687 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

The Qunari hair fiasco was by far one of the most entertaining things to come out of DA3.

[rashie]

Aww, but I liked Biowares 50 ways to make a baldie.

What will we all do without 15 variations of buzzcuts? Or the lady haircuts with side burns for that matter.

[Hazegurl]

More hair and we can customize the bodies?!

 

Yeah I'm really in the dark about FO4. lol!

[straykat]

The Qunari hair fiasco was by far one of the most entertaining things to come out of DA3.

 

What's the Qunari hair fiasco? I can barely look at them in the CC.

[Sylvius the Mad]

There's no such thing as a true blank slate in a video game. Not even the Warden could qualify.

The Warden isn't even close.  I complained about this extensively during DAO's development.  As soon as BioWare announced the origins feature, I knew we'd just be choosing among 6 different straightjackets.

 

NWN has a pretty good blank slate.  I think KotOR does, too, but people rarely agree with me.

 

The early Ultima games certainly did.  Questron.  Wizardry.  Might & Magic.  Bard's Tale 1-3.  The TES games are pretty good at it, too (especially Arena).

 

MMORPGs tend to offer blank slate characters.

[Jaison1986]

The Warden isn't even close.  I complained about this extensively during DAO's development.  As soon as BioWare announced the origins feature, I knew we'd just be choosing among 6 different straightjackets.

 

NWN has a pretty good blank slate.  I think KotOR does, too, but people rarely agree with me.

 

The early Ultima games certainly did.  Questron.  Wizardry.  Might & Magic.  Bard's Tale 1-3.  The TES games are pretty good at it, too (especially Arena).

 

MMORPGs tend to offer blank slate characters.

 

Why blank slates anyway? It's not like you can't roleplay if you don't have them.

[Panda]

What's the Qunari hair fiasco? I can barely look at them in the CC.

 

Lack of hairstyles and having only bad hairstyles. Not taste-wise though they are that too, but designing wise as well. If I remember right there is 4 hairstyles for female qunari and 5 for male in total, the are tied up to horn options so every horn option don't have every hairstyle. Designing flaws they have are things like bald spot top of the head and some hair being different color and texture, bun-hairstyle has those. They are even poorer quality than other hairstyles in the game meaning like 360p compared to 720p or sth. And it's quite sad considering how race card of qunari has extremely long flowing hair and so qunari statues seem to have as well and the reality in the game is like opposite of that.

[Angry_Elcor]

Just making sure BSN is still debating important details that determine the fundamental quality of a game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Why blank slates anyway? It's not like you can't roleplay if you don't have them.

How do you roleplay a character without detailed knowledge of that character's mental state?

[Jaison1986]

How do you roleplay a character without detailed knowledge of that character's mental state?

 

I simply do. I make up as I go.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I simply do. I make up as I go.

How do you ensure consistency across decisions?

 

But also, a blank slate dramatically increases replayability.  If there's only one character I can play, why play it more than once?

[In Exile]

Anyone consider that maybe, just maybe we see an abundance of straight white male characters starring in games because devs have complete creative freedom over such a character? That they can do whatever they want with a straight white guy and everyone won't flip their lid?

When creating a female protagonist, they have to adhere to an arbitrary checklist of things they can't do with her, otherwise it's "problematic."

She has to be "strong"
She can't be too attractive, and definitely not sexualised
She can't be too ugly either
She can't be vulnerable
She can't be placed in compromising positions, especially with men
She can't be inept
She can't be upstaged by a man at any point
She can't be mentally deficient in any way

The list goes on and on.

White male protagonists can be all of this and so much more, they can be cowardly, comically inept, lecherous, insane, insecure, a drunk etc. Why? Because male characters aren't expected to represent their entire gender, they are individuals, and are treated as such. They can be the butt of jokes, or ridiculed morons and it isn't taken as "they're taking a shot at all white guys." As long as devs are afraid to make women/LGBT characters because of the reaction they usually receive from the people who WANT their inclusion, they are going to stay with what's safe. They can make a Trevor Phillips or a Guybrush Threepwood and not be demonised for it. Imagine the reaction to a female counterpart to either of those two.

This argument would have some merit if there was real variance in male protagonists. But there isn't. They keep to a checklist as much as women.

[Iakus]

 

NWN has a pretty good blank slate.  I think KotOR does, too, but people rarely agree with me.

 

Kotor does.  THough it kinda cheats at it.

 

I mean, you have a definite past and all.  You just don't remember it.  

[9TailsFox]

This argument would have some merit if there was real variance in male protagonists. But there isn't. They keep to a checklist as much as women.

Look at 2 guy from left.

