687 réponses à ce sujet

[Mirrman70]

That was never the case, social commentary have been part of art and entertainement ever since art and entertainement existed.

 

SOOOOO you are telling me the main point of ENTERTAINment is not to entertain but to be commented on... I am sure that people in medieval times were discussing the social ramifications of having jesters smack each other with inflated pigs bladders, or that people discussed how clowns throwing pies in peoples' faces was a result of social injustices. ENTERTAINment is meant to entertain.

[Mirrman70]

Entertainment for who though? Are games just for men or are women included in that entertainment? For me, being able to play as a woman in a game impacts my entertainment. Women have been under represented in games and are too often portrayed offensively when they are depicted. These types of depictions drove me away from gaming. Now that women are getting better treatment by developers such as Bioware and Bethesda, I've come back to gaming. I'm happy that their advertising is starting to reflect that fact that they are putting effort into making great women protagonists so that other women like me will be entertained by their games.

 

I can honestly say that never have I ever thought to myself "that games main character is a female, I am not going to enjoy playing it". I play for Entertainment first and escapism second. neither of those require me to be able to play as a certain gender. I play for fun.

[Cyonan]

SOOOOO you are telling me the main point of ENTERTAINment is not to entertain but to be commented on... I am sure that people in medieval times were discussing the social ramifications of having jesters smack each other with inflated pigs bladders, or that people discussed how clowns throwing pies in peoples' faces was a result of social injustices. ENTERTAINment is meant to entertain.

 

and as we all know, Shakespeare's plays have absolutely no social commentary in them.

 

Not all entertainment is meant to be mindless fun.

[maia0407]

I can honestly say that never have I ever thought to myself "that games main character is a female, I am not going to enjoy playing it". I play for Entertainment first and escapism second. neither of those require me to be able to play as a certain gender. I play for fun.

Do you think that maybe you've never had to think about it because most games have the option to play as your gender? (Assuming you are a man due to your name) Imagine an alternate universe where almost all games had women as the protagonists and usually portrayed men as sexually available side kicks if men were portrayed at all. Do you think you might start to wonder why men never got to be the lead and that you might appreciate the games that let you play as a kick ass man? Would you also like to see those male leads advertised so that your buddies would find out about the game and enjoy it as well?

 

For me, entertainment and escapism aren't mutually exclusive. In regards to gaming, I'd say it's hard to have one without the other. Playing as a woman provides entertainment and escapism for me.

 

ETA:

Cyonan, on 06 Nov 2015 - 6:44 PM, said:

and as we all know, Shakespeare's plays have absolutely no social commentary in them.

 

Not all entertainment is meant to be mindless fun.

Can't be arsed to find links right now, but if I remember correctly, many plays were commissioned by nobles and meant as propaganda for themselves or against rivals. Moving beyond plays, fairy tales also provided an entertaining way to teach children lessons such as don't talk to strangers or the ever popular (even today) don't get raped.

[maia0407]

double post

[Giantdeathrobot]

SOOOOO you are telling me the main point of ENTERTAINment is not to entertain but to be commented on... I am sure that people in medieval times were discussing the social ramifications of having jesters smack each other with inflated pigs bladders, or that people discussed how clowns throwing pies in peoples' faces was a result of social injustices. ENTERTAINment is meant to entertain.

 

Well, if you think Bethesda's handling of Fallout is at the level of those gags, be my guest (and let's ignore that medieval entertainmet wasn't just only that by any means but whatever).

 

But as Tim Cain said, the series was created out of a desire to explore the ethics and ramifications of a post-apocalyptic world. If you think there is no room for social commentary in there, I'm not sure what to tell you. New Vegas in particular was choke-full of the stuff and also managed to be a very fun game. I know, the concept seems alien, but I swear it can be done.

 

There are also people who like to play as female characters. They find this (gasp!) entertaining. They get their enjoyment out of that, for reasons that are their own. How could this possibly be a bad thing? And if that is not a bad thing, why not advetise it? Is that not True Entertainmenttm enough for you?

