687 réponses à ce sujet

[Dread-Reaper]

1.Are you saying that no one should make games that appeal to women as well as men? Are you arguing that FO4 should not advertise the female protagonist? Obviously, gaming companies are picking up on the fact that there is a female market for this or they wouldn't be making games more inclusive. I don't know what else to say as you seem to be implying that women gamers don't exist when they are anywhere from 30 to 50% of the market and that developers should just ignore us in favor of men. 

 

2. You seem to repeatedly miss the point that unfavorable depictions of women in gaming since the beginning of the medium have affected whether or not women play the games. If you drive away women by treating them badly in your games of course you will fulfill your expectations that it's only men who like gaming. The female market has been increasing as woman are treated better in games.

 

8. I don't know where you are getting the idea that developers are being bullied. Merely bringing up the problems of treatment of women in gaming seems to cause people to drag out this idea that we're bullying. Pointing out problems is not bullying or harassment.

 

At any rate, these posts are going around in circles. No one is stealing your cookies by being more inclusive. This whole thread is about a woman being given equal representation in the trailer. I don't know why that threatens so many people.

Got any sources for those percentages? I've been looking for awhile for how many women make up the market, but have yet to find any reliable sources.

[MisterJB]

And "Trespasser" showed only the Female Inquisitor. Who cares?

[Akrabra]

And "Trespasser" showed only the Female Inquisitor. Who cares?

People? I don't care that much. I just thought it was an excellent trailer that showed both the male and female protagonist without compromising the material. I love the Trespasser trailer aswell, but it could have been half and half. I suspect its all female because Alix Wilton was the performing voice actor. 

[Fredward]

Again... Not all stories have to cater to your, mine, someone elses particular taste. 

 

Apparently that is that guys thing and if someone doesn't like that... They shouldn't buy it. 

 

Thankfully, sofar, noone is telling people how they should write their books, so it better fits their subjective tastes or whatever a majority / minority wants, but we can surely see the tendency in adverts and more commercial products (works of art or not). 

 

Plenty of people are told how they should write their books actually but that's neither here nor there.

 

And yes I could not buy his books (and I don't) but I can also mention that I have a problem with it. He is, after all, under no compunction to change his work for me, no? What's more I have no interest in living in a world where I pretend that the media we consume and choose to consume does not influence our attitude and thinking so if the chance arises I will mention that I find the way someone chooses to represent something as problematic or 'not to my tastes.'

[maia0407]

Got any sources for those percentages? I've been looking for awhile for how many women make up the market, but have yet to find any reliable sources.

http://www.theguardi...video-games-iab

 

http://www.polygon.c...mers-statistics

 

http://www.theesa.co...ESA_EF_2014.pdf

[Ibn_Shisha]

That's how literary criticism works. If the content was actually in the film, it wouldn't be "hidden".

Every time people cite the themes or subtext or depth of something, they're making it up.

 

This was always my big problem with lit. classes and lit. professors.   All that 'what is the author saying here' and then the professor telling you you're wrong if your interpretation doesn't fit his/hers.  How do you know?  I don't know of any author or playwright that set out Cliffnotes detailing all symbolism in their work do you?  Unless the author has clearly stated somewhere that 'I meant paragraph X to be a commentary on Y', then who are you to say my interpretation is less 'correct' than yours?

 

(Most lit classes I either aced, or dropped after clashing with the prof in the first week)
 

[SmilesJA]

Good to see the usual accusations of pandering to SJW coming out as well. I mean how DARE they show a woman - she hasn't even got a cleavage window to show her massive norks off! Quick crank up the abusive tweets and death threats, can't let this stand can we!

Bloody kids.

 

[Kierro Ren]

How do people here always manage to turn threads into either gender equality or LGBT rights arguments?

 

Boredom? Stress from having nothing to play and nearest game's weeks away? Wanting to cause problems, just for the hell of it? Either way, it's sad...

 

PEOPLE, GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT ME:A!!! Leave race, gender, LGBT, and any religious beliefs out of it (except for The Force).... please!?

[SnakeCode]

http://www.theguardi...video-games-iab

 

http://www.polygon.c...mers-statistics

 

http://www.theesa.co...ESA_EF_2014.pdf

 

The Guardian and Polygon? Yeah i'm sure those figures are legit...

