687 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

I do support House's request to have a trailer including both the male and the female PCs. I participated in a thread for about 6 months requesting a trailer for the female IQ. Some of the folks here I debated with, and they all gave me food for thought. I may not have always agreed, but the folks I debated with really made me think about why I felt the way I did. Good debates all around. <waves to TalisFox>

While this is important to me, at this point I'd rather they keep the new ME:A PC gender neutral. My main thing these days is that I'd like to see someone that isn't white. It can be done by using something as simple as lingering shot of a hand. Men can have delicate hands and women can have large ones, so that would work for me.

I do think there needs to be some more representation of a female PC in RPGs that allow for customized characters. We're getting there though. However, a quick google search told me that 54% of Latino gamers are more willing to buy a game on the first day. Enough with the "white as default" on PCs in games that have a diverse mix of ethnicities (like the ME series. Not talking about TW3.) FB is a beautiful engine, so I think BioWare should show it off.

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather see a PC that wasn't a white guy. Male or female; it doesn't make a ton of difference to me. I would prefer a lady, but in a setting where there is such a mix of backgrounds, I would actually be happier if they showed someone that wasn't white for once.

Just my two creds.

 

The push for ethnic concerns just ends up annoying me, personally. That was the point of the whole "Not Your Shield" thing going on with GamerGate. There are a lot of minorities who resent Social Justice more than this stuff about white game characters. Specifically because it's always white liberals who step in and try to speak for everyone. That's more annoying AND racist than whatever intent is going on about games. Because it's motivated from a mindset that believes minorities don't have any voice or power of their own, and need people to speak for them.

[Dread-Reaper]

That would mean games full of Gary Stu characters though. I'd personally like developers use bit of their imagination, you should be able to create characters that aren't you after all. I don't think it's problem if game about polish folklore doesn't have PoC characters in it, I doubt many African nor Asian folklores would have white characters either, but it becomes problem when it's norm to have straight white male characters as protagonist and it's considered risky to stray away from that. It shouldn't be norm and it shouldn't be risky to do something else.

I'm sure everyone would love for developers to use their imagination, but most developers usually write characters they're comfortable with. When they try to write characters with a certain background that they ignorant, the character usually ends up being stereotypical, which is even more boring than Gary Stu characters.

[The Heretic of Time]

How does their whining ruin the fun? The whining of the Gamergate guys didn't ruin my fun. Is feminist whining extra-potent?

 

More like extra-present. And unlike gamergate whining, feminist whining is actually being taken seriously and given publicity by the gaming press.

[Dread-Reaper]

And how much of that is cellphone and facebook games?

Don't forget the many. many MMOs and MOBAs out there.

[SnakeCode]

Nice dodge. I'm just refuting your point that people other than straight white males are the 'minority'. I haven't said anything about what other people worry about.

 

No worries. I'm not offended, though. But, honestly, it takes an absurd amount of privilege to have the luxury of posting on a gaming forum in the first place. First world problems, right? It takes even more privilege to complain about people criticizing developers for not representing them in games. White male privilege, right?

 

I wouldn't know, apparently (straight) white male privilege is totally invisible and undetectable to those that have it.

[Panda]

I'm sure everyone would love for developers to use their imagination, but most developers usually write characters they're comfortable with. When they try to write characters with a certain background that they ignorant, the character usually ends up being stereotypical, which is even more boring than Gary Stu characters.

 

If you think of writers they must create lot of characters, some alien and elven races there as well. So they should have ability to make something that they aren't themselves work as well, otherwise their abilities to write is pretty limited.

[von uber]

I wouldn't know, apparently (straight) white male privilege is totally invisible and undetectable to those that have it.

 

So it seems.

[maia0407]

And how much of that is cellphone and facebook games?

Don't know. I'm having a hard time finding those numbers. I doubt everyone falls strictly into mobile or console/pc gamer. By that I mean, sometimes I play a mobile game while waiting at the doctors office. While at home, though, I play my console games. I'm betting the majority of console/pc gamers do the same.

[The Heretic of Time]

I'm sure everyone would love for developers to use their imagination, but most developers usually write characters they're comfortable with. When they try to write characters with a certain background that they ignorant, the character usually ends up being stereotypical, which is even more boring than Gary Stu characters.

 

Not to mention that in those situations, the political correct whiners would cry even louder.

