410 réponses à ce sujet

[renfrees]

Why are you all feeding this troll for 4 pages? He'll just repeat his nonsense over and over no matter what you say and what arguments you bring. If you think you're going to have a productive discussion with him, you're up for a rude awakening.

[Ariella]

Sorry if someone else already mentioned this, but I couldn't let this slide. How many thousands of years do you think human civilization has existed in reality? And when did modern weapons begin to exist? (Hint: there's a huge gap. HUGE.)

For example, mass infantry charges went the way of the dodo in World War One.

In fact the advances in warfighting tech were what made WW1 so horrific, and no one really saw it coming.

[leaguer of one]

For example, mass infantry charges went the way of the dodo in World War One.
In fact the advances in warfighting tech were what made WW1 so horrific, and no one really saw it coming.

ironicly the war of the lions in Orlas had the same issues.

[Qis]

Why are you all feeding this troll for 4 pages? He'll just repeat his nonsense over and over no matter what you say and what arguments you bring. If you think you're going to have a productive discussion with him, you're up for a rude awakening.

 

 I am a woman...

[leaguer of one]

I am a woman...

Not making much of differed to the point.

[Qis]

So BSN don't change much after 5 years....

 

No wonder Bioware keep making shitty games...

[leaguer of one]

So BSN don't change much after 5 years....

It changed enough to know that magic can exist with science.

[lynroy]

I'm just jazzed to be here.

[Gileadan]

Gameplay wise, guns could be given the same ridiculous performance as bows and Bianca, with hails of bullets or grapeshot that are just as over the top as the effects you get with current ranged weapons in DAI. So all those arguments about the drawbacks that early gunpowder weapons had in reality don't really apply in this game, since it doesn't give a crap about that level of realism anyway.  If a bow can do it, why not a gun?

 

The only reasons not to have guns, in my opinion, would be those:

 

1) lore - only Qunari have gunpowder (why no lyrium based propellant, though? dwarves can be machinegunners too, after all)

2) eeep, effort! Another weapon model to create!

[Ariella]

The only reasons not to have guns, in my opinion, would be those:
 
1) lore - only Qunari have gunpowder (why no lyrium based propellant, though? dwarves can be machinegunners too, after all)
2) eeep, effort! Another weapon model to create!

Lyrium based explosive are unstable. They've said it time and again. It's said in DAA, in DA 2, and in DAI.

[Gileadan]

Lyrium based explosive are unstable. They've said it time and again. It's said in DAA, in DA 2, and in DAI.

Yeah. Yet we get accident free lyrium based explosions and dwarven machinegunners in Descent who don't blow themselves up. A few of those guns could be brought back and reverse engineered, XCOM style.

 

Heck, even Anders somehow graduated in Chemistry of Thedas and made a bomb of epic proportions (which I'm sure is explained away as "somehow magicky" since I doubt the Qunari handed him the gaatlok formula or the dwarves carted a load of lyrium into the Chantry... so this was most likely done by the power of the plot hole).

[Typhrus]

Alright, so I can get the forum to play nice with multi-quotes, so I'll have to do this by memory.

 

I'd say that Avatar: The Last Airbender and its sequel series The Legend of Korra is a good example of magic and technology co-existing and adapting. In Airbender, there was admittedly less technology about for the most part, but as the series developed we saw more and more technology being used. Right off the bat we see that the Fire Nation has coal powered naval warships, in a world where catapults, spears, bows and arrows and other 'primitive' weapons are being used. Examples of other technologies throughout the series is armoured vehicles/tanks, but for them to be offensive weapons, benders were still required. War Balloons can be operated via technology or a fire bender creating fire for hot air to make it fly. The war balloon also had a zeppelin cousin, that admittedly is more technologically based, to be used as a weapon it needed people on it to bend the elements. So even in this universe, technology did not automatically defeat the idea of being able to magically manipulate the elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth for those that aren't familiar with the series.) Korra goes to even more extremes with technology being present, but bending still being incredibly relevant.

 

In Korra, we have all those key technological advances from Airbender, but made better. All the nations have ships that are not reliant upon wind power and are presumably powered by coal or fire benders. We have cars that are mass produced and improved airships and none of these have made bending the elements obsolete, nor in the foreseeable future of that world either. In other parts we see machine and bender being used in equal parts to make said machine function (like people using lightning to operate and power some sort of machine). Hell we even get 'mecha-tanks' that actually remind me somewhat of Bioshock's Big Daddies, being invented and still being able to be easily taken out by bending. So to make the argument that in a world where technology is not stagnate because of 'magic', and that technology is inherently superior is simply wrong. Kaiser Shep is quite correct that the series also explores the concept of technology and ordinary people finally catching up to those with magical abilities and the fall out because of it.

