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Corypheus and the Maker


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#26
ComedicSociopathy

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If nothing else nobody would likely notice if the maker did do subtle things, mostly because its not impressive and flashy... and things that aren't impressive and flashy tends to escape people's notice. Also I will admit I would not surprised if the maker did sent several prophets after andraste but because everyone was so certain he left that they were ignored as mad or killed and brushed into the dustbin of history by the chantries.

 

For a god that abandoned the world because people stopped believing in him you'd think he'd do everything is power to make sure that doesn't happen again. I mean, having a giant hand come out of the sky pointing at your new prophet just seems kind of helpful when it comes to avoiding the problems your talking about.

 

God works in mysterious and likely counterproductive ways I suppose.  


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#27
Ashagar

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I could picture people stating after that that the person was a evil mage trying to lead the faithful astray right before they went all murder death kill on them, especially in southern Thadas where after Andraste's death and before the rise of the southern chantry mobs of people were murdering entire families on the slightest idea that someone in the family might be a mage on a regular basis.


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#28
Hazegurl

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I would say that the fact that he doesn't generally doesn't interfere speaks far better of him than the rest of the gods of the setting, given how monstrous the old gods and the elven god kings were. I mean the maker supposedly a firm believer in free will which if he interfered with the world he would be negatively impacting people's free will and ability to choose. If anything it makes him the only good God in the setting.

Idk.  Sometimes there is evil in doing nothing as well.

 

IMO, if the Maker exists, he sounds like a real douchebag coward. He throws hissy fits because some folks stopped believing in him even while he did nothing to strengthen their belief in him since he wants it so badly.  Then ran off because some Old God priests supposedly broke into his city and messed it up.  Then he only returns cause some random woman asks him to, then splits again when she loses.  Sounds like this Maker just keeps running away whenever he hits some bumps in the road. And no matter how much his believers beg for his return, he sits off somewhere letting them get torn apart by darkspawn hordes. Which I find funny, considering the fact that his believers didn't do any of the things that made him leave in the first place.

 

If I had to choose between the Maker and the Old Gods I would pick the Old Gods too.  They seems more proactive with their followers, teaching magic, talking to them, inviting them up to parties at home.  Why not?


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#29
ComedicSociopathy

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Idk.  Sometimes there is evil in doing nothing as well.

 

IMO, if the Maker exists, he sounds like a real douchebag coward. He throws hissy fits because some folks stopped believing in him even while he did nothing to strengthen their belief in him since he wants it so badly.  Then ran off because some Old God priests supposedly broke into his city and messed it up.  Then he only returns cause some random woman asks him to, then splits again when she loses.  Sounds like this Maker just keeps running away whenever he hits some bumps in the road. And no matter how much his believers beg for his return, he sits off somewhere letting them get torn apart by darkspawn hordes. Which I find funny, considering the fact that his believers didn't do any of the things that made him leave in the first place.

 

To be fair, I'm not sure that the Chantry even believes that the Maker is supposed to be omnibenelovent. Maybe him being an over righteous, grudge holding jerkass is just a accepted part of Andrastian that I missed? 

 

 

If I had to choose between the Maker and the Old Gods I would pick the Old Gods too.  They seems more proactive with their followers, teaching magic, talking to them, inviting them up to parties at home.  Why not?

 

Kind of annoyed that the invite into said parties involves the sacrifice of hundreds of people.

 

Honestly, whats with all the gods in Thedas being arseholes? 


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#30
Ashagar

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Minor point the Tevinter pointedly did believe in the maker even when they worshiped the old gods given they clearly believed he created the world, also apparently for some reason thought the golden city was his seat and they even held a festival in his honor... Of course given its was ancient Tevinter I wouldn't be surprised if that was a good reason for the maker to be pissed off given their tendency sacrificing people to gods at a drop of a hat.... or a feather or a breath of air.

 

In general I think the only reason Andraste even heard of the maker in the first place to pray to him was because the Tevinter did hold festivals in his honor and she was a Tevinter slave before escaping.


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#31
Ariella

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One person's coincidence can be another person's miracle.

It's possible the Maker is acting. A nudge here, a shove there. And amusingly, Solas seems impressed by the concept of a god who does not feel the need to prove his divinity.
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#32
Hanako Ikezawa

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Honestly, whats with all the gods in Thedas being arseholes? 