Now look at this did you read idiot outcry on gamespot. Please tell me how this is not the same.

 

 

Or this Alpha protocol where main protagonist is tied to the table, and rape was implied if it was female everyone would go nuts.

You can do anything you want with male character because we don't care we are not oversensitive, I will never look so sexy as that guy and it's fine it's a video game fantasy (pun intended) not reality. You can't make female character as you want because oversensitive idiots bitc...hing left and right. Like Bayonetta is oversexualized so what deal with it, and don't play game it's not made for you.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Kotor does.  THough it kinda cheats at it.

 

I mean, you have a definite past and all.  You just don't remember it.  

So it's not relevant to the character.  The past that is relevant is the one you remember, and that one we get to define entirely ourselves.  We get to be the unreliable narrator; it's a brilliant design.

 

DA2 arguably allows this as well through its unreliable narrator, but doing so requires we ignore a much larger portion of the game's content.

[Fredward]

Look at 2 guy from left.

Now look at this did you read idiot outcry on gamespot. Please tell me how this is not the same.

 

 

Or this Alpha protocol where main protagonist is tied to the table, and rape was implied if it was female everyone would go nuts.

 

You can do anything you want with male character because we don't care we are not oversensitive, I will never look so sexy as that guy and it's fine it's a video game fantasy (pun intended) not reality. You can't make female character as you want because oversensitive idiots bitc...hing left and right. Like Bayonetta is oversexualized so what deal with it, and don't play game it's not made for you.

 

I know there's a guy who said that when a guy isn't wearing a shirt or has bulging muscles it isn't done for the sake of women, it's done for men. Because we like muscles and stuff, makes us feel strong and that such male sexualization in the media often comes with active/dangerous characters. Whereas female sexuality has generally been portrayed as passive.

 

Mind you this isn't what I'm  saying, I'm parroting the theorizer. He (she?) has a point but I also think that's changing. In some spheres anyway. And I always had more of a problem with the passive element and not the sexualization element. My English teacher showed us some adds once about what it would look like if they had men pose like women in ads, I can't find everything she did but here are some:

 

N[entirely]SFW btw:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Link for one more.

 

 

And I'm 98% sure you can say no to SIE. And people did complain about it because it is squiggly.

 

I look it at like this.  Let's say you love Japanese food. A five star Japanese restaurant opens up in your area.  You hear a ton of great things about it, the food is good, the place is clean, everyone who eats there loves it.  You check out the menu and it has plenty of food you're interested in trying.  BUT you don't know whether or not the chef is Japanese.  So you refuse to eat there based on not knowing the race of the chef.  This is not a contributor.  That is your deal breaker.  You have chosen to ignore all other factors because of one detail. Now if the restaurant was a 3 1/2 star, but the place was clean, people still really like the food but it isn't five star dining, you look on the menu and see only one or two things you like, AND the chef isn't Japanese. Then the race of the chef is a contributing factor in your choice to not eat there.

 

But what if you're not sure you like Japanese food? From this perspective I already know I like Japanese food and I'm letting one detail stop me from trying a new kind of Japanese food. But if I've never tried Japense food and honestly never even put much thought into the idea that I might like it if I tried it (maybe because there's no ads for Japanese food so the idea was never inserted into my brain to gestate in the first place) but if I did I would love it.

 

Or they are following their own politics, just not yours.  But it's a moot point considering the fact that we already know you can play a female in a BW game. This is more about flag waving demands from the fan base at this point. The ME series has been out for years, if female gamers still don't know  they can play a woman already then I doubt a trailer is enough to give them a brain.

 And who actually thinks a trailer tells them everything they need to know about  game anyway?

 

They are [presumably] following my politics because of the reasons you mentioned. They just don't always put their money where there mouth is as much as I would like. And it isn't for attracting female gamers, it's for attracting women who might never have become gamers in the first place where this one last detail might be enough to get them to join.

 

It depends. Does the company want to add the new stuff or are they simply adding it to maintain a public image and to avoid social backlash?  

 

Are they maintaining status quo because they want to maintain public image and avoid social backlash? ~shrug~ We don't know the answer to these questions.

 

What I do  know is that when a company does add more representation it is inevitably because they must have been bullied by vocal minorities. It's never because they were convinced or decided it might be in their fiscal interest to do so.

 

1. I acknowledge the affect, but I don't acknowledge your right to judge for others, what is the "right" point of view and morals, because that is ... again... pushing your own agenda and subjective point of view and morals on others. 

 

Eg. there is nothing wrong with that effect, except when it is for something you don't personally like.