 

I mean, if you don't care, fine. But a marketing campaign for a massively budgeted AAA game is not addressed towards anyone in particular, and is most definitely not addressed to the people who already know every single feature of Fallout 4 inside and out weeks before release. The point is to cast a wide net to bring in customers. And lo and behold, people who would like to play as female characters are also customers.

 

If this is ''pandering to SJWs'' somehow, I'm not sure how companies are supposed to even advertise their products without people going up in arms about said companies producing content that isn't strictly meant for them. Hey, where have I heard that criticism before...

[SnakeCode]

and as we all know, Shakespeare's plays have absolutely no social commentary in them.

 

Not all entertainment is meant to be mindless fun.

 

Good point, however there's a difference between a game containing some social commentary in it, and that being the entire focus of the game. Have you seen the sales figures of these "games" that are trying to send a political or ideological message? "Games" like Sunset, I Get This Call Every Day, Papers Please! Or Depression Quest? Not very impressive to say the least, and rightly so. It generally isn't what most people are looking for when they are picking up a game.

 

Meanwhile the "problematic" games like GTA can't stop flying from the shelves.

[Dread-Reaper]

Do you think that maybe you've never had to think about it because most games have the option to play as your gender? (Assuming you are a man due to your name) Imagine an alternate universe where almost all games had women as the protagonists and usually portrayed men as sexually available side kicks if men were portrayed at all. Do you think you might start to wonder why men never got to be the lead and that you might appreciate the games that let you play as a kick as man? Would you also like to see those male leads advertised so that your buddies would find out about the game and enjoy it as well?

 

For me, entertainment and escapism aren't mutually exclusive. In regards to gaming, I'd say it's hard to have one without the other. Playing as a woman provides entertainment and escapism for me.

The same can be said for Romance Novels.

[Vapaa]

SOOOOO you are telling me the main point of ENTERTAINment is not to entertain but to be commented on... I am sure that people in medieval times were discussing the social ramifications of having jesters smack each other with inflated pigs bladders, or that people discussed how clowns throwing pies in peoples' faces was a result of social injustices. ENTERTAINment is meant to entertain.

 

Social commentary has always been part of the history of entertainement, from theater, to movies, to litterature to gaming. Not all entertainement contain social commentary and the intensity of social commentary can vary, but you won't find a point in history where entertainement had nothing to do with social commentary.

[mopotter]

Yes and for games like these one of the main things to do is to show that you can choose what kind of character you can play

I've never understood players who don't get this.  If a game has options, show them as well as some of the game play.   Especially as much as the games are costing.  The more people who see something that may catch their interest the better.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

Because it's not. Even the director, one of the writers and star of the movie have said that most of the depth and hidden meaning attributed to the film are imaginary. It's the tail wagging the dog.

That's how literary criticism works. If the content was actually in the film, it wouldn't be "hidden".

Every time people cite the themes or subtext or depth of something, they're making it up.

[maia0407]

Good point, however there's a difference between a game containing some social commentary in it, and that being the entire focus of the game. Have you seen the sales figures of these "games" that are trying to send a political or ideological message? "Games" like Sunset, I Get This Call Every Day, Papers Please! Or Depression Quest? Not very impressive to say the least, and rightly so. It generally isn't what most people are looking for when they are picking up a game.

 

Meanwhile the "problematic" games like GTA can't stop flying from the shelves.

I don't know, tv series such as Star Trek do very well and have a lot of social commentary. Often the social commentary is part of the entertainment. Where would Saturday Night Live be without lampooning current culture?

 

Assuming I agree with your premise that most games that sell well don't have any social commentary (which I don't really know as I haven't played most games), could it be that gaming in general has driven away those people that would care about those types of games? I was driven away by the treatment of women in games and only came back to play games that treat women better. Perhaps as the industry matures and begins to treat women and other people better, people like me that care about SJW issues will buy those games.

 

I wouldn't touch GTA with a ten foot pole but I will play other games and there are others like me.

 

The same can be said for Romance Novels.

lol, yes. The same can be said for romance novels. However, I promise to support any men that start agitating for male centered romance novels. I won't reminisce about the good old days when women had the genre all to themselves! Pinky swear!

