287 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone223]

The other species were very specialized like fantasy races. The Mage race, the barbarian race, the scientists rave, warrior race, rogue race etc. humans were portrayed as a jack of all trades race in comparison. So comparatively genetically diverse.
 

The specialization of certain species has absolutely nothing to do with their genetic diversity it just means their doctrine differs from other species.

 

But outside reaper obsession which was more of a Shepard fixation I just don't see it. I think people want too see that narrative as an avenue to complain and then start seeing evidence everywhere whether it's there or not.

The reaper's were building a human reaper in ME2 and were more concentrated on earth during ME3 those two factors alone scream "humans are the best".  

[AresKeith]

I don't really see how "human make a better reaper" makes "humans are special" a bad thing story-wise

[In Exile]

 

 

Actually ME2/ME3 were by far the worst offenders when it came to "humans are the best". The reaper's were focused primarily of humanity which they saw as the biggest threat. Then there was the nonsense with regrades to "human have lots of genetic diversity" which is in reality false since at one point humanity was reduced to a few thousand breeding pairs.

 

 

No. That one aggravates me, because it's a faux intellectual point, for two reasons. One, Mass Effect is so comically ignorant of science that picking up on this point instead of all the other egregious mistakes is silly. Two, it's entirely possible for humanity to be the most genetically diverse sapient species while being the least genetically diverse species on Earth. All that it requires is that every single species on Earth is more diverse than any other species off it. It's a very simple formal logic point. 

 

Beyond that, ME3 shows humanity as the universe's dishrag. The entire human war effort manages to exist for about as long as it takes Shepard to get dressed in the morning. 

 

Nothing in the series compares to ME1's felicitating, to quote DA2, of the greatness that is humanity. We're already the cleverest most adaptive species ever that modernized all of the science. We're as nearly as good as all of the other species at the things they're best at... it's ridiculous. 

[Drone223]

 

No. That one aggravates me, because it's a faux intellectual point, for two reasons. One, Mass Effect is so comically ignorant of science that picking up on this point instead of all the other egregious mistakes is silly. Two, it's entirely possible for humanity to be the most genetically diverse sapient species while being the least genetically diverse species on Earth. All that it requires is that every single species on Earth is more diverse than any other species off it. It's a very simple formal logic point. 

 

ME doesn't need to be 100% scientifically accurate (no scif-fi series is) but even in fiction there has to be believablility a few thousands years in terms of evolution is extremely small when compared to millions of years. It takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years for any significant change to occur. If Bioware was going with the "Human's ares special" route they should've at least got one or two things right. 

 

Beyond that, ME3 shows humanity as the universe's dishrag. The entire human war effort manages to exist for about as long as it takes Shepard to get dressed in the morning. 

 

 

They weren't humanity was a major focus and driving force in ME3.

 

Nothing in the series compares to ME1's felicitating, to quote DA2, of the greatness that is humanity. We're already the cleverest most adaptive species ever that modernized all of the science. We're as nearly as good as all of the other species at the things they're best at... it's ridiculous. 

 

ME1 has its share of "humans are special" moments but those moments are few and far between when compared to the ones found in ME2/3.

 

- A group of human's are the only ones doing something against the reaper's.

- The collector's/reaper's specifically targeting human colonies.

- Human's being the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy.

- The collector's constructing a human reaper.

- The reaper's using earth as their base of operations during the war.

- Humans being the ones who rally the galaxy against the reaper's.

 

I can go on.

[AlanC9]

ME doesn't need to be 100% scientifically accurate (no scif-fi series is) but even in fiction there has to be some realism a few thousands years in terms of evolution is extremely small when compared to millions of years. It takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years for any significant change to occur. If Bioware was going with the "Human's ares special" route they should've at least got one or two things right. 

This doesn't actually respond to In Exile's point.

[Lumix19]

ME doesn't need to be 100% scientifically accurate (no scif-fi series is) but even in fiction there has to be believablility a few thousands years in terms of evolution is extremely small when compared to millions of years. It takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years for any significant change to occur. If Bioware was going with the "Human's ares special" route they should've at least got one or two things right.

They weren't humanity was a major focus and driving force in ME3.

ME1 has its share of "humans are special" moments but those moments are few and far between when compared to the ones found in ME2/3.

- A group of human's are the only ones doing something against the reaper's.
- The collector's/reaper's specifically targeting human colonies.
- Human's being the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy.
- The collector's constructing a human reaper.
- The reaper's using earth as their base of operations during the war.
- Humans being the ones who rally the galaxy against the reaper's.

I can go on.

So true. The humans getting on the Council is something that other species actually embrace in ME1 because it's supposed to be the gateway for other species to get on the Council as well. You can hear people talking about how if the humans do get on the Council then the Elcor or the Volus will be next (really they deserve it after waiting so long).
Funnily enough that Elcor or Volus Council position never materializes because humans were suddenly so important that they deserve it and screw the other races.