[maia0407]

The Guardian and Polygon? Yeah i'm sure those figures are legit...

They are reporting on stats from the Pew Research Center and the like. Follow the links.

 

ETA: Gaurdian article reporting on results from 'Data and Industry Programmes at the Internet Advertising Bureau'

 

Polygon article reporting on data from the Pew Research Center.

 

Pretty legit.

[SmilesJA]

If a game allows you to play as a male and a female character, then the developers should advertise it as such. My thoughts on social commentary is that I have no problem with it. My main problem is that people are finding things that aren't there and are shoving it down people's throats. (Looking at you Mcintosh!)

[AresKeith]

If a game allows you to play as a male and a female character, then the developers should advertise it as such. My thoughts on social commentary is that I have no problem with it. My main problem is that people are finding things that aren't there and are shoving it down people's throats. (Looking at you Mcintosh!)

People still take him serious?

[SnakeCode]

People still take him serious?

 

No, but they take his puppet/mouthpiece seriously.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

You're blind to your hot manticore privilege. It's pervasive in society. Just because you aren't actively body shaming others, doesn't mean you don't benefit from it. You're still unavoidably complicit in the oppression of less gorgeous manticores.

Yeah, what he said! Hot transgender manticore privilege has ruined my life! I demand some sort of taxpayer-funded restitution for my mediocre ass! (And I'd accept it in the form of ice cream, if that helps.)

[Pasquale1234]

They are reporting on stats from the Pew Research Center and the like. Follow the links.
 
ETA: Gaurdian article reporting on results from 'Data and Industry Programmes at the Internet Advertising Bureau'
 
Polygon article reporting on data from the Pew Research Center.
 
Pretty legit.

The moment I saw the links you'd posted, I knew their legitimacy would be questioned. (Not that that's a bad thing - a lot of nonsense is published and presented as fact.)

That's always the case when actual data conflicts with someone's beliefs.

[Dread-Reaper]

http://www.theguardi...video-games-iab

 

http://www.polygon.c...mers-statistics

 

http://www.theesa.co...ESA_EF_2014.pdf

Thanks.

 

1. A poll of 4,000 participants isn't really enough to effectively gauge the amount of women playing games. Especially since they account for mobile games such as Candy Crusher and women dominate that market.

 

2. I really have trouble taking this data seriously, if you're study doesn't include people under the age of 18, then yes, women will own more consoles. Particularly mothers who have no interest in gaming, but bought the console for her children, so she still technically owns a console.

 

3. Pretty vague lists, who'd they poll, where'd they poll and how many people did they poll? Also looking at the best sellers on here, it seems to be dominated by male-oriented games such as GTA, COD, Madden, etc.

 

So yeah, women dominate the casual and mobile market and men dominate the hardcore and blockbusters, nothing really new here.

[maia0407]

Yeah, what he said! Hot transgender manticore privilege has ruined my life! I demand some sort of taxpayer-funded restitution for my mediocre ass! (And I'd accept it in the form of ice cream, if that helps.)

No, no. Bacon restitution for you. Delicious cancer causing bacon.

[maia0407]

Thanks.

 

1. A poll of 4,000 participants isn't really enough to effectively gauge the amount of women playing games. Especially since they account for mobile games such as Candy Crusher and women dominate that market.

 

2. I really have trouble taking this data seriously, if you're study doesn't include people under the age of 18, then yes, women will own more consoles. Particularly mothers who have no interest in gaming, but bought the console for her children, so she still technically owns a console.

 

3. Pretty vague lists, who'd they poll, where'd they poll and how many people did they poll? Also looking at the best sellers on here, it seems to be dominated by male-oriented games such as GTA, COD, Madden, etc.

 

So yeah, women dominate the casual and mobile market and men dominate the hardcore and blockbusters, nothing really new here.

1. The article specifically talks about about half of the women playing console games and not just candy crush. How big of a sample size would you like? How many studies like this would you have to read to accept the data and not just poo poo it away?

 

2. Really, why wouldn't it 'naturally' be adult men that owned more consoles? Why women? Why mothers and not fathers buying the console?

 

ETA:

 

3. That data is from the Entertainment Software Association, the industries largest trade group according to the Washington Post. Here is an article the post wrote about the data:

 

https://www.washingt...s-of-gamergate/

 

So, no, these stats aren't showing the same ole' same ole' trope that women only play casual games on their phone. These studies are from respected trade and research groups showing that women make up half the gaming market and own the majority of consoles.