[Mirrman70]

Social commentary has always been part of the history of entertainement, from theater, to movies, to litterature to gaming. Not all entertainement contain social commentary and the intensity of social commentary can vary, but you won't find a point in history where entertainement had nothing to do with social commentary.

 

I am so sorry. I forgot how a good ol' pie to the face is a representation of social inequalities. or that a kid rolling a wooden hoop down a dirt road with a stick is a symbol of economic oppression. Fun is meant to be fun. Entertainment is meant to be entertaining. Mindless humor has managed to survive all of human history for a reason.

[Dread-Reaper]

lol, yes. The same can be said for romance novels. However, I promise to support any men that start agitating for male centered romance novels. I won't reminisce about the good old days when women had the genre all to themselves! Pinky swear!

Good, I am in desperate need of more under-the-covers ****** material.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I am so sorry. I forgot how a good ol' pie to the face is a representation of social inequalities. or that a kid rolling a wooden hoop down a dirt road with a stick is a symbol of economic oppression. Fun is meant to be fun. Entertainment is meant to be entertaining. Mindless humor has managed to survive all of human history for a reason.

 

So has social commentary. What do you think the Bible or Plato's writings are? The plays of Aristophanes, Seneca and other assorted playwrights across the ancient world? Cripes, some even say Gilgamesh's Epic (you know, the earliest fictional text of humanity as far as we know) had elements of that.

[SnakeCode]

I don't know, tv series such as Star Trek do very well and have a lot of social commentary. Often the social commentary is part of the entertainment. Where would Saturday Night Live be without lampooning current culture?

 

Assuming I agree with your premise that most games that sell well don't have any social commentary (which I don't really know as I haven't played most games), could it be that gaming in general has driven away those people that would care about those types of games? I was driven away by the treatment of women in games and only came back to play games that treat women better. Perhaps as the industry matures and begins to treat women and other people better, people like me that care about SJW issues will buy those games.

 

I wouldn't touch GTA with a ten foot pole but I will play other games and there are others like me.

 

That... wasn't what I said. I never games that sell well don't have any social commentary in them at all, I said that games with the sole purpose of being social commentary don't sell well. Believe it or not GTA isn't devoid of social commentary either, it just isn't the main function of the game.

[78stonewobble]

1. Entertainment for who though? Are games just for men or are women included in that entertainment? 2. For me, being able to play as a woman in a game impacts my entertainment. 3. Women have been under represented in games  4. and are too often portrayed offensively when they are depicted. 5. These types of depictions drove me away from gaming. 6. Now that women are getting better treatment by developers such as Bioware and Bethesda, I've come back to gaming. 7. I'm happy that their advertising is starting to reflect that fact that they are putting effort into making great women protagonists so that other women like me will be entertained by their games.

 

1. For everyone I presume... I haven't heard about any stores recently, that refuses to sell you a game based on the buyer being a man or a woman. Have you? 

 

2. I completely understand that. I prefer to play as a man as well, because I can better immerse myself in the universe, story and character that way, though there have been some good games where I've played as a woman.

 

3. Based on what? A simple counting of games with women player characters? While that might be true, it is irrelevant. The real question is whether women are underrepresented in comparison to the gaming purchasing power/will they display. I, personally, think we shouldn't, as a society, dictate what kind of "art" and "products" can be sold and in what amounts and instead let a free market govern itself based on supply and demand. Atleast in certain subjective taste market areas... In others I'm quite the communist. *lol* 

 

4. While I can agree on that in regards to some products... Offensive is subjective... Now, I don't like fish and the colours purple and orange are "offensive" to my aesthetical sense. Does that mean people shouldn't be able to open a fish restaurant or sell clothes in those colours? Should I bully people who like those things into doing what I do, because I know best? No, on both accounts... It just means I should not choose those things for myself and myself alone. 

 

5. Which is taking a stance and voting with your wallet. 

 

6. It's great that women are getting a better treatment... but unfortunate that we can't get a real game actually tackling with the subject of eg. spousal violence (Ps. in younger couple's it's mostly the woman who's the instigator) or prostitution. Tho I must admit I don't have a lot of faith in the gaming industry to actually deal with those subjects in an adult fashion. 

