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Reason why gun is not supposed to be in Dragon Age


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#276
Heimdall

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No reason why the Tempest thing cannot being applied at gunmen, or a person with a gun, or cannon...

 

Dragon Age : The Avengers confirmed

So what?

 

You claimed that now archery is "as awesome as magic" now, but you're wrong, because that is magic.  It isn't a feat of primitive technology, its magic.  A primitive gun wouldn't need to be more because primitive guns weren't better than bows.  And somehow, you say, this magic will lead to the destruction of magic and religion...  Which is probably one of the most far fetched leaps of logic I have ever heard.

 

Ah, I can't tell if you're troling or just totally incapable of using logical thought.  But since I've poked holes in your logic, I'm sure you will ignore me so you can live in your denial headspace, rather than confront criticism.



#277
MyKingdomCold

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Why are you still bothering with her? She's either a Troll or someone who ignores facts so she can continue spouting the same things over and over about how science will destroy religion and magic. Either way a waste of time
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#278
TobiTobsen

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No reason why the Tempest thing cannot being applied at gunmen, or a person with a gun, or cannon...

 

Reloading...



#279
CardButton

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Why are you still bothering with her? She's either a Troll or someone who ignores facts so she can continue spouting the same things over and over about how science will destroy religion and magic. Either way a waste of time

Darnit now I have this stupid song stuck in my head lol.   :wacko:

 

"This is the thread that never ends, Qis just goes on and on my friends"

"Some people started commenting not knowing what it was, but they'll continue commenting forever just because."

 

"This is the thread that never ends, Qis just goes on and on my friends"...



#280
Heimdall

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Why are you still bothering with her? She's either a Troll or someone who ignores facts so she can continue spouting the same things over and over about how science will destroy religion and magic. Either way a waste of time

I really should stop, I know...



#281
Qis

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So what?

 

You claimed that now archery is "as awesome as magic" now, but you're wrong, because that is magic.  It isn't a feat of primitive technology, its magic.  A primitive gun wouldn't need to be more because primitive guns weren't better than bows.  And somehow, you say, this magic will lead to the destruction of magic and religion...  Which is probably one of the most far fetched leaps of logic I have ever heard.

 

Ah, I can't tell if you're troling or just totally incapable of using logical thought.  But since I've poked holes in your logic, I'm sure you will ignore me so you can live in your denial headspace, rather than confront criticism.

 

So Tempest specialization is magic now...?

 

Good to know.....

 

Western people have worse denial syndrome...you guys should seek Jesus for salvation...



#282
Andraste_Reborn

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So Tempest specialization is magic now...?

 

Good to know.....

 

 

Yep. It's a specialisation based on coating yourself in magical alchemical elixirs.

 

Western people have worse denial syndrome...you guys should seek Jesus for salvation...

 

I'm good, thanks.


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#283
Illegitimus

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No reason why the Tempest thing cannot being applied at gunmen, or a person with a gun, or cannon...

 

Dragon Age : The Avengers confirmed

 

Actually there is.  Guns work by making a certain substance ignite.  Coating yourself and everything you hold in fire or ice would ensure that guns won't work.  



#284
Heimdall

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So Tempest specialization is magic now...?
 
Good to know.....

 Yes, if you actually looked into the lore instead of posting pictures of lasers, you would know that.  Tempest abilities come from the consumption of clearly mystical elixirs.  It isn't because of mad archery skillz.

Western people have worse denial syndrome...

I'm sure it makes you feel better to think that.



#285
AlanC9

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Ah, I can't tell if you're troling or just totally incapable of using logical thought. But since I've poked holes in your logic, I'm sure you will ignore me so you can live in your denial headspace, rather than confront criticism.

I have to go with the latter. Trolls typically at least fake a response to criticism.

Unless he's just bad at trolling, which is a possibility. But I think we are having a genuine failure to communicate here.

#286
Qis

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 Yes, if you actually looked into the lore instead of posting pictures of lasers, you would know that.  Tempest abilities come from the consumption of clearly mystical elixirs.  It isn't because of mad archery skillz.