[Il Divo]

Yeah, but that still originates as an ME1 problem no matter how we look at it, with humans even being offered up a Council seat or going straight hostile take over via Renegade (which thankfully was retconned). It gets even worse when we consider that in a few decades we managed to achieve what other species couldn't do in centuries of expansion. If the Elcor or Volus were going to get their council seats, it would have happened already. The problem is that they were always more joke races than anything else, simply in terms of narrative role. Fun to interact with, but always of lesser importance. 

[ImperatorMortis]

No surprise here. 

 

Sucks. I actually don't mind so much that we can only play as human, but to make it human-centric again is pretty lame. 

 

If the female voice actress is as good as Hale then I can deal I suppose. 

[In Exile]

 

 

ME doesn't need to be 100% scientifically accurate (no scif-fi series is) but even in fiction there has to be believablility a few thousands years in terms of evolution is extremely small when compared to millions of years. It takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years for any significant change to occur. If Bioware was going with the "Human's ares special" route they should've at least got one or two things right. 

 

No. You're wrong. The timescale of evolution doesn't matter. Again, it could just be a feature of this galaxy that every single species that is not from Planet Earth is less genetically diverse than any species on Earth. In this case, humans could simultaneously be (1) the least diverse species on Earth and (2) the most diverse sapient species in the galaxy, without equal. 

 

As I said, the issue with this complaint is ignorance. Not of genetics (that's something Bioware's just comically ignorant of, so focusing on that part is stupid, because, again, we have things like Quarian immunology), but of basic logic. And the ignorance is on the part of the fans. 

 

Humans are special, but they're less special than in ME1. Because the Alien races in ME2 and ME3 are actually good at more things that getting in humanity's way and being bullet sponges for Shepard. They also actually stand up to humans, instead of angrily waive their arms while humanity takes their lunch. 

 

 

ME1 has its share of "humans are special" moments but those moments are few and far between when compared to the ones found in ME2/3.

 

- A group of human's are the only ones doing something against the reaper's.

- The collector's/reaper's specifically targeting human colonies.

- Human's being the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy.

- The collector's constructing a human reaper.

- The reaper's using earth as their base of operations during the war.

- Humans being the ones who rally the galaxy against the reaper's.

 

I can go on.

 

The humans in ME1:

 

1. Have the first scientific breakthrough in millenia. Let me repeat that again: the Citadel civilization in ME1 had stagnated for about as long as Christianity has existed. Not only is that in and of itself ridiculous, but the idea that humans showing up on the scene could have so many breakthroughs in decades goes beyond any pail of "humans are special". 

 

2. Humans dominated a civilization that existed, again, for millenia in about as much time as most of us had been alive. This despite the fact that humanity was, basically, the ass end of civilization prior to the First Contact War. This includes:

 

a. Becoming a political and economic powerhouse - building alliances in decades that other races hadn't in centuries. 

b. Having one of the strongest - if not the strongest - military force besides the 3 council races.c

c. Had the Council straight up choose them over the Batarians. 

d. Defeat, essentially, a geth fleet that slaughtered the Citadel fleets. 

 

As for your points

 

- A group of human's are the only ones doing something against the reaper's. Yeah, just like in ME1. Anderson, Udina and Shepard. 

- The collector's/reaper's specifically targeting human colonies. Just like in ME1. The Geth only attack humans. This is why the Council doesn't do anything. 

- Human's being the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy. Humans being the most adaptive and creative species in the galaxy, being responsible for basically every modern invention like, no kidding, medigel, not to mention the Normandy, the very concept of aircraft carries, and so on. 

- The collector's constructing a human reaper. Saren only attacking humans and human colonies. 

- The reaper's using earth as their base of operations during the war. Geth only attack and using human space in the Traverse as a staging ground, to the extent they advance at all. 

- Humans being the ones who rally the galaxy against the reaper's. This one is literally true. Again, Shepard, Anderson, Udina. 

[SporkFu]

The only question is, can an alien drive the MAKO better than a human? I don't think the Empire Alliance had wookiees aliens in mind when they designed this thing.

[GnusmasTHX]

You guys are reading too much into this humans are superior thing.

 

Read the codex, the SA economy is "only approaching that of the elcor" at the onset of ME1. Which puts it dead last excluding drell and yahg. And for a fictional universe with a main plot point that all species follow the same technological growth to reach the same technological ceiling, it makes sense that humanity would reach it quickly when they were given most of it from other aliens.

 

 

Militarily, they're superior to some races, but take a look at these races:

Krogan and quarians survivors of a war and genocide.

Volus, are literally so fat they gave up on war altogether.

Eclor, are so slow they rely on VI's to fight.