 

7. I've got absolutely no beef with games being produced or marketed for women... But I will say this, that if we continiously focus on genders and narrowing the entire population of the earth down to 2 boxes... Then we're never gonna look past gender and take each individual as who they are... 

[maia0407]

So has social commentary. What do you think the Bible or Plato's writings are?

Where did the idea come from that social commentary can't be entertaining, anyway? I've never really enjoyed mindless stupidity like the Three Stooges. But, what do I know, maybe the stooges had some commentary in their stories as well.

 

Wasn't the guy getting the pie to the face usually portrayed as the current day boogie man?

[Vapaa]

I am so sorry. I forgot how a good ol' pie to the face is a representation of social inequalities. or that a kid rolling a wooden hoop down a dirt road with a stick is a symbol of economic oppression. Fun is meant to be fun. Entertainment is meant to be entertaining. Mindless humor has managed to survive all of human history for a reason.

 
So in the olden ways, a pie to the face was the sole source of entertainement ?
 
So greek tragedies never existed, along with the litterature from the rest of the world ?

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Yeah, but it didn't have a transgender manticore that sexually identifies with mayonnaise, so once again the video game industry proves that it just doesn't "get it."

And I'm glad they didn't. I self-identify as a transgender manticore, and I'm sure they'd represent one with a perfect little ass and create an expectation of unreasonable body image. I'd have no choice but to complain between the cartons of ice cream I'd have to devour for comfort.

[Mirrman70]

Where did the idea come from that social commentary can't be entertaining, anyway? I've never really enjoyed mindless stupidity like the Three Stooges. But, what do I know, maybe the stooges had some commentary in them as well.

 

Wasn't the guy getting the pie to the face usually portrayed as the current day boogie man?

 

the only social commentary I have ever been found to be entertaining are the ones where they ridicule how serious humanity is. lighten up. take a pie to the face.

 

 
So in the olden ways, a pie to the face was the sole source of entertainement ?
 
So greek tragedies never existed, along with the litterature from the rest of the world ?

 

The other great apes don't have tragedies or epics and yet they still entertain themselves. Social issues are a construct of "intelligence", a "luxury" created by a decreased risk of danger brought upon by advancing technology and medicine. Become the animal that you are and throw some **** in someones face.

[maia0407]

That... wasn't what I said. I never games that sell well don't have any social commentary in them at all, I said that games with the sole purpose of being social commentary don't sell well. Believe it or not GTA isn't devoid of social commentary either, it just isn't the main function of the game.

 

Gotcha'. I'm just making the point that video games have done a great job of driving away those segments of the population that might buy those purely social commentary games. Those of us who care about those social issues usually care because we face those issues every day; gaming hasn't been kind to that population as we're either ignored or portrayed in an offensive manner. Perhaps I'm wrong and those games just don't sell as they need more than just social commentary to be entertaining. We just don't know but if other forms of entertainment are any indication, social commentary as entertainment sells well.

1. For everyone I presume... I haven't heard about any stores recently, that refuses to sell you a game based on the buyer being a man or a woman. Have you? 

 

2. I completely understand that. I prefer to play as a man as well, because I can better immerse myself in the universe, story and character that way, though there have been some good games where I've played as a woman.

 

3. Based on what? A simple counting of games with women player characters? While that might be true, it is irrelevant. The real question is whether women are underrepresented in comparison to the gaming purchasing power/will they display. I, personally, think we shouldn't, as a society, dictate what kind of "art" and "products" can be sold and in what amounts and instead let a free market govern itself based on supply and demand. Atleast in certain subjective taste market areas... In others I'm quite the communist. *lol* 

 

4. While I can agree on that in regards to some products... Offensive is subjective... Now, I don't like fish and the colours purple and orange are "offensive" to my aesthetical sense. Does that mean people shouldn't be able to open a fish restaurant or sell clothes in those colours? Should I bully people who like those things into doing what I do, because I know best? No, on both accounts... It just means I should not choose those things for myself and myself alone. 