 

Tempest is a ROGUE specialization, and elixir is alchemy

 

Alchemy is old chemistry, it's science

 

Try to deny this



#287
AlanC9

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Tempest is a ROGUE specialization, and elixir is alchemy

Alchemy is old chemistry, it's science

Try to deny this

This simply isn't true in Thedas. Or if it is true, then there's never been any distinction between magic and science in Thedas. See, for instance, Dagna. I could go with the latter position, since the distinction between magic snd science in a world with functioning magic is nonsense anyway.
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#288
FemShem

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When did we have fireworks?  Not a very useful weapon, pretty though.  Wasn't that 900 CE?  Gun powder doesn't seem to be that much more stable than lyrium and summoning a demon seems to work 100 percent of the time for mayhem to ensue even for angry beginners...i.e. Orsino boss DA2.



#289
Realmzmaster

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The name Luke only appear 3 times in the Bible, one the physician, one as travelng companion of St Paul, and lastly as one of St Paul workers and a Gentile....which Luke is Gospel according to Luke writer?

 

They are all the same person. If you notice Paul refers to Luke as the beloved Physician in Colossians 4:14. Luke was with Paul on his missionary journeys since he also is mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:11 and Philemon 24. He therefore has first hand knowledge to write the book of Acts. The book of Acts goes from third person to first person plural showing that Luke has joined Paul on his journeys.

 

If you say that the writers are fictional characters then you just dismissed the entirety of the New Testament and Jesus, because nowhere in the Old Testament is the name Jesus mentioned.

 

You still have not answered my question. If God is the creator of all that means he created magic, science and religion why would they be at odds with one another?



#290
Heimdall

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Tempest is a ROGUE specialization, and elixir is alchemy

 

Alchemy is old chemistry, it's science

 

Try to deny this

Alchemy is a precursor to chemistry rooted in a mixture of fact and mysticism.  Fun fact, Isaac Newton was fascinated by alchemy.  He wasted years of his life trying to create a philosopher's stone, the formula to which he believed was hidden in Bible verses.  All of these efforts failed as did all alchemical attempts to transmute lead to gold.  Alchemy wasn't a true science in our world (A pseudoscience at best), but we aren't talking about our world.  In Thedas, magic isn't a matter of belief, it's observable fact.  Alchemy in Thedas is not the alchemy of our world.

 

So yes, the elixir that coats people in fire that doesn't harm them is magical.  That really shouldn't need to be said.  One doesn't need to be a mage to use a magical item.


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#291
Qis

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Alchemy is a precursor to chemistry rooted in a mixture of fact and mysticism.  Fun fact, Isaac Newton was fascinated by alchemy.  He wasted years of his life trying to create a philosopher's stone, the formula to which he believed was hidden in Bible verses.  All of these efforts failed as did all alchemical attempts to transmute lead to gold.  Alchemy wasn't a true science in our world (A pseudoscience at best), but we aren't talking about our world.  In Thedas, magic isn't a matter of belief, it's observable fact.  Alchemy in Thedas is not the alchemy of our world.

 

So yes, the elixir that coats people in fire that doesn't harm them is magical.  That really shouldn't need to be said.  One doesn't need to be a mage to use a magical item.

 

What are you saying? Magic or pseudo-science or science? lol You just prove yourself a worse case of denial syndrome

 

Alchemy is an old form of modern chemistry, it was Arabic "Al-Khemyya", means "Of the Khemyt". This knowledge was from Khemyt, Egypt. The Arabs learn this knowledge, expand it and called it "the knowledge of the people of Khemyt", simply "Al-Khemyya". Later it going to Europe through trade, conquest, stealing and reverse technology, and many other ways, Europeans call it "Alchemy", which lead to modern Chemistry. As you can simply realized that in chemistry there are a lot of Arabic words in use such as Alcohol derived from Al-Khul...

 

It is NOT magic or pseudo-science, it just series of experiments, some failed, some succesful. The myth surround it was the creation of the Church and Renaissance people. They attribute Alchemy to witches, wizards and so on.