[Fredward]

Thanks.

 

1. A poll of 4,000 participants isn't really enough to effectively gauge the amount of women playing games. Especially since they account for mobile games such as Candy Crusher and women dominate that market.

 

2. I really have trouble taking this data seriously, if you're study doesn't include people under the age of 18, then yes, women will own more consoles. Particularly mothers who have no interest in gaming, but bought the console for her children, so she still technically owns a console.

 

3. Pretty vague lists, who'd they poll, where'd they poll and how many people did they poll? Also looking at the best sellers on here, it seems to be dominated by male-oriented games such as GTA, COD, Madden, etc.

 

So yeah, women dominate the casual and mobile market and men dominate the hardcore and blockbusters, nothing really new here.

 

About 4000 respondents not being enough...

[Killroy]

How is it moronic to talk about that is in your game ?

No, I think they should market what is present in their game, period.

 

It's moronic to say that they should market every feature just because it's in the game. Reading codex entries is also a part of the game but I don't see you demanding they put that in the trailers.

[Dread-Reaper]

1. The article specifically talks about about half of the women playing console games and not just candy crush. How big of a sample size would you like? How many studies like this would you have to read to accept the data and not just poo poo it away?

 

2. Really, why wouldn't it 'naturally' be adult men that owned more consoles? Why women? Why mothers and not fathers buying the console?

1.Disc-based games, which console and what games? They could have all played Wii Sports and Wii Fit Trainer for all we know.

 

2. Because their are likely more kids playing games some of the most popular games than adults. Mother's usually spoil their sons and fathers usually spoil their daughters. Since boys are playing more games than girls, I'd assume it'd be their mothers buying the games, not their fathers.

 

Edit: I'd probably like about 15k people to be polled from each of the top hardcore and mainstream video game regions before I even consider about actually taking studies like this seriously.

[Vapaa]

It's moronic to say that they should market every feature just because it's in the game. Reading codex entries is also a part of the game but I don't see you demanding they put that in the trailers.

 

Because it's a thread about gender selection and gender selection is a mandatory step of the game ?

 

And in game encyclopedia is definitely worth mention, but that's more supplementary information about the background, which is always featured in marketing.

[78stonewobble]

1.Are you saying that no one should make games that appeal to women as well as men? 2. Are you arguing that FO4 should not advertise the female protagonist? 3. Obviously, gaming companies are picking up on the fact that there is a female market for this or they wouldn't be making games more inclusive. 4 I don't know what else to say as you seem to be implying that women gamers don't exist when they are anywhere from 30 to 50% of the market and that developers should just ignore us in favor of men. 

 

5. You seem to repeatedly miss the point that unfavorable depictions of women in gaming since the beginning of the medium have affected whether or not women play the games. 6. If you drive away women by treating them badly in your games of course you will fulfill your expectations that it's only men who like gaming. 7. The female market has been increasing as woman are treated better in games.

 

8. I don't know where you are getting the idea that developers are being bullied. Merely bringing up the problems of treatment of women in gaming seems to cause people to drag out this idea that we're bullying. 9. Pointing out problems is not bullying or harassment.

 

At any rate, these posts are going around in circles. 10. No one is stealing your cookies by being more inclusive. 11. This whole thread is about a woman being given equal representation in the trailer. I don't know why that threatens so many people.

 

1. No, I've never said that. What I am still trying to say... Is that the demand should follow supply in a free market. Which might mean, that there are more products aimed at one gender or agegroup or sexual orientation or whatever pet people likes best, because there is more demand for something aimed at that. If there is a difference and it is due to supply, it is not discriminatory... It is representative of "the people's" subjective tastes. Basically it doesn't become any more equal or democratic. 

 

2. No, I've never said that, but I hope they do it due to it being actual representative demand and thus being something of equality, rather than it being affording attention to a louder than others minority, which would exactly be discriminatory and sexist. 