 

  I'd also like to make mention of a book series called the "Powder Mage Trilogy". This is a universe that has mages in their traditional form (chucking fireballs or chunks of ice at opponents) but also mages that are able to manipulate black/gun powder. The technological level is based around those of the late 18th and 19th century. The books are well told with interesting characters both able to manipulate traditional magical things and mundanes. I would also argue that this is a series that seamlessly ties technology and magic in a world where neither is stronger or weaker than the other. This again furthers the idea that myself and several other posters here, that magic, science, gun powder technology and other such elements are not mutually exclusive, nor do they diminish one another.

 

Solas is by no means a werewolf in the Dragon Age lore. In the Elven Pantheon he is represented by a wolf (and not a werewolf, the two are not synonymous) who tricked the Creators (also typically represented by various animals, like a dragon in the case of Mythal) and the Forgotten Ones into their respective domains. So from the evidence of Flemeth/Mythal over the course of 3 games, we can conclude that the Evanuris could shape shift into their chosen animal representative. This does not mean that Solas is a werewolf, merely an incredibly powerful mage and shape shifter. Also, by your logic, Morrigan and any shape shifting Warden who can shape shift into a wolf would also be a werewolf, which is wrong.

 

Werewolves in Dragon Age are typified by a humanoid stature and wolf features. However, where they differ from other mythologies, they don't seem to be able to transform back into a human form unless an external force interferes. The only common aspect is that lycanthropy can be passed on if one is bitten by a werewolf. I had actually forgotten that werewolves actually exist in the Dragon Age world, but even so, there is no evidence that shape shifters are actual werewolves.

 

I'm now going to move onto the war between Tevinter + rest of Thedas vs the Qunari. Although the Qunari had the resources, technology and shock value to subdue a vast majority of Thedas, in the end they didn't. The reason why? Mages. From the lore, it seems that the Qunari did not even consider using Saarebas until near the end of the war because of the effectiveness of Thedas' mages. Even then, codex entries detail that Qunari mages were still inferior because of their relative lack of magical skill and lack of experience with casting many different varieties of magic. They principally relied upon their technology (primitive gun powder cannons and 'chemical' weapons) and their religious ideology as a means of prosecuting their war. Despite all their efforts, Tevinter and the rest of Thedas forced the Qunari off the mainland and essentially defeated them. Magic might defeated technological might, so the evidence so far still sees magic being superior to slightly more advanced technology. Also, Qunari having access to primitive cannons has been in the world since DA:O, so it isn't something that has been 'magically conjured' during DA2 or DA:I.

 

Magic also hasn't necessarily prevented medical discoveries either. While the Qunari are no doubt more advanced in this regard when compared to Thedosians, but healing magic hasn't stopped Thedas from having some sort of traditional medicine. If healing magic was the be all end all, then there would be no need for health potions or poultices that are made from the like of elf-root and other herbs. Yet despite healing magic existing, overwhelmingly, the way most people recover from injuries and other ailments is from people mixing together various herbs and other substances to make medicine. I'm making a bit of an assumption here, but I also assume that healing magic is actually quite rare? If someone can bring up a codex or something, that'd be great.

 

While I can't remember which developers said it (likely to be Gaider (when he was still the lead writer) that Dragon Age is firmly remain a medieval fantasy setting. No need to fancifully worry that Dragon Age will suddenly become Mass Effect or any other sci-fi rpg out there. Even if the series progresses to the next age, its likely that only primitive hand held fire arms will have been invented. And, as others have pointed out, they were incredibly unwieldy and less effective than older means of warfare. Early gunpowder weapons were prone to causing more harm to the wielder than an opponent, typically exploding in the wielder's hands. Basic gunpowder weapons also have terrible issues with accuracy, short range and load time, so much so that if they ever made it into the game, they'd be no fun at all. We are talking here with 1 minute + in terms of loading time with primitive gunpowder weapons. Also, as another poster has quite pointedly replied, the only reason why swords rapidly disappeared was because of the use of muskets and sticking bayonets on as a makeshift pike. Even then, cavalry did not stop using swords and by and large in the 18th and early 19th centuries were more than likely to beat an infantry formation. In fact, the sword still saw use in WW1 with the British and Commonwealth forces re-adopting them to fight the Ottoman Empire in Palestine. Arguably an age were true 'guns' were superior to swords and even bayonets. While slightly a tangent it is worth noting the historical decline of the use in the sword.