 

Me neither! Where we go our separate way on this issue seems to be that I consider shaping people's brains as children and them never getting either the opportunity or the interest to do so part of that.

 

2. No, I don't disagree with that... I disagree with people thinking they have found the one and only true way of living and thinking and wanting to make others conform to these subjective ideals. 

 

There is a huuuuge difference between: 

A: I like x because so and so... and other people can take it or leave it. 

B: Everyone should conform to x, the industry should do x, if you don't do x, then you are y... 

 

Personally I think religion is for borderline nutjobs... I don't ring doorbells to inform people they are living their life wrong. I don't stand myself up in the street with a sign, saying everyone should think like that, but if people ask me about my oppinion I give it and if people publicly state that religion is the best thing ever (seek feedback) I will give them my oppinion.

 

Me too! But if I look on the one hand and I see representation and I look on the other hand and I see 'traditional' media only one is guilty of doing this. When I argue for representation it isn't for one idea of what is correct to supplant and eliminate another, for one to be there 'instead of' but rather for both options to have some space. I suppose the very argument that there should be more options on display rather than less is still doing this but that's where I draw the line, I mean there's no alternative. Forwarding anything is doing this.

 

If you look at the history of mass communication it's only recently that more elements have been made available. For a really long time the media and before that any kind of public discourse presented one way of being: be white, be straight, be a man, have a wang. That isn't the kind of place I want to live. There isn't one way to be human, it isn't the 'correct' way. The majority of the media shouldn't be broadcasting that a niche part of humanity is the only part that matters.

 

4. Yes... if that is why they are doing it and not just due to... well, lets call it as it is, harassment from a vocal minority, who are then given an undemocratic and demographically disproportionate big voice, which ironically is exactly committing an x'ism. 

 

See my comment to Hazegurl about this. People too often decide that a dev can't  change their mind because they [the consumer] haven't. They've already made up their mind and the only way the narrative makes sense is if the developer was 'forced' to agree with the vocal minority.

 

5. I think we agree most of the way actually... just line drawing and methods we disagree on.

 

Well, you don't have to buy those games and you do have to be pretty stupid to actually mistake any ingame character or society with reality... I mean just because I play a game with smurfs, does not mean I believe everyone are smurfs and even if someone thought that for a second the illusion would only last until confronted with reality. 

 

And what about games for people who think you need a wang to be a hero or just like games where that is the case? 

 

Idiots obviously, but are we really so far pressed we can't allow them, or any subniche, to have their games? 

 

Are we gonna be inclusive by excluding people?

 

You mean like Twitcher? I don't have an issue with it. I might roll my eyes at the guy who wrote it for creating another grizzly white man women fawn over for reasons that are utterly inexplicable to me but it's Geralt's story. They aren't stating that they're creating a narrative of human heroism in general, you don't make your own character, you're not roleplaying yourself (if you're into self-inserts) you're playing Geralt. And his specific story requires that he have a wang. And that's fine.

 

Carrying this on to the next point.

 

6. But some people here say that the industry should change. SMS2016 certainly does nothing to include women. It's actually scaring them away (it's not just that it isn't for them)... They really should change or quit...

 

Don't care. There's a game called Coming Out on Top wherein which gay men have gay sex. There is not one straight sex to be had. Is it discriminating against straight people? Nay. And not just because it's a minority thing, you can totally be a minority that's into excluding people it's because it's marketed as a gay dating sim. It makes no claims of reflecting a broader humanity.

 

Now IF COOT (or SMS2016) grew to encompass the majority of media, if I turned on the tv and all I saw was gay couples with their white picket fence and 2.5 kids and their Labrador I would object (after an intial period of glee because FINALLY!) because it is not fair  it is not fair to pretend like one aspect of humanity, one way of being is the only one that matters.

[9TailsFox]

I know there's a guy who said that when a guy isn't wearing a shirt or has bulging muscles it isn't done for the sake of women, it's done for men. Because we like muscles and stuff, makes us feel strong and that such male sexualization in the media often comes with active/dangerous characters. Whereas female sexuality has generally been portrayed as passive.

 

Mind you this isn't what I'm  saying, I'm parroting the theorizer. He (she?) has a point but I also think that's changing. In some spheres anyway. And I always had more of a problem with the passive element and not the sexualization element. My English teacher showed us some adds once about what it would look like if they had men pose like women in ads, I can't find everything she did but here are some:

 

N[entirely]SFW btw:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Link for one more.

 

 

And I'm 98% sure you can say no to SIE. And people did complain about it because it is squiggly.