 

And it is an interesting fact, Church label it as magic because it was the knowledge from Muslims in that era, and Muslims are horned devils roaming Jerusalem dancing on fire....so they demonize Alchemy making a myth about it...anyone who study it being burned as heretic and witches. While in Renaissance era, western people just want to glorify modernism, making distiction between old knowledge and new one, the old ones are superstition while the modern one is the real science.



#292
Ashagar

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If you want to talk about a real interesting fact, the catholic church wouldn't have referred to something as witchcraft or magic because they pointedly viewed the belief in witches and witchcraft as nothing but pagan superstition.



#293
Heimdall

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What are you saying? Magic or pseudo-science or science? lol You just prove yourself a worse case of denial syndrome

 

Alchemy is an old form of modern chemistry, it was Arabic "Al-Khemyya", means "Of the Khemyt". This knowledge was from Khemyt, Egypt. The Arabs learn this knowledge, expand it and called it "the knowledge of the people of Khemyt", simply "Al-Khemyya". Later it going to Europe through trade, conquest, stealing and reverse technology, and many other ways, Europeans call it "Alchemy", which lead to modern Chemistry. As you can simply realized that in chemistry there are a lot of Arabic words in use such as Alcohol derived from Al-Khul...

 

It is NOT magic or pseudo-science, it just series of experiments, some failed, some succesful. The myth surround it was the creation of the Church and Renaissance people. They attribute Alchemy to witches, wizards and so on.

 

And it is an interesting fact, Church label it as magic because it was the knowledge from Muslims in that era, and Muslims are horned devils roaming Jerusalem dancing on fire....so they demonize Alchemy making a myth about it...anyone who study it being burned as heretic and witches. While in Renaissance era, western people just want to glorify modernism, making distiction between old knowledge and new one, the old ones are superstition while the modern one is the real science.

Again, what am I denying?

 

Have I denied that alchemy was a precursor to chemistry?  No.  Have I denied that it has roots in the muslim world?  No (Though its completely irrelevant and really the roots go back to Hellenistic Egypt, where it was formed from a mixture of technology, mythology, greek philosophy and religion.  The central figure of the western alchemical mythos was Hermes Trismegitus, a combination of the Egyptian god Toth and the Greek god Hermes believed to have authored the original texts on alchemy and prophesied the birth of Christianity.  Do you still think this is a science?)

 

But I deny that it was science to our modern understanding, certainly as it was practiced by Europeans, who, as in the case of Isaac Newton, were often quite devout Christians that believed Alchemy could be used to purify the human body and soul (Hence the singular obsession with creating the Philosopher's Stone).  They did experiment with chemicals, but then used it to form metaphysical theories about the functions of the universe.  Some thought they could use the Philosopher's Stone to communicate with angels.  In the Renaissance, Alchemy took on more and more occult tones as time went on even as some produced practical results.  Chemistry and Alchemy most certainly were not the same thing.

 

At best I would say it resides in a gray area, not quite a science but a stepping stone for chemistry.  There's a reason European interest in Alchemy virtually evaporated with the rise of modern science, because it wasn't a scientific practice.

 

And you're wrong about the Church proclaiming it devilry, they never did any such thing, actually one of the first European works mentioning Alchemy was written by a monk for the Pope as part of a project for restoring the medieval university curriculum.  I know you like bashing the church and western civilization in general, but please stick to the facts.

If you want to talk about a real interesting fact, the catholic church wouldn't have referred to something as witchcraft or magic because they pointedly viewed the belief in witches and witchcraft as nothing but pagan superstition.

Well, they didn't in the Middle Ages.  There was a bit of a witch craze in the Renaissance period but the medieval church maintained that witchcraft was nothing but superstition.


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#294
Ashagar

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Yes but witch hunting was generally more of of a protestant craze, the Catholic church was far more concerned about heresy such as the various forms of Protestantism and the the fact that the Turks were overrunning Christendom even as it tor itself apart with heresy then they were about witches.


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#295
Heimdall

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Yes but witch hunting was generally more of of a protestant craze, the Catholic church was far more concerned about heresy such as the various forms of Protestantism and the the fact that the Turks were overrunning Christendom even as it tor itself apart with heresy then they were about witches.