 

Bringing ideas from different series, media or history can be a good way to back one's argument. However, being a historian, I can see that you based your arguments over subjective ideas over what formulates 'fantasy' and 'progression towards science fiction'. You have used the historical development of the sword and gun powder weapons (there is a distinct difference that others have mentioned) and the use of, and decline of swords in use, to back up your argument. You have grossly simplified the history behind the implements of war and in doing so have rendered your argument weaker and un-compelling. Even bringing in additional relevant fictional titles has revealed that even in those fictional universe, the author(s) have managed to balance out technological advancement and the use of magic. The evidence in this regard has been amply displayed by myself and others, what you bring to the table does not. Within the Dragon Age universe itself, it has been established from the first game that the Qunari posses primitive cannons, but nothing on other primitive gun powder weapons. The intention of the developers has never been to turn Dragon Age into a clone of Mass Effect or any other science fiction rpg/shooter, to argue as such is a fallacy and should be disregarded as an argument.

 

It is a shame that being a forum doesn't make it friendly to referencing properly. While I can't point people to the exact second of my evidence for Avatar or Korra. But if anyone is interested in learning about the use of the sword in the British and Australian Armies (at least) during WW1 in Palestine, just send me a private message. I also apologise for the spelling and grammar, as I haven't bothered to re-read over it since posting. This is my wall of text....that has probably been made irrelevant by now, but I enjoyed making it.

 

[Tamyn]

I hate gunpowder being in the game world, period.

[straykat]

I hate gunpowder being in the game world, period.

 

Didn't you get the memo? The qunari have to be superior in every way. Gunpowder? Covered. Transgendered rights? Ditto. Mountains of muscle, apparently ideal social classes, justice for everyone, best mages, perfect concepts and "words" to describe everything. They even make better glass than the Orlesians (telescopes). And after all that, most people still don't like them. Rightfully so.

 

They're like that SNL skit, Penelope, "The one upper". https://screen.yahoo...-000000068.html

[Andraste_Reborn]

Why are you all feeding this troll for 4 pages? He'll just repeat his nonsense over and over no matter what you say and what arguments you bring. If you think you're going to have a productive discussion with him, you're up for a rude awakening.

 

We're three years or so out from Dragon Age 4. What do we have to do around here other than chew on trolls? (And/or people who are not trolls but are catastrophising based on a bunch of stuff they made up.)

 

Anyway, the discussion about the history of firearms is interesting.

[Shechinah]

Technology in Thedas already can rival magic, sword and axes can hack Mages skull, now there is another advance technology that is gun powder.

 

Soon Mages themselves will abandon magic and use this advance technology against their opposition.

 

Why would they? Magic is a relatively inexpensive resource to a mage; You needn't pay for the various ingredients required to create gunpowder nor for the gunpowder itself. You are capable of a great more variety because of spells including healing, mindcontrol and casting elemental spells that can effectively kill your opponent and destroy their weaponry. Have a decent frost spell at hand and you can render your opponent a frozen figurine in less than the time it takes for your opponent to prepare their gun and take aim. Even if they manage to aim a decent shot at you, you can summon a barrier to absorb the shot and return damage before they can reload.

 

Weaponry such as axes, swords and guns can melt, burn or prematurely explode if a fireball is cast it's way and that's not even accounting for what said fireball would to the wielder of the weapon.

 

Melee weaponry would provide no advantage against a mage who would know how to keep the wielders at a distance or dispose of them before they even reach close quarters. A bloodmage can make a horrific show by having the wielder turn their own weaponry, close-ranged or ranged, on themselves.

 

Let's say, however, that there is a threat in form of gunnery weaponry that can threaten a mage in a way that renders all existing spellwork including bloodmagic useless against the threat in question. Note that this would not be even modern guns and would likely require quite a fantastical component to do so. What would happen is that a mage would assess and study the threat in question to learn how to adapt to it. That way, you can find a way to counter the threat even through indirectly means. If the threat renders you incapable of dealing with the threat or it's wielder head-on then you can, say, strike at the ground to create an earthquake that could swallow up the threat or create a enviroment that would make it difficult or impossible for the threat to functioning or for it's wielder to survive and follow you like a snowstorm. 

