687 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 

3. There might indeed be a huge untapped market of female gamers out there. In which case the first ones to tap into it successfully are gonna make billions. However... If simply less women are interested in games (for now, it might change in the future) we can't reasonably expect companies to disproportionately make products for them. 

 

Or rather... What I'm trying to say is ... If you're tastes are not mainstream, you cannot expect to be catered to in the same way as the mainstream. 

 

Or basically... The world and the free market does not revolve around us and our tastes, wants or needs...

The thing about this trailer is, it doesn't look like it was a "bone" thrown to anyone.  it wasn't a "female" trailer any more than it catered to men.  It simply, showed both a male and female SOle survivor doing similar stuff:  talking, fighting, interacting with NPCs.  There wasn't a big deal made.  No one jumped out and went  "LOOK!  THIS ONE HAS BOOBS!"  It's simply a game feature.  Something players may like.

 

And people weren't "confused" about it.  Something Bioware seems inordinately worried about doing to its audience.

[maia0407]

1. But it kinda IS what you're saying... That the industry refuses to cater to women. Which to my ears is a bit like saying that justin bieber, other pop artists and a great majority of the music industry is "discriminatory" to fans of deathmetal played on empty oystershells. 

 

Just because something isn't for you or me... Doesn't mean it isn't for someone and if we change "it" to fit "us"... We're nowhere... Now we're not catering to that someone and discriminating someone else. 

 

The market MUST govern itself based on supply and demand or we really ARE gonna be discriminating against someone. 

 

3. There might indeed be a huge untapped market of female gamers out there. In which case the first ones to tap into it successfully are gonna make billions. However... If simply less women are interested in games (for now, it might change in the future) we can't reasonably expect companies to disproportionately make products for them. 

 

Or rather... What I'm trying to say is ... If you're tastes are not mainstream, you cannot expect to be catered to in the same way as the mainstream. 

 

Or basically... The world and the free market does not revolve around us and our tastes, wants or needs...

No, I did not say that stores refuse to sell to women. Are you honestly arguing that the industry caters to women and not men? No one is saying that Bieber fans can't have their music. What I'm saying is that your analogy only works if Bieber music is 99% of the music available. If that were the case, how would you respond to the criticism that only Bieber music sold well so we should only produce Beiber music? Would you reasonably reply that maybe Bieber music sells well because it's been the only game in town? Would you ignore the statistics from the non-Beiber music producers that showed almost half of all music lovers weren't Beiber fans and that, perhaps, there is an untapped market out there? Or would you continue to defend the status quo and knock the music producer that dared to advertise that they had a non-Beiber song on their album?

 

More and more gaming companies are jumping on the inclusiveness wagon. I'd say that's market forces at work.

[Giantdeathrobot]

the only social commentary I have ever been found to be entertaining are the ones where they ridicule how serious humanity is. lighten up. take a pie to the face.

 

 

The other great apes don't have tragedies or epics and yet they still entertain themselves. Social issues are a construct of "intelligence", a "luxury" created by a decreased risk of danger brought upon by advancing technology and medicine. Become the animal that you are and throw some **** in someones face.

 

Sure, so because you don't like social commentary, it shouldn't be in any game?

 

I'm not even sure what you,re trying to argue at this point. It's like you purposefully ignore that some pople have different tastes than yours, and that Bethesda tapping into those tastes is neither out of the ordinary nor is it ''pandering''.

[SlottsMachine]

Are we talkin bout trailers? Again?

 

 

 

 

My take on it is really at the end of the day a trailers job is to drive up the hype machine for the most number of people and whether there is a woman included or not is not important to the majority of gamers. 

 

Personally I find the hype machine incredibly boring though and couldn't care less about trailers. 

[Angry_Elcor]

Yet. Baby steps.

 

It will never happen. If it did, it would take away something to complain about. I'm not sure which is worse.

 

And I'm glad they didn't. I self-identify as a transgender manticore, and I'm sure they'd represent one with a perfect little ass and create an expectation of unreasonable body image. I'd have no choice but to complain between the cartons of ice cream I'd have to devour for comfort.

