410 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashagar]

Its strange when you think about it because if magic naturally exists in a setting like it does in dragon age and numerous other settings, its a natural part of the world which means there are natural laws that deal with magic that can be studied and examined.

[Ariella]

Its strange when you think about it because if magic naturally exists in a setting like it does in dragon age and numerous other settings, its a natural part of the world which means there are natural laws that deal with magic that can be studied and examined.

Mineave says something in Haven about performing rituals to unlock the secrets of the Veil while she was studying. And it sounds like research is huge in Tevinter.

The only things that I can see hindering research is the south are political in nature.

Eamon's former advisor did a great deal of experimentation, mostly on Shale, as well.

[Nepitandi]

I would like to point out that the Dwarfs in Origins had explosives... Remember no magic, no connection to the fade. It is mentioned several times in Orzammar if you talk to everyone you can. How else were they going to mine lyrium and build the deep roads? Also it is a quest with the crazy dwarf in Awakening for the better explosive? The one you use to seal the dark spawn tunnel in the keep... The qunari powder is even mentioned in the "I've almost copied the black powder" statement that he made. But the point is that it existed in origins and awakening it wasn't retconned in.

[Qis]

Saying magic can get along with science is like sayting religion can get along with science, miracles can get along with science, salvation from God can get along with science...

 

Religion is stagnant, the same goes to magic. When you rely on higher power in everything, you will reject progression. Faith and magic don't need reasoning while science is reasoning.

 

It is a simple rule, when the priest say "salvation come through God" you only need to believe in God and His miracles will solve everything, if you believe science can solve your problem, then you are a heretic and will be burned on the stake. This apply to magic as well, the difference between a priest and a mage is where they put their faith in. Priest put their faith in God and miracles, Mages put their faith in Demons and magic. Both don't put their faith in science and so there will be no progression.

 

Science destroy religion as well magic

[lynroy]

 

Spoken like someone that doesn't know religion. Science does not destroy religion.

[Heimdall]

Saying magic can get along with science is like sayting religion can get along with science, miracles can get along with science, salvation from God can get along with science...
 
Religion is stagnant, the same goes to magic. Whe you rely on higher power in everything, you will reject progression. Faith and magic don't need reasoning while science is reasoning.
 
It is a simple rule, when the priest say "salvation come through God" you only need to believe in God and His miracles will solve everything, if you believe science can solve your problem, then you are a heretic and ill be burned on the stake. This apply to magic as well, the difference between a priest and a mage is where they put their faith in. Priest put their faith in God and miracles, Mages put their faith in Demons and magic. Both don't put their faith in science and so there will be no progression.
 
Science destroy religion as well magic

If my study of history has taught me anything, its that religions and interpretations of faith are evolving all the time. Christians today don't interpret their faith the same way Christians a thousand years ago did. Nor do science and religion need to be in competition, despite what some might think. Many of the historical controversies about science and religion most point to actually had religious figures on both sides. Believing in a higher power doesn't mean you can't think the world works on rules that can be observed and understood through empirical observation.

Anyone treating science like a religion and putting faith in it is wrongheaded. It's a methodology, nothing more. Science isn't an alternative to religion, its just a way of examining evidence.

[MyKingdomCold]

OK, if science and religion can't get along as you say, then every religious person in the world wouldn't go to a hospital

[Qis]

If you can communicate through crystal ball, you will not bother to create internet. Everything the technology give us remove the need for magic and miracles. Whe you use magic, you will not use technology. The same with miracles from God, if God intervine everything, who need science? You just need a Holy Spirit come to you and solve all your problems

 

Jesus cures the lepers, cures the blind, if Jesus exist today, who will go to the hospital? You better meet Jesus, his services are free.

[MyKingdomCold]

So you're saying you've never been to a hospital or taken medicine of any kind?

[Qis]

No, i am saying if i put my faith in God and God will cure me, i will not go to the hospital and not taking any medicine. The same if i have healing magic. I won't bother to learn science for that matter.

 

I go to the hospital because there is no miracle and no magic.

[Aren]

Not necessarily, as the ancient elves show us magic is capable of much more than what modern mages know.  Alexius was able to develop new forms of magic that even the elves apparently never used.  Scientific insights into the world could also could spark people to think of new ways to use magic.  Scientific insights into magic itself could do the same.

 

Though even so, there's no reason mages couldn't use technology too in addition to their abilities.  Most mages in Shadowrun use guns in addition to their spells, even though spells are still what makes them primarily useful.  I don't know why this has to be a versus.

Fen'harel proved that by creating the veil, mages were weakened as a collective.

If x,y,z ancient elf mages or Evanuris were capable to perform admirable spells in comparison to modern mages,it was not because they were better but because their world was different.

Magic of Dragon age it is something (as usual in these setting) that do not belong to the mage but to the world.

Not to mention that the very core foundation concept of magic in DA is the dream.

