687 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Chronoid might be the only Qunari player I like. Not that that's related. lol

 

He just can't be appeased about ME3. I find it funny.

[AresKeith]

Good glad we settled that I am right. 

 

If that's what makes you feel better with your wrong right

[Il Divo]

 

Right after you tell me about how much the industry isn't being plagued by the PC culture of late. 

 

Who said it isn't? I'm just not butt hurt about it. The PC culture is right there with every other group on the internet trying to get their way. They're not exactly unique in that regard. I'd have to obliterate the entire internet if I wanted to cut out all the people the industry is plagued by, every fan on here included.

[von uber]

Cherry picking....a few....

 

The dude gave you a plethora of youtube links and sources.  And you qualify that as cherry picking? What does this guy have to do to satiate you?  List every single website on the internet that involves gender equality/inequality? 

 

5 seconds on google:

 

It is estimated that of all women killed globally in 2012, almost half were killed by intimate partners or family members, compared to less than six per cent of men killed in the same year.

 

And you are telling me that men suffer equally? Really?

 

http://www.unwomen.o...cts-and-figures

 

Let me guess - the UN has an 'agenda'.

[AresKeith]

Who said it isn't? I'm just not butt hurt about it. The PC culture is right there with every other group on the internet trying to get their way. They're not exactly unique in that regard. I'd have to obliterate the entire internet if I wanted to cut out all the people the industry is plagued by, every fan on here included.

 

Sadly that might not be a bad thing at this point lol

[SnakeCode]

Small thing to pint out here - I know it seems hard to grasp sometimes, but the USA is not the world. Cherry picking a few studies that (from the look of it are very selective) that imply that men suffer equally is a tad disingenuous, especially given the wealth of evidence that demonstrates the opposite.

Mind you, this is not the place to argue about it.

 

What i don't get is how vociferous people are when it comes to the fact that women just mind have equal representation in computer games. It's mind boggling (on both sides, but as far as I can tell it tends be only one who deal out the death and rape threats).

Ho hum.

 

You asked for sources and I gave them, the first is a collection of over 200 hundred studies from around the world btw. Obviously you were either going to ignore them, or claim they are cherry picked/biased in some way. One of them shows that men can't legally be raped under under UK law.

 

At least I provided the sources, something tells me that if I asked you for the same regarding the bolded, you wouldn't do the same. And on the off chance that you did, they weren't from Jezebel or The Guardian, but I guess those totally wouldn't be cherry picked or disingenuous right?  

[straykat]

It's funny. I'll probably play a female in FO4 come tuesday, get Tomb Raider in the mail, and possibly roll both a fem Warden and fem Hawke if Xbox BC has both DA games.

 

And yet I still find this gender discussion kind of loathesome.

[ABASOVA]

5 seconds on google:

 

It is estimated that of all women killed globally in 2012, almost half were killed by intimate partners or family members, compared to less than six per cent of men killed in the same year.

 

And you are telling me that men suffer equally? Really?

 

http://www.unwomen.o...cts-and-figures

 

Let me guess - the UN has an 'agenda'.

The U.S. Dept. of Justice  (more data) and Interpol have similar statistics regarding sexual violence against women and small children (click research paper link). 

[prosthetic soul]

Chronoid might be the only Qunari player I like. Not that that's related. lol

 

He just can't be appeased about ME3. I find it funny.

You know what would legitimately appease me about ME 3?  It's so simple.  And it would only take three words from the collective mouths over there at Bioware.  But nope.  It has been three years since the debacle and they still haven't come remotely close to speaking it.  Quite the opposite.  Just THREE. ****ING. WORDS.  These three words would demonstrate humility, accountability, and respect for the players who were deceived.  Know what they are? 

 

Spoiler

We are sorry.

 

There.  Done.  There would be no addendum, no asterisk, no catches, no buts, and no further words after these three of course. (But well all know there is ALWAYS a catch with Bioware listening to the players)  There wouldn't need to be.  But if these words were uttered,   I would immediately cease and desist my incessant protesting on these forums and would probably be a loving faithful fan of Bioware once more.  If I'm lying I'm dying.  There will be those who will cry "BULLCRAP, you would ALWAYS hate on Bioware no matter what happens!"

 

Well, to that I say....You're wrong.  Completely and utterly wrong.  Again I must reiterate it's less about the endings themselves and more about how Bioware handled themselves after the fact. There have been many books printed on how to influence people and make friends and win over others to your side.  Know what they all have in common?  They all say this: 

 

If you make a mistake or wrong someone, own up to it.  Apologize.  Don't try to make excuses.   A simple sincere apology goes a long way. 

 

Same applies to companies and their image.  But someone over there at Bioware seemed to take the petulant child's playbook on being caught dead to rights with their hand in the cookie jar.  DON'T own up to it, try to bargain, make excuses, lie even more, and most of all, BLAME THE ACCUSER (Reject all choices ending). 