Drell, yahg, barely even spacefaring

 

When you take that into consideration, of ****** course the Council would choose humans over any of the aforementioned races, even the batarians. 

The Council selection process isn't unlike NATO. Similar values, competent military to protect said values. 

 

The story itself was too focused on humans to the point of silliness, but as far as the world building was concerned we were basically the Israel of the galaxy. 

 

Even more, and probably the best evidence against human superiority in ME: all the best gear is alien.

[Drone223]

No. You're wrong. The timescale of evolution doesn't matter. Again, it could just be a feature of this galaxy that every single species that is not from Planet Earth is less genetically diverse than any species on Earth. In this case, humans could simultaneously be (1) the least diverse species on Earth and (2) the most diverse sapient species in the galaxy, without equal. 

 

 

 

That makes no sense what-so-ever, how can we the most genetically diverse sapient species in the galaxy if we aren't the most genetically diverse species on Earth? We also know nothing about the genetic diversity of the other sapient species so the stament that human's are genetically diverse is just BS plane and simple.. 

 

 

As I said, the issue with this complaint is ignorance. Not of genetics (that's something Bioware's just comically ignorant of, so focusing on that part is stupid, because, again, we have things like Quarian immunology), but of basic logic. And the ignorance is on the part of the fans. 

 

The quarians' while not perfect are far from being the worst offenders. 

 

Humans are special, but they're less special than in ME1. Because the Alien races in ME2 and ME3 are actually good at more things that getting in humanity's way and being bullet sponges for Shepard. They also actually stand up to humans, instead of angrily waive their arms while humanity takes their lunch. 

ME1 depicted human's as new comer's and the reaper's weren't solely focused on them. In ME2/3 it was human's who were acting to stop the reaper's/collector's and reaper's shifted their focus on humanity.

[Drone223]

 

The humans in ME1:

 

1. Have the first scientific breakthrough in millenia. Let me repeat that again: the Citadel civilization in ME1 had stagnated for about as long as Christianity has existed. Not only is that in and of itself ridiculous, but the idea that humans showing up on the scene could have so many breakthroughs in decades goes beyond any pail of "humans are special". 

 

Humanity wasn't far from being the best, the asari were the best biotics in the galaxy, the salarians had their famous STG and the turians had the largest and most powerful military in the galaxy. 

 

2. Humans dominated a civilization that existed, again, for millenia in about as much time as most of us had been alive. This despite the fact that humanity was, basically, the ass end of civilization prior to the First Contact War. This includes:

 

a. Becoming a political and economic powerhouse - building alliances in decades that other races hadn't in centuries. 

 

 

The asari, turians and Salarians individually have bigger economies humanity still has a ways to go before their economy becomes as big as theirs.

 

 

b. Having one of the strongest - if not the strongest - military force besides the 3 council races.

 

They don't its the turians who have the largest and most strongest fleet out of all the council races. The only fleets that comes close to rivaling the turians are the geth (for obvious reasons) and possibly the Quarian's (largest fleet in the galaxy).

 

 

c. Had the Council straight up choose them over the Batarians. 

 

The Batarians had annexed an asari colony and their slave culture which the council races looked down upon its quite obvious why they prefer humans over the Batarians.

 

d. Defeat, essentially, a geth fleet that slaughtered the Citadel fleets. 

 

Only if Shepard tells them to save the DA otherwise they don't engage the geth but focus their forces on Sovereign.

[Drone223]

- A group of human's are the only ones doing something against the reaper's. Yeah, just like in ME1. Anderson, Udina and Shepard. 

There's also a large human-supremacist organization called Cerberus.

 

- The collector's/reaper's specifically targeting human colonies. Just like in ME1. The Geth only attack humans. This is why the Council doesn't do anything. 

 

They had little evidence to prove that he was responsible for attacking human colonies once they were given proof they revoked his Specter status. 

 

- Human's being the most genetically diverse species in the galaxy. Humans being the most adaptive and creative species in the galaxy, being responsible for basically every modern invention like, no kidding, medigel, not to mention the Normandy, the very concept of aircraft carries, and so on. 

 

The Normandy was a joint human-turian effort and iirc medi-gel and carries were the only notable human creations.

 

- The collector's constructing a human reaper. Saren only attacking humans and human colonies. 

 

A lot of that has to do with what happened to his family in the FCW.

 

- The reaper's using earth as their base of operations during the war. Geth only attack and using human space in the Traverse as a staging ground, to the extent they advance at all. 

The traverse is a part of citadel space the council would've have responded as well.

 

- Humans being the ones who rally the galaxy against the reaper's. This one is literally true. Again, Shepard, Anderson, Udina. 

 

Shepard, Anderson and Hackett are pretty much the de facto leaders of the Alliance since most of the leadership died during the first stages of the reaper invasion. So essentially it becomes an Alliance lead effort.