Spirits,mortals elves all of them used to shape the forces of the fade in order to create what they wanted,without any understanding and any rules behind that the so called Hedge magic,http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Hedge_mage

very different to how progression of guns or bullets works

Alexius created a spell(he didn't developed magic,magic cannot be developed more likely commanded) that is useless without the peculiar condition of a breach(and i doubt that an Evanuris wasn't capable to do that),that is way magic is stagnant,no matter how remarkable the process behind the spell is,without the resource you will go anywhere,being it Lyrium,the forces of the fade,blood ecc...

since by locking it with a veil,you confine magic where mages cannot use it anymore,and the veil is not even at it's top now..

It is not a versus in fact as it is my opinion that it is a feeble attempt to conciliate technology and magic as they work with completely different criteria,one is dominated by the mathematical language the other by whatever rule or lore the writer came up ,rules that often contradict themselves.

(especially if the writer change).

There cannot be a "versus" since they operate in different realms,technology can improvewhile magic not, only the spells related to it.

 

[Heimdall]

If you can communicate through crystal ball, you will not bother to create internet. Everything the technology give us remove the need for magic and miracles. Whe you use magic, you will not use technology. The same with miracles from God, if God intervine everything, who need science? You just need a Holy Spirit come to you and solve all your problems
 
Jesus cures the lepers, cures the blind, if Jesus exist today, who will go to the hospital? You better meet Jesus, his services are free.

...Have you ever actually encountered a religion before? Because most modern religious people don't behave that way, and those that do are crazy fringe people. There will always be crazy fringe people.

[Aren]

Its strange when you think about it because if magic naturally exists in a setting like it does in dragon age and numerous other settings, its a natural part of the world which means there are natural laws that deal with magic that can be studied and examined.

The core of Magic  is dream and wish,what rule or "law" you want to find in wishes?

What a mage wish in the fade it is created,kinds like God,there is nothing to study here.

What kind of rules are behind Anders or Wynne when they move their fingers and make a paralytic, walk again like Jesus ?

Or Morrigan who create a lighting bolt from nowhere?

Magic is wish and dreams that is way was fascinating for many in the past,but it is in no way logical.

[Heimdall]

No, i am saying if i put my faith in God and God will cure me, i will not go to the hospital and not taking any medicine. The same if i have healing magic. I won't bother to learn science for that matter.
 
I go to the hospital because there is no miracle and no magic.

So your observation is that... people are practical? If I knew I could cure something with healing magic instead of walking to the hospital and hoping my insurance will cover the treatment, I would heal it with healing magic. If everything could be solved with healing magic and everyone had access to healing magic, then and only then would people not bother to develop medicine... What does this prove?

[Ariella]

Qis does know that the RCC has a very good medical establishment.

[Qis]

So your observation is that... people are practical? If I knew I could cure something with healing magic instead of walking to the hospital and hoping my insurance will cover the treatment, I would heal it with healing magic. If everything could be solved with healing magic and everyone had access to healing magic, then and only then would people not bother to develop medicine... What does this prove?

 

People are practical, this is our nature, that is why science progress. We always seek a way for the betterment of our lives. Science provide that and science makes our life easier. If there is magic or miracle that can subtitute science, no one will bother to progress in science, people will choose magic or miracle. The world will be stagnant. Mages and priests will not progress either because there is no need for progression.

 

Is heaven everchanging or stagnant for eternity? You get everything you need in heaven, there is no need for progression. If you put heaven on earth, the world will be stagnant.

[Heimdall]

Fen'harel proved that by creating the veil, mages were weakened as a collective.
If x,y,z ancient elf mages or Evanuris were capable to perform admirable spells in comparison to modern mages,it was not because they were better but because their world was different.
Magic of Dragon age it is something (as usual in these setting) that do not belong to the mage but to the world.

Not to mention that the very core foundation concept of magic in DA is the dream.
Spirits,mortals elves all of them used to shape the forces of the fade in order to create what they wanted,without any understanding and any rules behind that the so called Hedge magic,http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Hedge_mage
very different to how progression of guns or bullets works

Alexius created a spell(he didn't developed magic,magic cannot be developed more likely commanded) that is useless without the peculiar condition of a breach(and i doubt that an Evanuris wasn't capable to do that),that is way magic is stagnant,no matter how remarkable the process behind the spell is,without the resource you will go anywhere,being it Lyrium,the forces of the fade,blood ecc...

since by locking it with a veil,you confine magic where mages cannot use it anymore,and the veil is not even at it's top now..
It is not a versus in fact as it is my opinion that it is a feeble attempt to conciliate technology and magic as they work with completely different criteria,one is dominated by the mathematical language the other by whatever rule or lore the writer came up ,rules that often contradict themselves.
(especially if the writer change).
There cannot be a "versus" since they operate in different realms,technology can improvewhile magic not, only the spells related to it.

So what? That doesn't mean that people can't work out new ways to manipulate magic, create new spells that affect the world in unique ways.

The core concept of magic is drawing the energy of the Fade into the real world and using it to manipulate it.  All that it takes is for someone to think of a new approach for the study and use of magic to take a new direction and invent new, possibly better ways to utilize it.

 

If you're going to insist on splitting hairs between magic and spells, I must insist that you do the same between science and technology.  The progression from musket balls to bullets isn't science.  Science is a methodology, technological advancement is its product.  Magic is energy, a spell is a way to manipulate it.  That Alexius' spell required the breach is not the point.  That was only a power requirement, the point is that he created something entirely new, that advancement and new ways to manipulate magic are possible.  Other advancements needn't require such overwhelming power.