Well, there is The Stone. So far it hasn't done anything terrible.


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#33
ComedicSociopathy

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One person's coincidence can be another person's miracle.

It's possible the Maker is acting. A nudge here, a shove there. And amusingly, Solas seems impressed by the concept of a god who does not feel the need to prove his divinity.

 

Which is sort of funny when you consider that Chantry seems to take the idea of Maker actually being helpful in Thedas as utter heresy.

 

Their probably just scared of the idea of him finally showing up and correcting them on all their BS. 

 

 

Well, there is The Stone. So far it hasn't done anything terrible.

 

Their not exactly super benevolent, but yeah, I suppose they beaten everyone else on the niceness scale. 


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#34
Hanako Ikezawa

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Their not exactly super benevolent, but yeah, I suppose beaten everyone else on the niceness scale. 

It gives them Lyrium, which is the substance that drives their civilization. 


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#35
ComedicSociopathy

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It gives them Lyrium, which is the substance that drives their civilization. 

 

The question is whether that is just a natural they create or something they do because they want their children to use it for their benefit.

 

Maybe it's both? 



#36
Hazegurl

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I would say that the Stone is probably the best deity in Thedas. Provides shelter, gems, and lyrium without some crazy requirements.  The only problem is that the Stone apparently doesn't like poor people so if you're poor when you die, you're pretty much screwed.



#37
Ariella

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Which is sort of funny when you consider that Chantry seems to take the idea of Maker actually being helpful in Thedas as utter heresy.
 
Their probably just scared of the idea of him finally showing up and correcting them on all on their BS.


Yeah... Actually, I've been playing with this. And my conclusion is they freak.

The IQ can tell Josephine at Skyhold after she asks about the Anchor, that it's possible that the Maker put things in motion so long ago, people just can't see a guiding hand. So in some small ways Bioware leaves the question of Divine Intervention open ended, which I happen to like.

All the other gods or would be gods are still stuck in one way. They're in a linear reality. The Maker, as presented, is outside that. Think the Prophets of DS9. In which case, setting up a domino effect would be easier. He'd know where all the points he needed to nudge were.
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#38
ComedicSociopathy

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I would say that the Stone is probably the best deity in Thedas. Provides shelter, gems, and lyrium without some crazy requirements.  The only problem is that the Stone apparently doesn't like poor people so if you're poor when you die, you're pretty much screwed.

 

I'm sure the dwarves caste system is a bunch of self-serving crap used to justify systematic oppression and allow the nobility to maintain power, and not a religious tenet created or enforced by the Stone. 


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#39
Hanako Ikezawa

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The question is whether that is just a natural they create or something they do because they want their children to use it for their benefit.

 

Maybe it's both? 

Probably both. 

 

I would say that the Stone is probably the best deity in Thedas. Provides shelter, gems, and lyrium without some crazy requirements.  The only problem is that the Stone apparently doesn't like poor people so if you're poor when you die, you're pretty much screwed.

And that is probably fabricated by the rich Dwarves, who alter history all the time to suit their needs.


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#40
ComedicSociopathy

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Yeah... Actually, I've been playing with this. And my conclusion is they freak.

 

Most definitely. They practically wet themselves over the possibility of the Herald being a real prophet of the Maker.

 

 

 

The IQ can tell Josephine at Skyhold after she asks about the Anchor, that it's possible that the Maker put things in motion so long ago, people just can't see a guiding hand. So in some small ways Bioware leaves the question of Divine Intervention open ended, which I happen to like.

All the other gods or would be gods are still stuck in one way. They're in a linear reality. The Maker, as presented, is outside that. Think the Prophets of DS9. In which case, setting up a domino effect would be easier. He'd know where all the points he needed to nudge were.

 

Great, so free will is bunk.

 

Anyhow, the Maker seems to think linearly to me. Early humans of Thedas forget about him and worship Old Gods leading to entrance into Golden City. He supposedly retreats from the World. Maker hears Andraste singing a pretty tune. Returns to the World and starts causing famine in Tevinter. Andraste dies. Maker retreats again. cause and Effect. Seems linear to me. 



#41
Ashagar

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Yeah... Actually, I've been playing with this. And my conclusion is they freak.