[prosthetic soul]

Who said it isn't? I'm just not butt hurt about it. The PC culture is right there with every other group on the internet trying to get their way. They're not exactly unique in that regard. I'd have to obliterate the entire internet if I wanted to cut out all the people the industry is plagued by, every fan on here included.

So....you're admitting you're just hugely apathetic about it all?  Basically? 

 

Apathy is such a disease it isn't even funny. 

[AresKeith]

It's funny. I'll probably play a female in FO4 come tuesday, get Tomb Raider in the mail, and possibly roll both a fem Warden and fem Hawke if Xbox BC has both DA games.

 

And yet I still find this gender discussion kind of loathesome.

 

This discussion has been done to death a long time ago lol

[straykat]

You know what would legitimately appease me about the ME 3?  It's so simple.  And it would only take three words from the collective mouths over there at Bioware.  But nope.  It has been three years since the debacle and they still haven't owned up to it.  Quite the opposite.  Just THREE. ****ING. WORDS.  These three words would demonstrate humility, accountability, and respect for the players who were deceived.  Know what they are? 

 

Spoiler

We are sorry.

 

There.  Done.  There would be no addendum, no asterisk, no catches, no buts, and no further words after these three of course. (But well all know there is ALWAYS a catch with Bioware listening to the players)  There wouldn't need to be.  But if these words were uttered,   I would immediately cease and desist my incessant protesting on these forums and would probably be a loving faithful fan of Bioware once more.  If I'm lying I'm dying.  There will be those who will cry "BULLCRAP, you would ALWAYS hate on Bioware no matter what happens!"

 

Well, to that I say....You're wrong.  Completely and utterly wrong.  Again I must reiterate it's less about the endings themselves and more about how Bioware handled themselves after the fact. There have been many books printed on how to influence people and make friends and win over others to your side.  Know what they all have in common?  They all say this: 

 

If you make a mistake or wrong someone, own up to it.  Apologize.  Don't try to make excuses.   A simple sincere apology goes a long way. 

 

Same applies to companies and their image.  But someone over there at Bioware seemed to take the petulant child's playbook on being caught dead to rights with their hand in the cookie jar.  DON'T own up to it, try to bargain, make excuses, lie even more, and most of all, BLAME THE ACCUSER (Reject all choices ending). 

 

It's possible some may very well want to say some things along those lines...

 

But companies like this double down on whatever the PR tells them to. Hoping it blows over. Maybe they didn't predict just how long the criticism would linger, but once they chose their message, they decided to stick with it. Now it's just too far in the past, gaming wise.

[Panda]

 

You asked for sources and I gave them, the first is a collection of over 200 hundred studies from around the world btw. Obviously you were either going to ignore them, or claim they are cherry picked/biased in some way. One of them shows that men can't legally be raped under under UK law.

 

At least I provided the sources, something tells me that if I asked you for the same regarding the bolded, you wouldn't do the same. And on the off chance that you did, they weren't from Jezebel or The Guardian, but I guess those totally wouldn't be cherry picked or disingenuous right?  

 

Seriously everyone has given there tons of sources both ways. It gets ignored anyways due to some lame excuse. Either studies are all misleading, numbers manipulated or you simply don't like the source. You being here multiple persons. So there is no point anyways with this.

[straykat]

This discussion has been done to death a long time ago lol

 

I mean more like in general.. everywhere.

 

I like being open to female characters personally, but once everything gets political or seems forced, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  I was fine on my own.

 

I can only imagine what some males feel like, who aren't quite as open. Or when they read articles like "Gamers are over" (http://www.gamasutra...rs_are_over.php), I can understand why they lash back and get defensive. They're not going to be won over this way...by being called irrelevant and pathetic.

 

And now even when you do something innocent, like a Femshep trailer, they get pissed at that too. Because bridges were already burned between the two sides.

[slimgrin]

 

 

And you are telling me that men suffer equally? Really?

 

 

 

Spend another 5 seconds to find out how many men are subjected to violent crimes. 

[pdusen]

You know what would legitimately appease me about ME 3?  It's so simple.  And it would only take three words from the collective mouths over there at Bioware.  But nope.  It has been three years since the debacle and they still haven't come remotely close to speaking it.  Quite the opposite.  Just THREE. ****ING. WORDS.  These three words would demonstrate humility, accountability, and respect for the players who were deceived.  Know what they are? 

 

Spoiler

We are sorry.

 

There.  Done.  There would be no addendum, no asterisk, no catches, no buts, and no further words after these three of course. (But well all know there is ALWAYS a catch with Bioware listening to the players)  There wouldn't need to be.  But if these words were uttered,   I would immediately cease and desist my incessant protesting on these forums and would probably be a loving faithful fan of Bioware once more.  If I'm lying I'm dying.  There will be those who will cry "BULLCRAP, you would ALWAYS hate on Bioware no matter what happens!"

