410 réponses à ce sujet

[Qis]

A couple dozen JRPG titles that all employ technology fueled by magic would like to have word with you.

 

In some settings, magic can be random and have no limitations.  In others, magic runs on distinct rules and can be evaluated as a science.  DA falls into the latter category.

 

Besides, I don't recall technology advancing much between any of the installments of the games you mentioned, so is science not just as stagnant in those worlds?

 

In Skyrim, TES universe, the "Dwarves" are so advance in technology, they are gnostic, and they are so advance which lead to them disappear from Mundus. The reason why they are so advance because they want to replace Gods, they create golems, a life from non-living materials (basically robots). Their disappearace that make the world stagnant, otherwise Skyrim is highly technological

 

Bethesda is wise in that matter, they leave out science and so magical world have sense. technology vanished as "Dwarven" people vanish, and so magic is relevent no matter how suck Skyrim magic is. And they include the Thu'um, the shout, ancient magic of a sort of the Nords

 

If the "Dwarves" still exist in Skyrim, then Thu'um lost it's charm and not relevent, storywise. because they are so advance to the point where they could replace Gods with their science

[Aren]

So what? That doesn't mean that people can't work out new ways to manipulate magic, create new spells that affect the world in unique ways.

The core concept of magic is drawing the energy of the Fade into the real world and using it to manipulate it.  All that it takes is for someone to think of a new approach for the study and use of magic to take a new direction and invent new, possibly better ways to utilize it.

 

If you're going to insist on splitting hairs between magic and spells, I must insist that you do the same between science and technology.  The progression from musket balls to bullets isn't science.  Science is a methodology, technological advancement is its product.  Magic is energy, a spell is a way to manipulate it.  That Alexius' spell required the breach is not the point.  That was only a power requirement, the point is that he created something entirely new, that advancement and new ways to manipulate magic are possible.  Other advancements needn't require such overwhelming power.

 

But magic, this manipulation of energy, does run on rules in the setting.  As long as it runs on rules it can be studied, understood, predicted and manipulated.  That's what science is all about.  And just like any scientific understanding of the universe, those rules can be disproven and reevaluated.

The basic procedure that allows the discovery of a physical law is the experimental method.

For a given phenomenon can be identified those which may be the fundamental magnitudes, and it performs the measurement through a clear and repeatable method.

The law is a quantitative law, that is expressed through the language of mathematics, that is the operational definition of a physical law assessed by the scientific method,which lead us to technology.

Technology is science  since its methodology pertains to it.

Which are the fundamental magnitudes of magic?

Magic is not energy.

Energy is a property of objects(And cannot be separated from them by a "veil" ,not a property of the "fade" like magic) which can be transferred to other objects or converted into different forms, but cannot be created or destroyed.

Summon Animals,lighting bolts,fireballs from nowhere is not energy is magic.

Which are the fundamental magnitudes of magic?

Its unit of measurements?

The breach was not a power requirement for Alexius,since he manipulated the time itself,and as far as i'm concerned time can be only influenced by gravity and the speed of the subject,but in no way this will lead to a time travel.

 

 

-But magic, this manipulation of energy, does run on rules in the setting.  As long as it runs on rules it can be studied, understood, predicted and .manipulated.  That's what science is all about.  And just like any scientific understanding of the universe, those rules can be disproven and reevaluated.

 

Magic is not energy,and it does not run on any rule other than wish and dream,it does not possess any fundamental magnitudes and cannot be studied with the scientific methodology,like the writers through some vocal mages like Dorian,Solas,Morrigan,ecc.. would lead us to believe

[Illegitimus]

In Skyrim, TES universe, the "Dwarves" are so advance in technology, they are gnostic, and they are so advance which lead to them disappear from Mundus. The reason why they are so advance because they want to replace Gods, they create golems, a life from non-living materials (basically robots). Their disappearace that make the world stagnant, otherwise Skyrim is highly technological

 

Bethesda is wise in that matter, they leave out science and so magical world have sense. technology vanished as "Dwarven" people vanish, and so magic is relevent no matter how suck Skyrim magic is. And so they include the Thu'um, the shout, ancient magic of a sort of the Nords

 

If the "Dwarves" still exist in Skyrim, then Thu'um lost it's charm and not relevent, storywise. because they are so advance to the point where they could replace Gods with their science

 

That is of course nonsense.  Even in real life gods have not become obsolete.  People remain believers and impressed by them.  