The IQ can tell Josephine at Skyhold after she asks about the Anchor, that it's possible that the Maker put things in motion so long ago, people just can't see a guiding hand. So in some small ways Bioware leaves the question of Divine Intervention open ended, which I happen to like.

All the other gods or would be gods are still stuck in one way. They're in a linear reality. The Maker, as presented, is outside that. Think the Prophets of DS9. In which case, setting up a domino effect would be easier. He'd know where all the points he needed to nudge were.

 

Makes sense, another thing that comes to mind that the maker interfering as directly as some of the other deities might have major side effects like the War of Wraith or Eru IIuvatar sinking Númenor. After all this is the being that is supposed to have created the world, that's a on a higher scale of operations than the other gods generally operate on.


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#42
Ariella

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Most definitely. They practically wet themselves over the possibility of the Herald being a real prophet of the Maker.
 
 
 

 
Great, so free will is bunk.
 
Anyhow, the Maker seems to think linearly to me. Early humans of Thedas forget about him and worship Old Gods leading to entrance into Golden City. He supposedly retreats from the World. Maker hears Andraste singing a pretty tune. Returns to the World and starts causing famine in Tevinter. Andraste dies. Maker retreats again. cause and Effect. Seems linear to me.


Nah think more like this:
http://tvtropes.org/...in/BatmanGambit

You have a choice, but one of those choices is so out of character for a person it's next to impossible that they might take it.

Of course this can also go into a huge number of branching contingencies dealing with alternate realities where the same basic outcome is achieved.

Which pretty puts the player in the Maker's seat, in part.

Okay, remember what Dagna says about why dwarves and Tranquil can enchant and non Tranquil humans elves and Qunari can't? It's like that. A linear being is a part of the timeline and can't look outside of it. But someone on the outside of the line could see the whole picture.

Of course everything in the Chant could be bunk and the Maker could still exist, just not the way stupid humans think.

Though I do like the idea of me as the Maker. That has a nice ring to it.
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#43
Ieldra

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Think he is correct in that no Maker exists? Or you think it's a case of an all omnipotent Creator being many steps ahead of a man with bloodthirsty intent?

Remember: he does say he has seen the THRONE of the gods and it was empty. So there was a seat. Way I see it, the Maker has no reason to humor a man like Corypheus, who used brutal methods and followed false promises of god hood to trespass heaven.

What are your thoughts?

My thought is that this was a figure of speech. To me, that's so obvious I didn't even need to think about it. Translate "I have seen the throne of the gods and it was empty" as "I have been to the place where the gods were supposed to be and there was no one there."



#44
nOrio_26

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Because you are not people to the Maker~ 

 

A joke.

 

Maybe it was just an illusion, cause that's Fade.



#45
ShadowLordXII

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Well, let's look at the score thus far and compare it to the Chantry's beliefs and claims:

 

1) Maker made the world and the Fade.

 

Hasn't been disproven or proven so far, so this point remains as is for now.

 

2) Maker created the veil to separate Thedas from the Fade as a result of the "First Sin".

 

As this feat can be directly attributed to Solas/Fen-Harel, this belief can be disproven.

 

3) The Golden City was the Maker's seat and was corrupted by the 7 magisters who then became the first darkspawn.

 

At this point, it's clear that the city already had the blight in it before the magisters set foot there whether it was ever golden or not. Cory asserts multiple times that he and his fellows merely discovered the taint and had it permeate and change their being.

 

Was it ever the Maker's seat? That's uncertain at this time.

 

4) The Blight is the Maker's punishment for the hubris of men and mages.

 

Several pieces of evidence and lore assert that the blight taint has been around possibly since the time of the evanuris. Much is still unknown, but it's pretty clear that at the very least, the taint was a potent substance that had contact with both the Fade and Thedas long before Tevinter ever enslaved the elves.

 

While none of this necessarily means that the Maker isn't real, it does leave a lot of room for doubt in the Chantry's account of events and the beliefs that they created because of said account of events.

 

At the first least, Corypheus appears to be a more reliable source than the Chantry because he was actually physically present in the Golden/Black City itself.



#46
Statare

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I'm sure the dwarves caste system is a bunch of self-serving crap used to justify systematic oppression and allow the nobility to maintain power, and not a religious tenet created or enforced by the Stone. 