 

I knew someone use something like this. it's same bs like wage gap. and other feminist bs. Where is no such think as equality male sexualization and female sexualization is not the same. Male and female like different aspects of body. Show me one female who honestly like your picture. What you showing is not sexualization of male it's dressing businessman in farmer clothes and saying it's a clown.

 

this is male sexualization.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

[Fredward]

I knew someone use something like this. it's same bs like wage gap. and other feminist bs. Where is no such think as equality male sexualization and female sexualization is not the same. Male and female like different aspects of body. Show me one female who honestly like your picture. What you showing is not sexualization of male it's dressing businessman in farmer clothes and saying it's a clown.

 

this is male sexualization.

 

That wasn't the point of the pictures. The point of the pictures was how ridiculous men looked making those poses yet how it's not considered ridiculous when women do it.

[Hazegurl]

That wasn't the point of the pictures. The point of the pictures was how ridiculous men looked making those poses yet how it's not considered ridiculous when women do it.

You miss the entire point.  The point is that those types of poses and outfits appeal to a lot of straight men sexually.  That pic you posted does NOT appeal to straight women sexually.  Maybe there is the odd person who may like it, but that pic is not made to appeal to women.

 

Here's a vid calling out the 'hoopla' that was made over Justin beiber's exposed genitals. 

[Fredward]

You miss the entire point.  The point is that those types of poses and outfits appeal to a lot of straight men sexually.  That pic you posted does NOT appeal to straight women sexually.  Maybe there is the odd person who may like it, but that pic is not made to appeal to women.

 

I am indeed missing the point since I wasn't trying to say women find that attractive and I don't care whether or not they do, it was to point out that representations of male sexuality are often active [appeals to both] whereas representations of female sexuality is often passive [tends to appeal to men before women]. That was basically the extent of my point. Tangential yes but this whole thread of the conversation is tangential.

 

[Hazegurl]

@Fredward, I was gonna write some lengthy reply but this might go on forever. So I'll just say that we both see things differently and we'll always disagree on these topics. So let's call it quits and just agree to disagree.

[In Exile]

Look at 2 guy from left.

 

Now look at this did you read idiot outcry on gamespot. Please tell me how this is not the same.

 

Or this Alpha protocol where main protagonist is tied to the table, and rape was implied if it was female everyone would go nuts.

 

You can do anything you want with male character because we don't care we are not oversensitive, I will never look so sexy as that guy and it's fine it's a video game fantasy (pun intended) not reality. You can't make female character as you want because oversensitive idiots bitc...hing left and right. Like Bayonetta is oversexualized so what deal with it, and don't play game it's not made for you.

 

I don't know what you're on about here. All I said was that there isn't a great deal of variance in how men are portrayed in video games. Showing a bunch of pretty similar looking J-pop models isn't exactly proving the point there's so much variance. 

 

But beyond that, there's a fair amount of sexism targeted at men. If you, y'know, ever at any point in time ever actually read anything about feminism, you'd see a lot is written on how e.g. men being sexually assaulted isn't taken seriously exactly for the same reason that women being sexually assaulted isn't taken seriously. You're missing the point by making it. 

[Lady Artifice]

Or this Alpha protocol where main protagonist is tied to the table, and rape was implied if it was female everyone would go nuts.

 

You don't have to be sensitive to consider rape a bad thing, whichever sex the victim happens to be. In fact, the unfairness and double standard towards men when it comes to portrayals of rape in fiction is a common enough feminist topic. 

[9TailsFox]

You don't have to be sensitive to consider rape a bad thing, whichever sex the victim happens to be. In fact, the unfairness and double standard towards men when it comes to portrayals of rape in fiction is a common enough feminist topic. 

No one telling rape is good, well some could argue, man like sex more than women and man don't have consequences like pregnancy. And I dob't many male didn't like SIE "romance" in Alpha protocol. The problem is portrayal of stuff they want remove rape entirely like in DA:O city elf story, or this and this how about we remove murder we all agree murder is bad, than slavery I think you agree it's bad. If you remove stuff like this. Without slavery DA setting would fall.

[9TailsFox]

I don't know what you're on about here. All I said was that there isn't a great deal of variance in how men are portrayed in video games. Showing a bunch of pretty similar looking J-pop models isn't exactly proving the point there's so much variance. 

 

But beyond that, there's a fair amount of sexism targeted at men. If you, y'know, ever at any point in time ever actually read anything about feminism, you'd see a lot is written on how e.g. men being sexually assaulted isn't taken seriously exactly for the same reason that women being sexually assaulted isn't taken seriously. You're missing the point by making it. 

You joking yes? Or you just play less than 10 games. Ok you want not pretty boy pop band. Same game 3 male character great variance.