 

A person without magic would require a potion to recover from their wounds whereas a mage could learn to heal their wounds themselves. A person without magic would need to aquire the ingredients required to make gunpowder or aquire a finished product both of which would cost money whereas a mage would not necessarily require components for the spellwork they have in mind and wouldnot need to have a financial cost attached to their spellwork. A person without magic would also need to make sure they are properly keeping their gunpowder to avoid accidents and the likes and if they are at a gun stage, would need to maintain and keep their piece.

 

Note: I did not count teleportion amongst the spells at the disposal of a mage because I am not certain whether or not the in-game seeming usage of teleportion is a case of gameplay and story segregation.

[TobiTobsen]

This thread is interesting.

I wasn't aware that stomping your foot, pouting and passive aggressively insisting that your opinion is the only one that matters was a legitimate base for discussion after kindergarden.

 

Ahh... the wonders of the internet.

[Wulfram]

If there's a technology in Thedas that could really change things in the next few decades, its Bianca. But Varric isn't sharing her technology, even if I dislike his reasoning on that.

[Ashagar]

This thread is interesting.

I wasn't aware that stomping your foot, pouting and passive aggressively insisting that your opinion is the only one that matters was a legitimate base for discussion after kindergarden.

 

Ahh... the wonders of the internet.

 

Well it is certainly impressive from a certain point of view. I am certainly impressed that someone could ignore all evidence to argue how if guns existed magic, armor and various weapons would somehow magically become useless because of science while ignoring all the evidence that shows how flawed such a argument is.

[Qis]

It is better for Mages to learn archery and become Tempest Archer, it is far easier than years of study in magic to get less impressive effect. Even the most primitive techmology can achieve such effect in Tempest Archery, just imagine the most primitive gun would do in Thedas

 

Who need magic anymore? Even primitive technology can surpass magic

[leaguer of one]

Yeah. Yet we get accident free lyrium based explosions and dwarven machinegunners in Descent who don't blow themselves up. A few of those guns could be brought back and reverse engineered, XCOM style.
 
Heck, even Anders somehow graduated in Chemistry of Thedas and made a bomb of epic proportions (which I'm sure is explained away as "somehow magicky" since I doubt the Qunari handed him the gaatlok formula or the dwarves carted a load of lyrium into the Chantry... so this was most likely done by the power of the plot hole).

All that tech is from dwarves info for old and the titan. That does not mean the normal dwarves will figure it out anytime soon. and Anders bomb use magical materials,which still makeds it alchemy. Some of theproduct of the bomb were consentrated methane and dragon droppings( which make it ironic being gaatlok is make from me trials milked from dragons.)

[Ashagar]

It is better for Mages learn archery and become Tempest Archer, it is far easier than years of study in magic to get less impressive effect. Even the most primitive techmology can achieve such effect in Tempest Archery, just imagine the most primitive gun would do in Thedas

 

Who need magic anymore? Even primitive technology can surpass magic

 

You been repeatedly given sound reasons why guns and other technologies wouldn't simply surpass magic or even current thadasian simply by existing which you've pointedly ignored. 

[Qis]

In Thedas, these guys are 100 times more awesome than any Mages with their technology....

 

[TobiTobsen]

It is better for Mages to learn archery and become Tempest Archer, it is far easier than years of study in magic to get less impressive effect. Even the most primitive techmology can achieve such effect in Tempest Archery, just imagine the most primitive gun would do in Thedas

 

Who need magic anymore? Even primitive technology can surpass magic

 

A lot of smoke and triggering a 45 second reload sequence?

[leaguer of one]

It is better for Mages learn archery and become Tempest Archer, it is far easier than years of study in magic to get less impressive effect. Even the most primitive techmology can achieve such effect in Tempest Archery, just imagine the most primitive gun would do in Thedas
 
Who need magic anymore? Even primitive technology can surpass magic

1. Mages have been combining magic and tech for years. They are call battle mages and knight enchanters.
2. Magic also has the advantage of attacking crowds of people at one. Archers don't.
3.not all mage's are skilled enough to use high level magic.
4.Tech does not make magic pointless.