 

Don't judge us hot manticores just because our asses are perfect. We didn't choose to be this sexy, we were born this way.

[Vortex13]

I am still mildly disappointed that I can't play Fallout 4 with my friends, or play as a Ghoul, Robot, Dog, or Deathclaw (Fallout Tactics was awesome)

 

Apart from that I liked the trailer and didn't see it as pandering to one side or the other. And going off that, why do we even have this "versus" mentality floating around? Aren't we all video game fans, shouldn't we be happy that we have more titles to enjoy? Anyway, I don't really care one way or the other on such issues; if the game is fun I will play it whether I am a man, woman, or amorphous blob.

[Beerfish]

So do I have to play as a female in this game?  Seems like the main protagonist is female only, not sure if I like that but I guess I'll adapt as the game seems uber cool.

[maia0407]

I am still mildly disappointed that I can't play Fallout 4 with my friends, or play as a Ghoul, Robot, Dog, or Deathclaw (Fallout Tactics was awesome)

 

Apart from that I liked the trailer and didn't see it as pandering to one side or the other. And going off that, why do we even have this "versus" mentality floating around? Aren't we all video game fans, shouldn't we be happy that we have more titles to enjoy? Anyway, I don't really care one way or the other on such issues; if the game is fun I will play it whether I am a man, woman, or amorphous blob.

I don't care for online multiplayer, but I would love the option to be able to be able have my husband take over one of the companions (or create one) and play along with me.

[Mirrman70]

Sure, so because you don't like social commentary, it shouldn't be in any game?

 

I'm not even sure what you,re trying to argue at this point. It's like you purposefully ignore that some pople have different tastes than yours, and that Bethesda tapping into those tastes is neither out of the ordinary nor is it ''pandering''.

 

I am trying to argue that the main point of entertainment is to entertain. if some people find social commentary entertaining, fine. but the main point of entertainment is not to be used as a form of social commentary. Comedy is supposed to be funny, tragedy should be sad, Heroism is inspiring. To say entertainment is made for social commentary is just not right (my opinion but so is all forms of right and wrong). This might be the only time I agree with Sylvius but I think that people often make up "hidden" social commentary when there was never meant to be. I don't care if a game has social commentary or that others enjoy certain games because they have social commentary, I just care that people admit that entertainment is meant to entertain. I want people to forget that the world sucks and have some mindless fun because the world isn't gonna stop isn't gonna stop sucking.

[Fredward]

EDIT: I forgot earlier to comment on this... "portrayal of women" ... Seems to often be quite a sought arbitrary conclusion. Eg. there's a stripper in this game -> game thinks all women should be sexualised... Uhm no... it is 1 woman... It does not preclude that the "game"/"universe"/"developers" don't think another woman wouldn't excel as a tenured professor in physics and it most certainly is plausible depiction of A woman (out of 3.5 billion) and if the games characters do have a sleazy side (imho), it makes perfect sense for them to encounter a female stripper. It is not necessarily a grand sweeping statement on all women.... If I dress up as a smurf. It does not mean I am a smurf or that I like smurfs or that I am against smurfs... People can guess at whatever they imagine I mean by doing so... but to really find out, they need to ask me... And till they do, they might be horribly wrong about it... PS: If I ever see a smurf, I would need a flamethrower. There... you heard it here first... I am smurfist.

 

I think the objection in this instance generally crops up if the stripper is the only  meaningful female presence in the story. For instance I know there's this guy who writes books whose female characters are almost always the whores with a heart of gold trope. And there's this other guy whose books I read where a female would show up, be [inexplicably] attracted to the protag, help him along his journey literally or like his inner journey and then die. He did it like 3-4 times.
 

[SlottsMachine]

 

Apart from that I liked the trailer and didn't see it as pandering to one side or the other. And going off that, why do we even have this "versus" mentality floating around? 

 

Its the internet, where almost everything is a WWE style royal rumble. But sadly our post are not being narrated by Jim Ross. 

[Vortex13]

I don't care for online multiplayer, but I would love the option to be able to be able have my husband take over one of the companions (or create one) and play along with me.