[Heimdall]

In Skyrim, TES universe, the "Dwarves" are so advance in technology, they are gnostic, and they are so advance which lead to them disappear from Mundus. The reason why they are so advance because they want to replace Gods, they create golems, a life from non-living materials. Their disappearace that make the world stagnant, otherwise Skyrim is highly technological

 

Bethesda is wise in that matter, they leave out science and so magical world have sense. technology vanished as "Dwarven" people vanish, and so magic is relevent no matter how suck Skyrim magic is. And so they include the Thu'um, the shout, ancient magic of a sort of the Nords

 

If the "Dwarves" still exist in Skyrim, then Thu'um lost it's charm and not relevent, storywise. because they are so advance to the point where they could replace Gods with their science

...If the dwarves and their advanced technology were still around, the setting would be very different.  It would have different themes and stories that make sense in it.

 

It doesn't mean that setting with both magic and technology would be inferior or lose all charm, it just wouldn't be a standard fantasy setting... some might consider that a positive.

 

And the idea that belief in a higher power must be abandoned to pursue technological advancement?  Utter bullshit.

[Heimdall]

 

The basic procedure that allows the discovery of a physical law is the experimental method.

For a given phenomenon can be identified those which may be the fundamental magnitudes, and it performs the measurement through a clear and repeatable method.

The law is a quantitative law, that is expressed through the language of mathematics, that is the operational definition of a physical law assessed by the scientific method,which lead us to technology.

Technology is science  since its methodology pertains to it.

Which are the fundamental magnitudes of magic?

Magic is not energy.

Energy is a property of objects(And cannot be separated from them by a "veil" ,not a property of the "fade" like magic) which can be transferred to other objects or converted into different forms, but cannot be created or destroyed.

Summon Animals,lighting bolts,fireballs from nowhere is not energy is magic.

Which are the fundamental magnitudes of magic?

Its unit of measurements?

The breach was not a power requirement for Alexius,since he manipulated the time itself,and as far as i'm concerned time can be only influenced by gravity and the speed of the subject,but in no way this will lead to a time travel.

 

 

-But magic, this manipulation of energy, does run on rules in the setting.  As long as it runs on rules it can be studied, understood, predicted and .manipulated.  That's what science is all about.  And just like any scientific understanding of the universe, those rules can be disproven and reevaluated.

 

Magic is not energy,and it does not run on any rule other than wish and dream,it does not possess any fundamental magnitudes and cannot be studied with the scientific methodology,like the writers through some vocal mages like Dorian,Solas,Morrigan,ecc.. would lead us to believe

 

...I don't think we've been playing the same game series, because you clearly haven't been paying attention to the way magic works.  Magic isn't free form "make a wish and it will happen", it follows rules and structures.  Those spells we cast?  Those were developed and created by mages of ages past who discovered ways to manipulate the energies of the fade (Yes, they are called energy in setting, and no they don't follow the laws of physics as we understand them, but that doesn't mean they don't follow any rules).  Why are magic rituals filled with special symbols, incantations, and the like?  Because these things help channel the magic toward specific effects.  Why?  Because magic follows rules.  How do they know?  Because they experimented.  That method of study and experimentation is in fact scientific methodology, just applied to a field that doesn't exist in our world and doesn't follow the same rules as the rest of reality.

[Qis]

That is of course nonsense.  Even in real life gods have not become obsolete.  People remain believers and impressed by them.  

 

But the degree of believe in God/Gods is not the same today as the ancient peoples, people just need justifications, reasons, "it is God who help me with this" while obviously science does that, and so the priest say "God work in mysterious way..."

 

Take a note that "Dwarves" of Skyrim are not atheists, they believe in the existence of Gods because Gods in TES universe is as real as you can commune with them or get their blessing physically by touching their shrines, means you don't need to believe you are blessed, you are blessed. They just want to compete Gods and prove that they can be Gods themselves by using science. They are gnostic, they believe in the existence of Gods but they don't believe the Gods are all powerful, science can replace the magic of the Gods.

 

And they prove it, they are so advanced and no one reaching the same level, they rival the Gods, they are like the Atlantis. Should they still exist, magic is irrelevent in the world of TES.

[Illegitimus]

But the degree of believe in God/Gods is not the same today as the ancient peoples, people just need justifications, reasons, "it is God who help me with this" while obviously science does that, and so the priest say "God work in mysterious way..."

 

Take a note that "Dwarves" of Skyrim are not atheists, they believe in the existence of Gods because Gods in TES universe is as real as you can commune with them or get their blessing physically by touching their shrines, means you don't need to believe you are blessed, you are blessed. They just want to compete Gods and prove that they can be Gods themselves by using science. They are gnostic, they believe in the existence of Gods but they don't believe the Gods are all powerful, science can replace the magic of the Gods.