Hell, Tomb Raider has gotten plenty of flack because Lara Croft was (until recently) designed and written by men.

Having female protagonists apparently isn't enough. They need to be written by women as well. Because men might get ti wrong and that apparently is worse than not having female protagonists at all.

Same thing for colored protagonists written by whites.

[Grieving Natashina]

The push for ethnic concerns just ends up annoying me, personally. That was the point of the whole "Not Your Shield" thing going on with GamerGate. There are a lot of minorities who resent Social Justice more than this stuff about white game characters. Specifically because it's always white liberals who step in and try to speak for everyone. That's more annoying AND racist than whatever intent is going on about games. Because it's motivated from a mindset that believes minorities don't have any voice or power of their own, and need people to speak for them.

Heya Street.

I'm not trying to speak for "everyone." I put up the link because I thought it was interesting. If I had any sort of agenda, I'd just say so.

I said this before and I'll say it again: I'm not asking for this for the sake of social justice. I'm not asking for it for any sort of politics or ethics.

I'm bored. Bored with seeing the same old thing over and over and over again. I want characters that don't look like the 30-something white guy. As a consumer, I want to see something different. For me, this isn't about being politically correct or making someone else happy. Show me something different.

There has been characters that have looked like Drake or like Sheploo all over the place for over a decade. There is nothing wrong with that, (Wolfenstein was awesome and the PC was a blonde version of 30-something white guy. Seriously, play it if you love a good shooter) but if there is a setting where having someone not-white as a customizable PC makes sense, I would like to see it. If I don't see it, I won't be wailing and gnashing my teeth. I'll shrug and go on with life. It would be nice, but sometimes a game is just a game.

I try to pick my battles. I would enjoy having a trailer like House suggested, or having someone non-white. That would be nice. That isn't my flag to wave though. I've got other things to worry about. Like puppies. Ever try to get through the chewing phase with a puppy?

Edit: I know it's OT, but I have to share. Meet Wilbur:

Spoiler

[Dread-Reaper]

If you think of writers they must create lot of characters, some alien and elven races there as well. So they should have ability to make something that they aren't themselves work as well, otherwise their abilities to write is pretty limited.

I find it easier to write about things without set cultures and lingo, as there's no expectations of them.

[maia0407]

I wouldn't know, apparently (straight) white male privilege is totally invisible and undetectable to those that have it.

 

Baloney. I'm aware of my white privilege. Privilege isn't invisible; it's just hard to see outside your own perspective. Being aware of your own privilege just takes a bit of effort to see beyond yourself.

[slimgrin]

Using the word transgender to make jokes pretty much sucks.

What if the joke is funny?

[Dread-Reaper]

Baloney. I'm aware of my white privilege. Privilege isn't invisible; it's just hard to see outside your own perspective. Being aware of your own privilege just takes a bit of effort to see beyond yourself.

What's the benefit of being aware of one's "privilege"? 

[Pasquale1234]

I'm bored. Bored with seeing the same old thing over and over and over again. I want characters that don't look like the 30-something white guy. As a consumer, I want to see something different. For me, this isn't about being politically correct or making someone else happy. Show me something different.

I see a lot of people talk about wanting game worlds to look more alive, more lived-in, more realistic, etc. - yet there seems to be some presumption that wanting to see broader representation has something to do with "PC" or "SJW" concerns.

Nope, at least not for me. I just think (most) game worlds feel more immersive when the population is more diverse. Some female turians and salarians going about their business on the Citadel would have been very helpful in that vein, imho.

[Kierro Ren]

This discussion always devolves into a clusterfuck, I'm honestly surprised that the mods have cracked down on hard these sort of threads since they always end up becoming a mess. People seem incapable of discussing things like adults. 

 

The force is strong with this one... sadly, so many others can't sense it.

[The Heretic of Time]

Baloney. I'm aware of my white privilege. Privilege isn't invisible; it's just hard to see outside your own perspective. Being aware of your own privilege just takes a bit of effort to see beyond yourself.

 

Yet you aren't aware of your female privilege.

 

Somehow average white middle-class feminist girls refuse to see that they are among the most privileged groups in the world. Far more so than middle-class or lower-class white guys, who are more and more falling behind.

[Grieving Natashina]

I see a lot of people talk about wanting game worlds to look more alive, more lived-in, more realistic, etc. - yet there seems to be some presumption that wanting to see broader representation of minorities has something to do with "PC" or "SJW" concerns.
Nope, at least not for me. I just think (most) game worlds feel more immersive when the population is more diverse.

