman then yells that he can't understand Gaelic (or something along those lines). This joke is repeated a couple of times during the episode.

 

We can use the Dalish DAO origin as a comparison. Those Dalish elves are speaking in Trade with the various Elvish words and phrases thrown in here and there as we're used to. Now, what I CAN see would be something similar for a Tevinter setting with the Elvish substituted for Tevene, which would of course necessitate some more development beyond some swear words and an endearment. I think it would work particularly well if we get a glimpse into altus society.

 

BUT I can tell you from reading works like Jane Eyre where there is liberal use of French: as a non-French speaker/reader it can get frustrating because it feels like I'm missing something. Nothing really important or plot related, but that ignorance eventually grates as the examples continue to appear.

 

 

 

** I actually read your TV Tropes link after writing all this out, and found to my amusement the exact same example from The Hunt for Red October. The TV Tropes is incorrect about the meeting of the Americans and Soviets in that there are again (some, not full translation of all dialogue) English subtitles, such as, "He's turning green," after a cigarette is offered and taken.

 

 

All of that, and my previous postings, aside, I do agree that it is unfortunate that Tevene is less common than originally believed to be.

[nightscrawl]

Just to throw this out there as an additional nugget, when you take the dragon manuscript to Frederic in the Western Approach he comments about being unable to read it and Dorian remarks, "Don't look at me. Nobody's spoken that form of Tevene in seven hundred years."

 

Back at Skyhold you have a new war table operation to translate the manuscript by a guy in the Minrathous Circle's Department of Antiquities.

 

But as far as being able to read more current Tevene goes, I would be surprised if he can't. I would also be surprised if the volume he mentioned in the post-Adamant dialogue, the Liberalum -- which to me sounds like some sort of record of noble Tevinter families and their genealogies -- was not written in Tevene.

[Iakus]

Just to throw this out there as an additional nugget, when you take the dragon manuscript to Frederic in the Western Approach he comments about being unable to read it and Dorian remarks, "Don't look at me. Nobody's spoken that form of Tevene in seven hundred years."

 

Back at Skyhold you have a new war table operation to translate the manuscript by a guy in the Minrathous Circle's Department of Antiquities.

 

But as far as being able to read more current Tevene goes, I would be surprised if he can't. I would also be surprised if the volume he mentioned in the post-Adamant dialogue, the Liberalum -- which to me sounds like some sort of record of noble Tevinter families and their genealogies -- was not written in Tevene.

Seven hundred years would be kind of the Equivalent between modern and Middle English.

 

I mean, how easily can any of us read this?  

[nightscrawl]

^ You're right, I didn't think of that, but it's not as if it's completely unreadable. If it were that similar I'd think that Dorian would be able to suss out most of it with a dictionary if he sat and devoted some time to it. In that case I'd think that the biggest problem would be the phrases that just aren't in use anymore, or that now have completely different meanings, which is something one comes across often while reading Shakespeare.

 

Now, if it were Beowulf, that would be something else altogether. And of course that begs the question: if Corypheus is from over a thousand years ago, why can he even understand anything at all, especially in the DA2 Legacy DLC?!

[Gervaise]

You could equally well ask why Solas is so fluent in modern language (which I suppose you could explain through his studying it in the Fade) but also Abelas.   The writing on the walls is unintelligible to you without the assistance of the Well, yet other writing you can read perfectly well and Abelas has no trouble in communicating with you or understanding you.    I suppose we have to assume that the anchor acts like some sort of universal translator.    May be the same is true of Corypheus and the taint.   He can automatically speak and understand modern languages.     To be honest, the more you think about it, the greater the discrepancies you can find.  

[BansheeOwnage]

One thing I thought was really cool was that Leliana's VA also played her in the french version. I think. I'm fluent in french (Canada, yay!) so I played a few scenes in french once, but it was a long time ago, so I could be wrong But if true, it's cool.

[Melbella]

And of course that begs the question: if Corypheus is from over a thousand years ago, why can he even understand anything at all, especially in the DA2 Legacy DLC?!

 

 

I was going to say, he learned it in the Fade (a la Solas) but Gervaise beat me to it.