 

And they prove it, they are so advanced and no one reaching the same level, they rival the Gods, they are like the Atlantis. Should they still exist, magic is irrelevent in the world of TES.

 

That is of course nonsense.  The possession of superhuman powers is not invalidated by the existence of advanced tools.  

[Medhia_Nox]

@Qis:  You know "golems" aren't science right?  Not sure what kind of science they teach where you live... but it usually doesn't involve sorcery.

 

And aren't the Skyrim dwarves extinct?  Hardly what I'd call... superior. 

 

----

 

The Warhammer universe - both Fantasy and 40K are both technologically past Thedas... and magic still exists.

 

This notion that magic will be beaten by science is... just weird.

[Qis]

@Qis:  You know "golems" aren't science right?  Not sure what kind of science they teach where you live... but it usually doesn't involve sorcery.

 

And aren't the Skyrim dwarves extinct?  Hardly what I'd call... superior. 

 

It is called golems, but they are obviously steam engine robots and how they work is an ancient technology mystery

 

They vanished because of they activate a machine powered by the heart of a God or something...to save themselves from a mega threat of the world in their time

[MrObnoxiousUK]

Even if the Qunari know how to make Gatlok and early cannons. These were very resource intensive,historically bell founders were used to cast cannons to begin with and many of them would burst or explode after firing.

We don't even know what is analogous to modern gunpowder when looking at Gatlok,is it fine,coarse,milled,caked. We have no idea. 

The Dwarves level of technology equals or eclipses Qunari,they don't have Gatlok,but they very are close (Awakenings) Lyrium based exposives seem to be even more powerful. Hell Minrathous is protected by giant Dwarf made Golems.

[Heimdall]

But the degree of believe in God/Gods is not the same today as the ancient peoples, people just need justifications, reasons, "it is God who help me with this" while obviously science does that, and so the priest say "God work in mysterious way..."

 

Take a note that "Dwarves" of Skyrim are not atheists, they believe in the existence of Gods because Gods in TES universe is as real as you can commune with them or get their blessing physically by touching their shrines, means you don't need to believe you are blessed, you are blessed. They just want to compete Gods and prove that they can be Gods themselves by using science. They are gnostic, they believe in the existence of Gods but they don't believe the Gods are all powerful, science can replace the magic of the Gods.

 

And they prove it, they are so advanced and no one reaching the same level, they rival the Gods, they are like the Atlantis. Should they still exist, magic is irrelevent in the world of TES.

So because the dwarves of one setting built a golem (Powered by the heart of a God i might add) then mystically fused themselves with it, technology and magic are incompatible?  This being the same Dwemer who created at least several pieces of technology that employ mystical energy?

 

...You really must be Qistina, I remember a conversation we had when you started using hollywood movie plots as proof of hisorical facts.

[Heimdall]

It is called golems, but they are obviously steam engine robots and how they work is an ancient technology mystery

 

They vanished because of they activate a machine powered by the heart of a God or something...to save themselves from a mega threat of the world in their time

That machine was their artificial God, which totally backfired and annihilated their civilization.  And that threat was their Daedra worshiping Chimer neighbors.

[Aeratus]

In Skyrim, TES universe, the "Dwarves" are so advance in technology, they are gnostic, and they are so advance which lead to them disappear from Mundus. The reason why they are so advance because they want to replace Gods, they create golems, a life from non-living materials (basically robots). Their disappearace that make the world stagnant, otherwise Skyrim is highly technological

 

Bethesda is wise in that matter, they leave out science and so magical world have sense. technology vanished as "Dwarven" people vanish, and so magic is relevent no matter how suck Skyrim magic is. And they include the Thu'um, the shout, ancient magic of a sort of the Nords

 

If the "Dwarves" still exist in Skyrim, then Thu'um lost it's charm and not relevent, storywise. because they are so advance to the point where they could replace Gods with their science

 

The Dwemer is one of my least favorite aspects of TES. They have big steam-operated robots that probably weigh 25 tons...and somehow you are able to destroy a 25 ton robot by wacking it with a shortsword.

[Qis]

So because the dwarves of one setting built a golem (Powered by the heart of a God i might add) then mystically fused themselves with it, technology and magic are incompatible?  This being the same Dwemer who created at least several pieces of technology that employ mystical energy?

 

The golems are not powered by the heart of a God, but a thing called Dynamo Core and steam engine, it's "science fiction"

[Medhia_Nox]

Ahh... "technology works in mysterious ways" eh?  