 

3. And I'm glad they do. I'm as allways for the best possible things for the most possible amount of people. 

 

4. And I have never said that there are no female gamers or that they should be ignored. First of all, I think those numbers can be a bit wonky, because I've seen surveys where they include stuff like cellphone games and what not and counted that as a gamer. Which is mostly irrelevant for designing eg. AAA title and most certainly not all games have 30-50 percent women. Some will have many more women than men playing and some will have many more men than women playing. I'm saying that there isn't a problem with a game or games meant for men or women or both. It's ok... to have something catering to just one subjective taste, even if it's not mine or yours. 

 

5. No, I'm not... But there is a difference on whether game X is treating women badly and it keeps women from playing game X. Well maybe game X just isn't made for women... If a woman, some women, any number of women then think's, that because game X is treating women badly, then surely game Y must be to and we will not buy game Y (when game Y in reality is made for women or for women in addition to men), that is not really the industry's fault. It means alot of people made a silly generalization. 

 

You don't get to demand that x game should be made for you any more than I get to demand that justin bieber should make hard rock. Sometimes x game or justing bieber just isn't for you or me. 

 

6. I quite agree... but if there is demand for games treating women badly... We will just have to bite that bullet and not judge people's subjective tastes.... And buy something else or nothing at all. 

 

Again... Just because I don't like fish, does not mean that people shouldn't be able to have a fish restaurant or go there to eat. It is none of my business... And just because there are fish restaurantes does not mean their owners are doing it because they dislike me or everyone who doesn't like fish. The world does not revolve around me and my tastes. 

 

7. Does not mean there isn't a market for games treating women badly (or atleast interpreted as treating women badly warranted or not). 

 

8. Have you seen the internet? There is absolutely nooooo bullying going on anywhere? I mean, you ARE insinuating that the gaming industry does not cater to women, due not to marketdemand, but other reasons left unsaid. Gee, I wonder what those unsaid reasons could be? I wonder what it does to any companies sales, or a person reputation, when they get a warranted/unwarranted sticker slapped on from random person Z on the internet that they are being any kind of "ist's"... That is bullying... blackmail... overrepresenting yourself at the cost of others who don't speak up. 

 

9. I agree... but making up a problem, when there might not be one and entirely based on subjetive interpretations, call someone anyone, something reputation destroying... is ... 

 

10. Actually it might... Well, not my cookies... but what happens to the people who likes games treating women badly? Are they just not the right people? They don't have a vote or right to get their products? 

 

Shall I really go out and protest the fishrestaurants and burn em to the ground so that the fishloving people, who suck... can learn to live properly as I see fit?

 

Do we get to impose our will and subjective tastes on others like that? 

 

Sorry, but that is the darkest turn we've taken since... well yeah ok humanity isn't doing that great in general, but we should have learned to do better by now. 

 

11. Because equal might mean inequality... Sorry... but if women only make up eg. 10 percent of a products customers, they don't get to appear in the commercial... It would be disproportionate to their numeric representation among customers and 1 gender is being treated unfairly over the other. Pandered to even... 

 

30-80 percent women among the customers? Sure, slap a woman on the poster or only slap a woman on the poster... 

 

But don't come and want a woman on the poster if it's like eg. 10 percent or less... Unless you're gonna boycot lingeri commercials and products till they get 50 percent men too... Don't be a hypocrite...

 

PS: Also completely neglecting the lacking representations of handicapped people, physically and mentally ill, elderly, kids, homosexuals, bisexuals and we could go on here for quite a while if we need to handle all inequalities, but if you get 50 percent representation no matter how many customers you actually are, then we need all these as well. 

...

 

Personally I refuse to fight for equality via treating people unequally... and I think the only real equality is to judge the people you meet on his/her own individual merit. 

[maia0407]

1.Disc-based games, which console and what games? They could have all played Wii Sports and Wii Fit Trainer for all we know.

 

2. Because their are likely more kids playing games some of the most popular games than adults. Mother's usually spoil their sons and fathers usually spoil their daughters. Since boys are playing more games than girls, I'd assume it'd be their mothers buying the games, not their fathers.

1. So, now, the goal post is moved from women only play casual mobile games to women don't own the right console and don't play the 'right' games on the console. Come on. The point being made is that women are a market of gamers that developers can and should take into consideration when producing and advertising their games. And, clearly, that is exactly what is happening.

 

2. Please back up that opinion with data.

 

Oh, and see my edited post above for response to 3.

[SmilesJA]

No, but they take his puppet/mouthpiece seriously.

 

You'd be surprised how many people take Mcintosh seriously.