 

Well, to that I say....You're wrong.  Completely and utterly wrong.  Again I must reiterate it's less about the endings themselves and more about how Bioware handled themselves after the fact. There have been many books printed on how to influence people and make friends and win over others to your side.  Know what they all have in common?  They all say this: 

 

If you make a mistake or wrong someone, own up to it.  Apologize.  Don't try to make excuses.   A simple sincere apology goes a long way. 

 

Same applies to companies and their image.  But someone over there at Bioware seemed to take the petulant child's playbook on being caught dead to rights with their hand in the cookie jar.  DON'T own up to it, try to bargain, make excuses, lie even more, and most of all, BLAME THE ACCUSER (Reject all choices ending). 

 

There's nothing to apologize for. They made an ending, a lot of people didn't like it, end of story. That is not a crime, nor is it wrongdoing. It's just a mismatch of tastes.

 

And I suppose you can count me as one of those people who just thinks you'd find something else to be offended about.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I mean more like in general.. everywhere.

 

I like being open to female characters personally, but once everything gets political or seems forced, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  I was fine on my own.

 

I can only imagine what some males feel like, who aren't quite as open. Or when they read articles like "Gamers are over" (http://www.gamasutra...rs_are_over.php), I can understand why they lash back and get defensive. They're not going to be won over this way...by being called irrelevant and pathetic.

 

And now even when you do something innocent, like a Femshep trailer, they get pissed at that too. Because bridges were already burned between the two sides.

 

Yeah, treating your own audience with the outmost contempt is a pretty good way to ****** them off.

[AresKeith]

I mean more like in general.. everywhere.

 

I like being open to female characters personally, but once everything gets political or seems forced, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  I was fine on my own.

 

I can only imagine what some males feel like, who aren't quite as open. Or when they read articles like "Gamers are over" (http://www.gamasutra...rs_are_over.php), I can understand why they lash back and get defensive. They're not going to be won over this way...by being called irrelevant and pathetic.

 

And now even when you do something innocent, like a Femshep trailer, they get pissed at that too. Because bridges were already burned between the two sides.

 

I agree, doing articles like that does nothing but make the situation worse that it is
 

[Giantdeathrobot]

Who said it isn't? I'm just not butt hurt about it. The PC culture is right there with every other group on the internet trying to get their way. They're not exactly unique in that regard. I'd have to obliterate the entire internet if I wanted to cut out all the people the industry is plagued by, every fan on here included.

 

Truer words have scarcely been spoken. I'm confused at people still acting like the tumblerites are the only pressure group in gaming when we had stuff like RPG Codex for eons, to say nothing of silly BS like the movements who want to censor games because Think Of The Children.

 

Pressure groups are indeed a welcome fact of life in any healthy society. Some of them just take the ''pressure'' part too far. Just like some humans are extreme and take, well, anything too far, be it sex or religion or stamps or turnips. The key is to ignore them and post facts that belie their claims, not shout back louder like what some people are doing. That's just giving them munitions.

[Lady Artifice]

No Lady Artifice, you cannot label people people when they don't identify as whatever you're labelling them as just because they share some of the same ideals and beliefs. I am pro- gender equality. I do NOT identify as a feminist. In fact, being pro- gender equality is precisely WHY I don't identify as one.

 

You believe in a deity/god of some kind? Congratulations, youre a catholic!

 

The bolded is a false dichotomy. A general philosophy doesn't neatly compare to a specific religious sect. A better metaphor would be something more broad and arbitrary, such a Nihilism. A person can believe that nothing matters, that nothing has any relevance or consequence, and still refute Nihilism as a term for their philosophy. Yet "Nihilist" can still be accurately applied to them. Whether we do so is just a matter of our individual concern for their wishes. 

 

I'm the first to suggest the possibility that the term "feminism" itself needs to be reconsidered, that it may be too outdated and stigmatized to be of any significant further use to us. My personal willingness to let it go in a general sense however, doesn't put an end to accurate language. The definition I've cited is the actual definition. I'm not going to bend to your distorted and stigmatized interpretation just because it sparks your sense of indignation. 

 

Contrariwise, I'm wouldn't even begin to try to pressure you to identify as anything. The definition stands, in it's most technical sense. Feminism as an ideal is synonymous with gender equality. Any personal feelings about it are inconsequential. 

 

I am sorry if that annoys you, but as neither are likely to change our interpretations, perhaps we might be better off dropping the issue? I'll happily concede that you made the stronger argument, even if it didn't sway me personally. 

[ABASOVA]

Spend another 5 seconds to find out how many men are subjected to violent crimes. 