 

It's clearly magical friend... I fought plenty of them in Skyrim and they're obviously magical... technology just doesn't work when creating self-powered steam engineered robots that fire energy blasts and have no circuitry what-so-ever but are still capable of appearing sentient.

[Heimdall]

The golems are not powered by the heart of a God, but a thing called Dynamo Core and steam engine, it's "science fiction"

Their so called artificial god you were going on about certainly was mystical, their greatest achievement, powered by the Heart of Lorkhan.  There was also the Aetherium Forge, and its products, all using a magical material to make mystical artifacts.  Or the Oculory, built to help view Elder Scrolls without experiencing blindness.

 

The Dwemer didn't have a problem with magic.

[Qis]

Their so called artificial god you were going on about certainly was mystical, their greatest achievement, powered by the Heart of Lorkhan.  There was also the Aetherium Forge, and its products, all using a magical material to make mystical artifacts.  Or the Oculory, built to help view Elder Scrolls without experiencing blindness.

 

The Dwemer didn't have a problem with magic.

 

It's not magic, it's science, they just use whatever they get in the name of science

[Realmzmaster]

No, i am saying if i put my faith in God and God will cure me, i will not go to the hospital and not taking any medicine. The same if i have healing magic. I won't bother to learn science for that matter.

 

I go to the hospital because there is no miracle and no magic.

 

Incorrect, You do know that in the Bible Luke was a physician and he took care of the physical illnesses of the apostles and others that were not miraculous cured. Putting faith in God does not preclude going to the doctor or using science.

 

Since the Bible says that God is the creator of all creation that also means God created science. Therefore the two cannot be at odds with one another since the same being created both.

 

Also People have been saying science will kill religion and the bible for centuries, but for some strange reason the corpse will not stay dead.

[Qis]

Incorrect, You do know that in the Bible Luke was a physician and he took care of the physical illnesses of the apostles and others that were not miraculous cured. Putting faith in God does not preclude going to the doctor or using science.

 

 

Luke don't live at the time of Jesus...

 

None of the Gospel writers live at the time of Jesus, if they did, they won't contradict....all these Gospel writers are fiction characters

[Heimdall]

It's not magic, it's science, they just use whatever they get in the name of science

Even if it's magic. Aetherium is explicitly a magical substance. So are Elder Scrolls.

[BSpud]

HEY GUYS, I HAVE A TOTALLY MADE-UP, ARBITRARY RULE THAT "FIXES" SOMEBODY ELSE'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, HERE'S 10 PAGES OF MY PERSONAL DELUSION FOR YOU TO ENJOY.

[Qis]

Alright i want to give a conclusion, science and magic cannot get along because these two are opposite value, science based on reasons and facts while magic based on imagination and belief. The same goes to religion.

 

So when science at the raise, the other value will drop, because of progression to become better and better, it comes from reasoning. People will find own way to solve problems in everyday life. People start thinking and make things better and better.

 

When magic/religion at the raise, science will drop, because of being stagnant, it comes from belief/faith. People still depends on higher power to solve problems in everyday life. People don't do anything but instead seeking higher power for help.

 

You may find a middle way, but it will eventually destroy each other. And this is true historically and still true today.

[Heimdall]

Alright i want to give a conclusion, science and magic cannot get along because these two are opposite value, science based on reasons and facts while magic based on imagination and belief.

Every part of this statement is false. As is everything following it.

Ah, how I have in no way shape or form missed Qistina threads...

[Qis]

Why indegenious tribes don't progress? It is because they have shamans, when they have problems, they seek their shamans, these shamans will call for spirits to help them in many ways, to heal, to make hunting easier, to make crops grow richly, to calm the sea...ect...they don't need science because they only need their shamans...the higher power will help them in all the problems in their lives

 

Europe going into Dark Age because of priests dictate salvation only come through God, anyone who say otherwise will be burned as heretic. It is only when people protest and leave the Church dominion Europeans start to progress, the Protestant movement and later secularism movement.

 

Muslims at the start going through golden age because of having liberal minded in religion, they are newly convert into new liberal religion unlike the old conservative religion of the Pagan. But then there are fanatics among the religious authority who start talking like Catholic priests among Muslims, they labelled all the knowledge outside the holy book are not from Allah, those Muslim scientists are heretics...and so Muslims going into Dark Age up to today...

 

It is always like this and forever like this

[Illegitimus]

Alright i want to give a conclusion, science and magic cannot get along because these two are opposite value, science based on reasons and facts while magic based on imagination and belief. T

 

You have a rather narrow concept of both things.