 

Except Valta is chosen by the Titan because she is "pure" while the Sha-Brytol are not the chosen of the Titan for some reason, just as the rest of the Dwarves were more or less neglected by an entity that has some anti-blight properties and at least the power to make a huge difference in the ongoing extermination of the Dwarves. Implying the Titans, which may be fundamental to the Dwarven concept of the Stone, have a hierarchy. We also know, from the albeit biased, reports of the Ancient Elves in Trespasser and the Temple of Mythal that the Dwarves prior to whatever the Elves did to them, were "witless" and implied to be servants. But, I'd take that with a grain of salt, but I don't think the Stone or the Titans are going to continue to be as benevolent as we think. Just a hunch from the "pure" concept.

 

Edit: I think the theme of Dragon Age, besides history is a fiction rooted in reality, is that there might be powerful, immortal, powerful figures in a world of magic, but that does not mean they deserve worship. I think the Titans, the Old Gods, the Evanuris, and the Maker (I personally think he is rooted in the entity of the Sun in Elvhen myth) will all turn out to be "real" but complicated enough to wonder if they're really a good thing. 



#47
RoseLawliet

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Ok, the line of thinking that goes "Well if the Maker didn't create the Fade/world/Golden City/throne/etc. then who did?" is... bad. Not only is it an argument from ignorance, but it also presupposes that a "who" is what did the creating. Just because we don't know for sure how these things came to be does not give anyone license to then say "The Maker did it." The proper answer is "We don't know," which should be followed by "and let's find out."

 

A Maker who doesn't interfere is not "the only good god in the setting," but something that sentences the world to suffer things like disease, war, the Blights. A Maker who actually would return once the Chant had been spread to the four corners of Thedas would in fact get more followers if these things went away. These would be the sorts of miracles that wouldn't be easily attributed to chance or natural causes, unlike the earthquakes and drought that helped Andraste beat Tevinter. And even if indisputable miracles were to happen, the most it would do is force people to acknowledge that the Maker exists, not necessarily worship it. After all, this is the being who allegedly cursed the world with the darkspawn because 7 people he didn't invite came to visit him. That's just not cool.


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#48
The_Mac23

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It's not just the 7 people. My line of thinking is that people had turned away from the Maker and worshipped the old gods. Like in the world today, people such as myself who believe in God, we fail to see the miracles that happen daily. We all yearn to see the Red Sea parted, fire from heaven, etc. But I believe, if the Maker exists, that he gave the people of Thedas what they wanted, and that was worship and following of the old gods who sought to overtake his throne.

#49
Gervaise

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The Maker fills the requirement for a First Cause.    Even the elves don't believe their Creators/Evanuris actually created the world; nor it would appear did the ancient human cultures.   The world didn't spontaneously come into being; hence the need for a Maker.   

 

According to one of the older bits of the Chant, which sounds an awful lot like a combination of the beginning of Genesis and the Gospel of St. John; in the beginning there was nothing but silence, then the Maker spoke the first Word and this became "all that might be: Dream and idea, hope and fear.  Endless possibilities."   So effectively the entire history of creation was contained in that first Word.   Basically the Maker is all in all, which actually ties in with Leliana's belief in Origins that the Maker is there in the beauty of the world and she can hear him in the wind in the trees, etc, so never absent but not acting within it since all he intended has already been done.  He is present in everything. 

 

It is after this that the creation story starts to contradict itself.    Thereafter the Maker started creating beings to inhabit this new creation which I take to be the Fade, starting with the spirits, and says to them "To you I give dominion over all that exists.   By your will may all things be done."    So at this point he actually seems to have stated that he is not going to get involved and has given over the running of his creation to the spirits.    Then when the spirits do nothing but standing around happily praising him, he thinks better of it and decides to create a more permanent realm, Thedas, and creatures within it with the ambition to do something creative with it.     It says he set the two realms apart but doesn't actually say there was a Veil and the stories in the ancient library suggest that the two were both separate and yet conjoined.    