By other men, yes. In fact, a visit to the unidentified/identified homicide victims database (internationally i'd suggest the doe network) will show a high number of male murder victims as well. If you are from the U.S, you can visit the Dept. of Corrections websites for each state and use search parameters (race, gender, age, type of crime) to get the percentage of those incarcerated for certain crimes. It is an interesting study. But I do not want to bring race into this, but sex crimes versus non-sexual violent crimes are different for men of different races as well.

 

 

It's curious as to why I am posting this on a gaming forum, but if anyone would like to google those sites, have a look, it is sad but informative. As for me, I grew up in a family owned daycare and worked at missing persons/children organizations/centers. You learn some sad and horrible things there.

[Il Divo]

Truer words have scarcely been spoken. I'm confused at people still acting like the tumblerites are the only pressure group in gaming when we had stuff like RPG Codex for eons, to say nothing of silly BS like the movements who want to censor games because Think Of The Children.

 

Pressure groups are indeed a welcome fact of life in any healthy society. Some of them just take the ''pressure'' part too far. Just like some humans are extreme and take, well, anything too far, be it sex or religion or stamps or turnips. The key is to ignore them and post facts that belie their claims, not shout back louder like what some people are doing. That's just giving them munitions.

 

Exactly. There's the sense of the sky is falling anytime anything happens on the Internet. Those problems run much deeper than just PC culture. It's like you said: people can take anything too far. The internet just hands out another extremely easy way to do that, because we can all hide behind anonymity while still shouting like crazy.
 

[Il Divo]

You know what would legitimately appease me about ME 3?  It's so simple.  And it would only take three words from the collective mouths over there at Bioware.  But nope.  It has been three years since the debacle and they still haven't come remotely close to speaking it.  Quite the opposite.  Just THREE. ****ING. WORDS.  These three words would demonstrate humility, accountability, and respect for the players who were deceived.  Know what they are? 

 

Spoiler

We are sorry.

 

There.  Done.  There would be no addendum, no asterisk, no catches, no buts, and no further words after these three of course. (But well all know there is ALWAYS a catch with Bioware listening to the players)  There wouldn't need to be.  But if these words were uttered,   I would immediately cease and desist my incessant protesting on these forums and would probably be a loving faithful fan of Bioware once more.  If I'm lying I'm dying.  There will be those who will cry "BULLCRAP, you would ALWAYS hate on Bioware no matter what happens!"

 

Well, to that I say....You're wrong.  Completely and utterly wrong.  Again I must reiterate it's less about the endings themselves and more about how Bioware handled themselves after the fact. There have been many books printed on how to influence people and make friends and win over others to your side.  Know what they all have in common?  They all say this: 

 

If you make a mistake or wrong someone, own up to it.  Apologize.  Don't try to make excuses.   A simple sincere apology goes a long way. 

 

Same applies to companies and their image.  But someone over there at Bioware seemed to take the petulant child's playbook on being caught dead to rights with their hand in the cookie jar.  DON'T own up to it, try to bargain, make excuses, lie even more, and most of all, BLAME THE ACCUSER (Reject all choices ending). 

 

 

So....you're admitting you're just hugely apathetic about it all?  Basically? 

 

Apathy is such a disease it isn't even funny. 

 

You could call it that. For the record, I do find a lot of PC culture very annoying. But looking at your above rant, I don't see how any of this would be an improvement in the grand scheme of things. Is the goal to replace all the demands for identity/representation with demands that Bioware apologize for everything we dislike in their games?

[von uber]

One of them shows that men can't legally be raped under under UK law.

And if you bothered to actually read a bit further you would see why. Rape has a very singular definition, a women attacking a man would get charged with (for example ) sexual coercion or assault, or assault by penetration.

What I don't get from people like you is why there is so much whataboutery.
If I said that women were lynched in India for adultery or being raped you'd go 'yeah but what about these men who had their car nicked '.
Or look at all those syrian girls captured and used as sex slaves - yeah but whatabout them girls playing my games eh!

It's perverse.

[SnakeCode]

And if you bothered to actually read a bit further you would see why. Rape has a very singular definition, a women attacking a man would get charged with (for example ) sexual coercion or assault, or assault by penetration.

What I don't get from people like you is why there is so much whataboutery.
If I said that women were lynched in India for adultery or being raped you'd go 'yeah but what about these men who had their car nicked '.
Or look at all those syrian girls captured and used as sex slaves - yeah but whatabout them girls playing my games eh!

It's perverse.

 

Of course I would! Actually no, unlike you, I don't try to make light of actual victims, that's a feminist thing. You lot are so busy crying about "manspreading" and "cyberviolence" and the air con being sexist it's a wonder you find the time to occasionally talk about real issues. So long as they're affecting women, of course.