 

 

I wouldn't want a Fallout MMO, but the option to game with a few close friends would be amazing.

 

 

P.S.

If the game had a feature where a second player could create anyone as a companion to the SS, I would totally be making my character a giant mutated ant as a reference to one of my favorite characters in a Gamma World game my friends and I played back in the day. 

[78stonewobble]

1. No, I did not say that stores refuse to sell to women. 2. Are you honestly arguing that the industry caters to women and not men? No one is saying that Bieber fans can't have their music. 3. What I'm saying is that your analogy only works if Bieber music is 99% of the music available. 4. If that were the case, how would you respond to the criticism that only Bieber music sold well so we should only produce Beiber music? 5. Would you reasonably reply that maybe Bieber music sells well because it's been the only game in town? 6. Would you ignore the statistics from the non-Beiber music producers that showed almost half of all music lovers weren't Beiber fans and that, perhaps, there is an untapped market out there? 7. Or would you continue to defend the status quo and knock the music producer that dared to advertise that they had a non-Beiber song on their album?

 

8. More and more gaming companies are jumping on the inclusiveness wagon. I'd say that's market forces at work.

 

1. But you are saying that the videogaming industry is unwilling to make products and marketing aimed at women. Implying that they should... They are supposedly just not interested in selling products to women (refusing), eventhough they absolutely could... Again ... for implied reasons. 

 

2. No... I'm saying the video game industry might cater for men, for a reason. That reason being much bigger demand... and if it's due to people's demand. There is absolutely nothing inherently sexist or discriminatory about it. 

 

3. No, it works universally... It is dependent on the demand of the consumerbase. Whoever that may be. 

 

4. If only bieber music sold and I were making decisions on what to sell? Then I would sell bieber music. The same way I wouldn't sell sand in sahara. 

 

5. If we can conclude that only bieber music sells... Then there have been attempts at selling something else, that weren't as successfull. So I would still sell bieber music... Possibly test the feet once in a while with something else, but I sure as hell wouldn't change my main productline around based on positive thinking alone. 

 

6. If the statistics say there's an interest. I would dip the feet in the water with a product. Again not gonna change my biggest product line around on wishfull thinking. If that "test" then sells well... I might further bet on it...

 

7. I'm saying there might be a status quo for a reason, which you seem to ignore. And I've not knocked anyone for that... At most I've poked at the inherent sexism in focusing on gender. 

 

8. As long as it's market forces and not the disproportionate bullying and bad pr resulting from harassment from a non market representative minority. 

[Vortex13]

Its the internet, where almost everything is a WWE style royal rumble. But sadly our post are not being narrated by Jim Ross. 

 

Ah, that's right I forgot. The Internet:

 

"No your wrong! My side has to win!" 

 

[SnakeCode]

Don't judge us hot manticores just because our asses are perfect. We didn't choose to be this sexy, we were born this way.

 

You're blind to your hot manticore privilege. It's pervasive in society. Just because you aren't actively body shaming others, doesn't mean you don't benefit from it. You're still unavoidably complicit in the oppression of less gorgeous manticores.

[AresKeith]

Its the internet, where almost everything is a WWE style royal rumble. But sadly our post are not being narrated by Jim Ross.

"By Gawd!"

[von uber]

Good for Bethesda for noticing that there is a whole other gender to be marketed too, and not making a big old fuss of it.

Good to see the usual accusations of pandering to SJW coming out as well. I mean how DARE they show a woman - she hasn't even got a cleavage window to show her massive norks off! Quick crank up the abusive tweets and death threats, can't let this stand can we!

Bloody kids.

[Belial]

How do people here always manage to turn threads into either gender equality or LGBT rights arguments?

[Dread-Reaper]

Good for Bethesda for noticing that there is a whole other gender to be marketed too, and not making a big old fuss of it.

Good to see the usual accusations of pandering to SJW coming out as well. I mean how DARE they show a woman - she hasn't even got a cleavage window to show her massive norks off! Quick crank up the abusive tweets and death threats, can't let this stand can we!