 

But magic, this manipulation of energy, does run on rules in the setting.  As long as it runs on rules it can be studied, understood, predicted and manipulated.  That's what science is all about.  And just like any scientific understanding of the universe, those rules can be disproven and reevaluated.

[Qis]

Heal and heal all spell, is there a need to advance further? Heal and heal all magic will never progress, because they always do the same, heal yourself and heal all party members.

 

Fireball also did the same, in all games, shoot a ball of fire that will explode on target, it will not get any better, in fact it getting worse because of balancing. All fireball magic are the same in gaming magical world. The difference is just the aptitude and graphic.

 

Same goes to lightning bolt, lightning chain, lightning whatever, it is all the same.

 

But cannons and guns evolved, because technology evolved, science progress. From matchlock to machinegun and sub-machincegun, and Mass Effect guns. from cannon ball to nuke and photon torpedoes

 

You see Skyrim? Magic become worse in Skyrim, because there is nothing more to add, and they remove many spells because those spells are USELESS. By that alone prove that magic is stagnant.

[Heimdall]

People are practical, this is our nature, that is why science progress. We always seek a way for the betterment of our lives. Sciece provide that and science makes our life easier. If there is magic or miracles that can subtitute science, no one will bother to progress in science, people will choose magic or miracle. The world will be stagnant. Mages and priests will not progress either because there is no need for progression.

 

Is heaven everchanging or stagnant for eternity? You get everything you need in heaven, there is no need for progression. If you put heaven on earth, the world will be stagnant.

If we had heaven on earth, we would all be perfectly happy, and have all our material and psychological needs met with maximum efficiency.  We would be beyond any conceivable need for improvement... But nobody thinks we have heaven on earth, so what's your point?

 

You're right, people wouldn't progress technological advancement if there was no need to... so what?  It wouldn't make my life easier because I already have something that does the exact same thing unless it does it much better, which in this discussion it doesn't.  Stop treating science like its a religious faith.  You're supposed to employ it as a tool, not a mystical grail that will lead everyone to salvation if they bow down to it and reject all other gods.

 

Mages can progress, they can study magic, develop new spells and ways to manipulate mystical forces.  If its a natural force that follows rules and can be predicted, science can study it.  Religion isn't about advancement to begin with, its about morality and community in most religious traditions.  It doesn't need to supplant science and vice versa.

[Almostfaceman]

This is just silly. You can't actually think that this is going to happen, so why are you making a nonsense argument?

 

Everything they're saying in this thread is pretty much nonsense, probably just because they're bored. 

[Heimdall]

Heal and heal all spell, is there a need to advance further? Heal and heal all magic will never progress, because they always do the same, heal yourself and heall all party members.

 

Fireball also did the same, in all games, shoot a ball of fire that will explode on target, it will not get any better, in fact it getting worse because of balancing. All fireball magic are the same in gaming magical world. The difference is just the aptitude and graphic.

 

Same goes to lightning bolt, lightning chain, lightning whatever, it is all the same.

 

But cannons and guns evolved, because technology evolved, science progress. From matchlock to machinegun and sub-machincegun, and Mass Effect guns. from cannon ball to nuke and photon torpedoes

 

You see Skyrim? Magic become worse in Skyrim, because there is nothing more to add, and they remove many spells because those spells are USELESS. By that alone prove that magic is stagnant.

You do realize that the only thing those examples prove is that video game devs can be unimaginative, right?

[Qis]

You do realize that the only thing those examples prove is that video game devs can be unimaginative, right?

 

Like i said earlier, magic is imagination, science is reason...that's why they don't mix, if they did, it will be ridiculous like Tempest Archer

[Heimdall]

Like i said earlier, magic is imagination, science is reason...that's why they don't mix, if they did, it will be ridiculous like Tempest Archer

A couple dozen JRPG titles that all employ technology fueled by magic would like to have word with you.

 

In some settings, magic can be random and have no limitations.  In others, magic runs on distinct rules and can be evaluated as a science.  DA falls into the latter category.

 

Besides, I don't recall technology advancing much between any of the installments of the games you mentioned, so is science not just as stagnant in those worlds?

[Qis]

Is this magic or science or technology? I can't describe this...if primitive technology that is bow and arrows look like this, no reason for primitive guns is lower than this, and no reason for magic, and no reason to progress in science

 

[Heimdall]

Is this magic or science or technology? I can't describe this...if primitive technology that is bow and arrows look like this, no reason for primitive guns is lower than this, and no reason for magic, and no reason to progress in science

I call it game mechanics, but more directly... It's both, Qis.  Somebody figured out new ways to employ magic in elixirs to to give temporary magical effects to people.  They did this through experimentation and research.  That is the scientific method.  That is advancement.

 

Though unless this is easily produced on a mass scale (I have no idea how they are made, but they definitely require magic or lyrium and I'm guessing the ingredients aren't overwhelmingly common), then it wouldn't stop the development of technology in the same area.