Fair enough



#296
Qis

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And you're wrong about the Church proclaiming it devilry, they never did any such thing, actually one of the first European works mentioning Alchemy was written by a monk for the Pope as part of a project for restoring the medieval university curriculum.  I know you like bashing the church and western civilization in general, but please stick to the facts.

Well, they didn't in the Middle Ages.  There was a bit of a witch craze in the Renaissance period but the medieval church maintained that witchcraft was nothing but superstition.

 

Ever heard "Inquisition"? Many people who going through Inquisition are out of false accusations. Practicing chemistry alone could make you being accused of being a witch and burned at the stake. The accusation not nessessarily comes from the Church but by anyone, your rival maybe, anyone who ****** off at you. They see you concocting something in your personal lab in your home, they call it magic and Inquisitors will knock on your door...

 

The Church is power in medieval time, they control everything, politic, economy, social. They who make laws. Monasteries own lands and become enterprise by their own. They are super rich. You can't build anything if not get permission by the Church. You think you want to build windmill to grind your grain? No, that windwill will be burn out if the Church don't approve. And this is historically accurate, not an accusation. This is the Dark Age, and this is why Europe are so backward compared with the east during that time...

 



#297
Ashagar

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Sigh setting aside your approaching delusional views on the catholic church and western civilization, the inquisitions were religious courts mostly controlled by the church except in the Spanish kingdoms where they were controlled by the Spanish crowns instead.

 

Being courts meant they handled everything from minor matters such as religious disputes, more serious matters such as questions of religious law and doctrine to major matters such as Heresy. the vast majority of the people who went up in front of a inquisition were never tortured or even in danger of being tortured or turned over to the secular authorities to be put to death(Heresy was a legal crime against the state and it was the state not the church that put people to death) and indeed it was considered a failure of someone was turned over to the secular authorities who would put them to death.

 

Also as noted before the church was concerned with matters of heresy not magic which they pointedly viewed as being delusional and making false accusations while it did happen was also a good way for someone to be dragged in front of a inquisition themselves because the church took a very dim view of false charges.

 

As for witch-hunts and trials those were primary carried by secular authorities not the church authorities who usually shut them down when they got wind of them.


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#298
BansheeOwnage

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Tempest archers are consuming magical elixirs to do what they do, archery works the same.

Just nitpicking that you don't actually consume them, you just coat yourself in them. Smash a glass!

 

But yes, it's alchemical, which in Dragon Age can be magical, just like things we've had since DA:O like the Rock Armor tonic. This isn't new.


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#299
giveamanafish...

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What i mean is the whole premise will fall, when you put science in magical world, it will destroy magic, these two just can't mix.

 

Everything related with magic will be nullified by the existence of gun powder, like what i already mentioned in the first post

 

Anders is an evidence for that, if he can create such powerful bomb using sella petrae and some drake poop, every Mages logically know that, and this alone making gun powder of Qunari not as awesome

This is not a magical recipe. It's based on a real life recipe for black powder still used in our world.  Although I think Anders added some magic to the compound in order to give it the level of explosive power it had. It's just chemistry. In my real life, I had a childhood friend who used this very recipe (using our world version of the ingredients) to make old style gun powder. We actually tried several times to make a explosive device with this stuff, luckily we never succeeded. My friend really wasn't a scientist, he had just found the recipe in a boy scout manual or something and just liked tinkering with it -- old style alchemist I suppose. I was just there to hang out.

 

Isn't the real magic world in the Fade? Thedas is just where a normal world in the physical realm where magic is practiced. The ability to use magic seems to relate to being able to make some kind of contact with the Fade, often assisted by lyrium or rock fairy blood.



#300
AlanC9

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Do we have a coherent definition of "magic" we can use here? Science is easy enough since we can just map the RW equivalent onto Thedas, but what counts as "magic"? Anything involving the fade and/or lyrium? Can we keep those from ending up as particular branches of science? Should we?

(Qis isn't interesting anymore, but these strike me as worth talking about.)