Bloody kids.

Bro, who needs a cleavage window when they've given us that wonderful rear-view, in a tight jumpsuit too.

[maia0407]

1. But you are saying that the videogaming industry is unwilling to make products and marketing aimed at women. Implying that they should... 

 

2. No... I'm saying the video game industry might cater for men, for a reason. That reason being much bigger demand... and if it's due to people's demand. There is absolutely nothing inherently sexist or discriminatory about it. 

 

3. No, it works universally... It is dependent on the demand of the consumerbase. Whoever that may be. 

 

4. If only bieber music sold and I were making decisions on what to sell? Then I would sell bieber music. The same way I wouldn't sell sand in sahara. 

 

5. If we can conclude that only bieber music sells... Then there have been attempts at selling something else, that weren't as successfull. So I would still sell bieber music... Possibly test the feet once in a while with something else, but I sure as hell wouldn't change my main productline around based on positive thinking alone. 

 

6. If the statistics say there's an interest. I would dip the feet in the water with a product. Again not gonna change my biggest product line around on wishfull thinking. If that "test" then sells well... I might further bet on it...

 

7. I'm saying there might be a status quo for a reason, which you seem to ignore. And I've not knocked anyone for that... At most I've poked at the inherent sexism in focusing on gender. 

 

8. As long as it's market forces and not the disproportionate bullying and bad pr resulting from harassment from a non market representative minority. 

1.Are you saying that no one should make games that appeal to women as well as men? Are you arguing that FO4 should not advertise the female protagonist? Obviously, gaming companies are picking up on the fact that there is a female market for this or they wouldn't be making games more inclusive. I don't know what else to say as you seem to be implying that women gamers don't exist when they are anywhere from 30 to 50% of the market and that developers should just ignore us in favor of men. 

 

2. You seem to repeatedly miss the point that unfavorable depictions of women in gaming since the beginning of the medium have affected whether or not women play the games. If you drive away women by treating them badly in your games of course you will fulfill your expectations that it's only men who like gaming. The female market has been increasing as woman are treated better in games.

 

8. I don't know where you are getting the idea that developers are being bullied. Merely bringing up the problems of treatment of women in gaming seems to cause people to drag out this idea that we're bullying. Pointing out problems is not bullying or harassment.

 

At any rate, these posts are going around in circles. No one is stealing your cookies by being more inclusive. This whole thread is about a woman being given equal representation in the trailer. I don't know why that threatens so many people.

[Fredward]

How do people here always manage to turn threads into either gender equality or LGBT rights arguments?

 

Well this thread actually was about gender equality.

[78stonewobble]

I think the objection in this instance generally crops up if the stripper is the only  meaningful female presence in the story. For instance I know there's this guy who writes books whose female characters are almost always the whores with a heart of gold trope. And there's this other guy whose books I read where a female would show up, be [inexplicably] attracted to the protag, help him along his journey literally or like his inner journey and then die. He did it like 3-4 times.
 

 

Again... Not all stories have to cater to your, mine, someone elses particular taste. 

 

Apparently that is that guys thing and if someone doesn't like that... They shouldn't buy it. 

 

Thankfully, sofar, noone is telling people how they should write their books, so it better fits their subjective tastes or whatever a majority / minority wants, but we can surely see the tendency in adverts and more commercial products (works of art or not). 

[SnakeCode]

How do people here always manage to turn threads into either gender equality or LGBT rights arguments?

 

It's a time honoured BSN tradition. If a thread isn't already about LGBT or gender issues, it soon will be.

[78stonewobble]

Good for Bethesda for noticing that there is a whole other gender to be marketed too, and not making a big old fuss of it.

Good to see the usual accusations of pandering to SJW coming out as well. I mean how DARE they show a woman - she hasn't even got a cleavage window to show her massive norks off! Quick crank up the abusive tweets and death threats, can't let this stand can we!

Bloody kids.

 

Didn't read any of the arguments. Check.

Generalized every person and argument into 2 arbitrarily selected sides. Check.

 

Some people are worse than kids. Check.

[Fixers0]

Not this all over again.