[nightscrawl]

You could equally well ask why Solas is so fluent in modern language (which I suppose you could explain through his studying it in the Fade) but also Abelas.   The writing on the walls is unintelligible to you without the assistance of the Well, yet other writing you can read perfectly well and Abelas has no trouble in communicating with you or understanding you.    I suppose we have to assume that the anchor acts like some sort of universal translator.    May be the same is true of Corypheus and the taint.   He can automatically speak and understand modern languages.     To be honest, the more you think about it, the greater the discrepancies you can find.

 
Abelas, I'll grant you. But I was under the impression that Solas was like Flemeth, either an actual 30s-40s man, or a centuries old man who has been living all this time, who was in possession of the spirit of Fen'Harel, not the actual Fen'Harel. Is there something in the game that specifically contradicts this (as in, actual evidence, dialogue, etc), or was that just your perception?

But regarding Corypheus specifically, his communication just after waking up in Legacy is the most inconsistent, since he is clearly confused and isn't even talking TO Hawke and co. at that point. He directly addresses Dumat as one would talk to God, yet he speaks the modern tongue.

 

One thing I thought was really cool was that Leliana's VA also played her in the french version. I think. I'm fluent in french (Canada, yay!) so I played a few scenes in french once, but it was a long time ago, so I could be wrong But if true, it's cool.

 
Can't you just look at the credits? But yes, that would be totally awesome if true.

[Evamitchelle]

 Abelas, I'll grant you. But I was under the impression that Solas was like Flemeth, either an actual 30s-40s man, or a centuries old man who has been living all this time, who was in possession of the spirit of Fen'Harel, not the actual Fen'Harel. Is there something in the game that specifically contradicts this (as in, actual evidence, dialogue, etc), or was that just your perception?

 

When you ask him about it in Trespasser he makes it clear that he is the actual Fen'Harel.

 

Inquisitor: Are you a fragment of what Fen'Harel once was, like Mythal ? (paraphrase is 'You're like Mythal, then?')

Solas: No. This is all I have ever been. 

[RoseLawliet]

When you ask him about it in Trespasser he makes it clear that he is the actual Fen'Harel.

 

Inquisitor: Are you a fragment of what Fen'Harel once was, like Mythal ? (paraphrase is 'You're like Mythal, then?')

Solas: No. This is all I have ever been. 

 

And here I was, about to analyze the pronouns he used when talking about Fen'Harel versus the pronouns Flemeth used when talking about Mythal. At least I don't have to now.

 

I admit I thought he was a vessel after the main game, but Trespasser made me think otherwise. But I don't remember this line! It sounds familiar, though. Or maybe my memory just is that bad.

[Evamitchelle]

And here I was, about to analyze the pronouns he used when talking about Fen'Harel versus the pronouns Flemeth used when talking about Mythal. At least I don't have to now.

 

I admit I thought he was a vessel after the main game, but Trespasser made me think otherwise. But I don't remember this line! It sounds familiar, though. Or maybe my memory just is that bad.

 

It's one of like 5 different options you can take at the beginning of the final conversation (it's the stoic option), so it's pretty easy to miss it. It's right after he tells you he's the actual Dread Wolf and not just one of his agents.

[nightscrawl]

^ Thanks. I only played through it one time and was too bummed out by the whole thing to play through it again. I will again... eventually.

[akbogert]

^

It's also worth noting that Mythal actually died (kicking off the whole veil thing), whereas the rest of the Enavuris did not. As for what happens to a living being trapped in the fade, who knows, but aside from slumbering it sounds like Fen'Harel has been alive and well on this side of the veil ever since. 

[Iakus]

 

 
Can't you just look at the credits? But yes, that would be totally awesome if true.

It may in fact be true.  Corrine Kempa is French.

[BansheeOwnage]

 
Can't you just look at the credits? But yes, that would be totally awesome if true.

I suppose, but I'm too lazy to put Inquisition in just to look at them

 

It may in fact be true.  Corrine Kempa is French.

Right, that's what I was getting at. It's fitting she was born in France and has lived in England for a while, since Leliana was born in Orlais and lived in Fereldan for a while. They may have looked for someone with that sort of "in-between" accent purposely.

[akbogert]

^ I was hoping that it would be the same, but I'm playing in French right now and I do not think it's Corrine.

 

I suppose I could just have a bad ear for it, but I think it's someone else.