 

From then on the Maker acts more like the other gods that appear in the story.   He watches to see what wonders his children will create.    Gets angry when his firstborn, the spirits, start doing something and actually try and take dominion over all that exists (he presumably forgot to mention to them that would only apply to the Fade).    He casts the presumptuous spirits into the earth simply for daring to try and be gods to the earthly creatures because this actually occurs before they give Tevinter the secrets of darkest magic.    According to the Chant the human tribes had returned to worship of the Maker but constantly warred among themselves and one king wanting to get an edge over the others listens to the dreamer, Thalsian, and starts making burnt offerings of oxen and horses (again sounds more like our Old Testament) in return for the knowledge and power to defeat his enemies.    This is said to come from a demon of the Fade but if it was the old gods beneath the earth speaking then they are no longer in the Fade.    (As I say the Chant is full of contradictions).    The king had previously asked the Maker for signs of victory by getting his Oracles to consult the stars, drink blood of unclean beasts (it suggests wyverns) in order to seek counsel from the Maker.   So it would seem that the notion the ancient tribes had of the Maker was one where they had to perform strange rituals in order to get his attention and in this case he did respond but told the king that "no victory was his to claim".    Which is why, since the king wouldn't take no for an answer, he turned elsewhere for advice.    

 

Still it is clear from this that the Maker didn't turn away from mankind for their initial worship of the old gods because he apparently still kept up a dialogue after they had been imprisoned beneath the earth.    When the advice of the demon makes the first king stronger than his rivals who still worship the Maker and the Maker doesn't intervene to prevent the death toil from rising, when faced with almost certain defeat, the last king turns in desperation to a similar source of advice to his rival.     This gives him the edge in battle and enables him to resist his enemy.      It does seem odd that this king at least was perfectly willing to worship the Maker but didn't really see the point of continuing to do so when the Maker seemed willing to let him and his people perish, yet the Maker failed to intervene in this case but apparently took up the cause of Andraste.    Did Damertes just not have a very good singing voice?

 

So I'm tending towards the idea that, just as was always maintained by the writers, we will never be given conclusive proof of the Maker's existence and anything that appears in the myths and legends of the people of Thedas says more about their faith and beliefs and reflects a memory of actual events that occurred in the past that had nothing to do with activity by the Maker.     For example, ancient gods were imprisoned at some point, but not by the Maker but other more powerful creatures who were regarded as gods by their own followers.    Most "gods" within Thedas were probably spirits that either spoke from the Fade or took more tangible form in the material world.      The Golden/Black City has less to do with the Maker and more to do with an ancient city that once existed in both the Fade and the material world and was a seat for the gods.  (I'm going with Arlathan at the moment)   When the Veil was created it shattered and the bit trapped within the Fade was closed off to visitors.   A vision of Drakon showed it to have 7 gates.     This would correspond to one for each old god.    There is something bad there; we were told back in Origins that even powerful demons avoid it.     I believe that whatever the truth is about the Black City, this has more to do with the actions of Fen'Harel than the Maker. 

 

According to the memory of his servant we find in the Fade, Corypheus seemed to have been becoming increasingly desperate because he was cutting himself ever more frequently, presumably to try and contact Dumat and getting no answer.   In JoH there seems to have been a similar panic among the followers of Razikale.  The assault was originally to try and find out why this was.     Corypheus seemed convinced that getting to the Black City will confer godhood upon him; may be there is a source of power there or may be simply the fact he could get there and not be coughed back out again would have been a sufficiently impressive deed to merit godhood.     The fact that he kidnapped the Divine and used her as part of a sacrifice to achieve his aims would suggest that he realised he needed to undermine the current dominant faith in Thedas to achieve his aims.   The Chantrys (both Black and White) believe the Golden City was once the seat of the Maker, so it follows if you can prove it empty and the Maker takes no action, you have usurped his place.      It doesn't prove conclusively there is no Maker, simply that he is not getting himself involved and so there is little point in appealing to him for help.



#50
Cobra's_back

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Think he is correct in that no Maker exists? Or you think it's a case of an all omnipotent Creator being many steps ahead of a man with bloodthirsty intent?

Remember: he does say he has seen the THRONE of the gods and it was empty. So there was a seat. Way I see it, the Maker has no reason to humor a man like Corypheus, who used brutal methods and followed false promises of god hood to trespass heaven.

What are your thoughts?

Why would the maker be there? I think something else is going on. For all we know the maker is a Titan. That doesn't mean their maker is the unseen mover.