I agree, except for the bolded. Some of the most important characters in the ME series weren't white. The population of the ME series is wonderfully diverse. I would like to see more of that for the trailer for ME:A PC. I will say seeing one more white guy isn't going to change that for me. It would be mild disappointment at the most. Even if their trailer-ready PC is the same old thing, as a fan of ME I know that isn't going to reflect on how BW handles diversity in the game itself.

Edit: Forgive me for the confusion, as I'm really sick at the moment. Having a diverse cast is nice, but as long as it fits the world it came from. I'm very opposed to any sort of "token" anything. Plenty of games I've played don't have a very diverse world, but they were still awesome for me nevertheless (see: the majority of FF games.)

It's a nice to have thing, not a "give me this now" thing. To Hades with gender or race; I want to see a trailer showing off that armor in further detail.

Edit: And we're back to talking about privilege. <sigh> Thats my cue to bounce. I'm a feminist, but I think tossing around "privilege" at the drop of a hat is silly. Can't a conversation about preferences come up without SJW or "privileged white man" being tossed around like toliet paper? Aren't most of us legal adults in our various countries?

In any case, try to have fun and lighten up a little.

[N7M]

So it seems.

 

Another irony is the "SJW" phantom some here are creating and forming their argument against is a direct reflection of the activism of the posters themselves.  

[maia0407]

What's the benefit of being aware of one's "privilege"? 

One glaringly obvious benefit is that you are more likely to believe people without privilege when they talk about their day to day experiences with discrimination. You are also more likely to support efforts to make the playing field more equal for all people. You are also more likely to recognize when you are acting like a privileged asshat.

[Mr.House]

Not to mention that in those situations, the political correct whiners would cry even louder.

Hell, Tomb Raider has gotten plenty of flack because Lara Croft was (until recently) designed and written by men.

Having female protagonists apparently isn't enough. They need to be written by women as well. Because men might get ti wrong and that apparently is worse than not having female protagonists at all.

Same thing for colored protagonists written by whites.

To be fair, we do have Other M which IS something to fear happening to any series with a female protag.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Baloney. I'm aware of my white privilege. Privilege isn't invisible; it's just hard to see outside your own perspective. Being aware of your own privilege just takes a bit of effort to see beyond yourself.

It takes the capacity to swallow a tremendous amount of codswallop.

If everything is as you say, shouldn't the market itself be driving video games in exactly the direction you envision? Or do you believe that developers have been passing up the chance at increasing market share and sales just to preserve a status quo rooted in white patriarchy?

[maia0407]

Yet you aren't aware of your female privilege.

 

Somehow average white middle-class feminist girls refuse to see that they are among the most privileged groups in the world. Far more so than middle-class or lower-class white guys, who are more and more falling behind.

That's not 'female' privilege though. That would be class or economic privilege.

[Dread-Reaper]

One glaringly obvious benefit is that you are more likely to believe people without privilege when they talk about their day to day experiences with discrimination. You are also more likely to support efforts to make the playing field more equal for all people. You are also more likely to recognize when you are acting like a privileged asshat.

How does being aware of my "privilege" make more likely to believe a person's experience with discrimination? Also, aren't there more dire issues in the world than representation in the media? 

[Red of Rivia]

I've said this before, but I'm a minority - and I don't care about Witcher's setting not "catering" to my "race". For heaven's sake, the places have names like "Nilfgaard" and "Hengfors". I'd be annoyed if saw someone Asian in it like myself, for example (without good story reasons at least). It'd just be contrived and ruin my immersion.

 

I'll take a sincere creation over that. Thanks. I might be a certain "race", but I'm also just a plain human with a low tolerance for bullshit.

I lived in Eastern Europe half of my life and I just saw an ''asian'' and a ''black'' person when I went to Brazil. It is completely acceptable not to have black guys in The Witcher and believe it is not a question of racism, but of universe. The expansion, Hearts of Stone, had appeared some guys similar or inspired in Middle East, and has some from ''Asia'', Haak people which based on Mongols, but it does not matter, since the game is centered in that region, ''the europe'' and I fully agree with you. However, Sapkowski understands what is racism, so much that The Witcher, the books, are based on World War II that somehow he witnessed.