 

5. Which is taking a stance and voting with your wallet. 

 

6. It's great that women are getting a better treatment... but unfortunate that we can't get a real game actually tackling with the subject of eg. spousal violence (Ps. in younger couple's it's mostly the woman who's the instigator) or prostitution. Tho I must admit I don't have a lot of faith in the gaming industry to actually deal with those subjects in an adult fashion. 

 

7. I've got absolutely no beef with games being produced or marketed for women... But I will say this, that if we continiously focus on genders and narrowing the entire population of the earth down to 2 boxes... Then we're never gonna look past gender and take each individual as who they are... 

1. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that stores refuse to sell to women. I'm saying that the lack of female leads and the treatment of women in video games impacts the enjoyment of many women when playing games.

 

3. The fact remains that games have historically been made for and marketed towards men and that these practices alienated a lot of women that would otherwise enjoy gaming. We have purchasing power as well but many just choose to spend their entertainment dollars with media that actually takes their point of view into consideration. The female gaming market will continue to grow as the environment becomes more friendly toward women.

[Vapaa]

The other great apes don't have tragedies or epics and yet they still entertain themselves. Social issues are a construct of "intelligence", a "luxury" created by a decreased risk of danger brought upon by advancing technology and medicine. Become the animal that you are and throw some **** in someones face.

 

Actually, social issues are inherent to any social construction, even animal ones, some animals (great apes included) have a sense of justice, which is fundamental for the cohesion of the social group.

[Iakus]

I can honestly say that never have I ever thought to myself "that games main character is a female, I am not going to enjoy playing it". I play for Entertainment first and escapism second. neither of those require me to be able to play as a certain gender. I play for fun.

Believe it or not, there are people who like to customize their characters.  And enjoy the game less when they can't do it.

 

And that includes the choice to play as male or female characters.

[78stonewobble]

1. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that stores refuse to sell to women. I'm saying that the lack of female leads and the treatment of women in video games impacts the enjoyment of many women when playing games.

 

3. The fact remains that games have historically been made for and marketed towards men and that these practices alienated a lot of women that would otherwise enjoy gaming. We have purchasing power as well but many just choose to spend their entertainment dollars with media that actually takes their point of view into consideration. The female gaming market will continue to grow as the environment becomes more friendly toward women.

 

1. But it kinda IS what you're saying... That the industry refuses to cater to women. Which to my ears is a bit like saying that justin bieber, other pop artists and a great majority of the music industry is "discriminatory" to fans of deathmetal played on empty oystershells. 

 

Just because something isn't for you or me... Doesn't mean it isn't for someone and if we change "it" to fit "us"... We're nowhere... Now we're not catering to that someone and discriminating someone else. 

 

The market MUST govern itself based on supply and demand or we really ARE gonna be discriminating against someone. 

 

3. There might indeed be a huge untapped market of female gamers out there. In which case the first ones to tap into it successfully are gonna make billions. However... If simply less women are interested in games (for now, it might change in the future) we can't reasonably expect companies to disproportionately make products for them. 

 

Or rather... What I'm trying to say is ... If you're tastes are not mainstream, you cannot expect to be catered to in the same way as the mainstream. 

 

Or basically... The world and the free market does not revolve around us and our tastes, wants or needs...

 

...

 

EDIT: I forgot earlier to comment on this... "portrayal of women" ... Seems to often be quite a sought arbitrary conclusion. Eg. there's a stripper in this game -> game thinks all women should be sexualised... Uhm no... it is 1 woman... It does not preclude that the "game"/"universe"/"developers" don't think another woman wouldn't excel as a tenured professor in physics and it most certainly is plausible depiction of A woman (out of 3.5 billion) and if the games characters do have a sleazy side (imho), it makes perfect sense for them to encounter a female stripper. It is not necessarily a grand sweeping statement on all women.... If I dress up as a smurf. It does not mean I am a smurf or that I like smurfs or that I am against smurfs... People can guess at whatever they imagine I mean by doing so... but to really find out, they need to ask me... And till they do, they might be horribly wrong about it... PS: If I ever see a smurf, I would need a flamethrower. There... you heard it here first... I am smurfist.

 

PPS: And I have never in my life mistaken a videogame stripper for any woman/or man in my life... Being a sane (and I even got tested) rational adult I can distinguish between fiction and reality