[Applepie_Svk]

I think that human supperiority wasn´t in the technological advance or millitary might, but just in a fact of addaptation. We were simply able to quickly addapt to new problems and challanges and that´s what made us in a way as threat to the other species. We´ve managed to colonize, to join galactic society, to build some army, expand polliticaly, etc. Some species thought about us as too young to be in charge of anything, others were rather reserved, and there were ofc those who didn´t like just an idea of US being anywhere near a power as much as looking on us

 

And I don´t blame them, it´s one of the great treat of mankind as much as our great dissadvantage. People do try to push hard for their goals, while other species may already acknowlendge a fact that not everything is supposed to happen in a lifetime of one generation (well only Asari and Krogans have a luxury of too long lifespan ). 

[Il Divo]

Humanity wasn't far from being the best, the asari were the best biotics in the galaxy, the salarians had their famous STG and the turians had the largest and most powerful military in the galaxy. 

 

 

The asari, turians and Salarians individually have bigger economies humanity still has a ways to go before their economy becomes as big as theirs.

 

 

Yeah, but that doesn't make your argument here any less weak. There's no way to navigate around the fact that we do in decades what other civilizations couldn't do in hundreds/thousands of years.

 

Based on Mass Effect's time scale, give it another hundred years, and we probably would have been doing all those things better than them. The point still stands: if Bioware wanted humanity to be seen as newcomers, we shouldn't be dominating the Elcor/Volus/Hanaar/Batarians within that span of time. As everyone goes out of their way to remind us: it's only a matter of time before we're awarded Council status. 

[Il Divo]

That makes no sense what-so-ever, how can we the most genetically diverse sapient species in the galaxy if we aren't the most genetically diverse species on Earth? We also know nothing about the genetic diversity of the other sapient species so the stament that human's are genetically diverse is just BS plane and simple.. 

 

 

Except you just supported his statement. We don't know anything about the genetic diversity of other sapient species, hence why it's possible for us to be more genetically diverse relative to others. 

[Obsidian Gryphon]

In reference to subject title. Not a surprise. Meat bags are very popular, especially human meat bags.

[Drone223]

Except you just supported his statement. We don't know anything about the genetic diversity of other sapient species, hence why it's possible for us to be more genetically diverse relative to others. 

I didn't, you can't claim human's that humans are the most genetically diverse sapient species if have no proof to back it up. 

[Il Divo]

I didn't, you can't claim human's that humans are the most genetically diverse sapient species if have no proof to back it up. 

 

<---Mordin.

 

<---Reapers/Collectors. 

 

And there it is. 

[Drone223]

Yeah, but that doesn't make your argument here any less weak. There's no way to navigate around the fact that we do in decades what other civilizations couldn't do in hundreds/thousands of years.

 

Based on Mass Effect's time scale, give it another hundred years, and we probably would have been doing all those things better than them. The point still stands: if Bioware wanted humanity to be seen as newcomers, we shouldn't be dominating the Elcor/Volus/Hanaar/Batarians within that span of time. As everyone goes out of their way to remind us: it's only a matter of time before we're awarded Council status. 

But humanity is hardly close to being top dog when compare to the asari, turians and salarians. 

[AlanC9]

I didn't, you can't claim human's that humans are the most genetically diverse sapient species if have no proof to back it up.

That's silly. He has proof. Mordin knows genetics.

[Il Divo]

But humanity is hardly close to being top dog when compare to the asari, turians and salarians. 

 

And note comments regarding how we were/are just about to receive a Council seat as of ME1's intro. Note that by ME1's ending, we either have received a Council seat or (prior to ME2's retcon) have taken over the entire Council altogether, indicating our ascension along side the other Council races. 

 

As before: that's irrelevant. We achieve in decades what other species can't achieve in thousands of years. If you don't think that's demonstrative of a humans  = super special story line, I don't think there's much hope of convincing you. 

[straykat]

And note comments regarding how we were/are just about to receive a Council seat as of ME1's intro. Note that by ME1's ending, we either have received a Council seat or (prior to ME2's retcon) have taken over the entire Council altogether, indicating our ascension along side the other Council races. 

 

As before: that's irrelevant. We achieve in decades what other species can't achieve in thousands of years. If you don't think that's demonstrative of a humans  = super special story line, I don't think there's much hope of convincing you. 

 

And even then, everyone's riding on the back of others. Especially riding on the backs of the Reapers.

 

In the end, this story isn't about progress at all, or humans boldly riding into the future, with innovation and big dreams. It's about the past... haunting everyone, and getting cockblocked. It's the one thing I hate about Bioware. They've got a thing for the past, in all of their games. And once you correct the past, they don't know how to talk about their settings.

[Il Divo]

^I think that might be my favorite summary of the Mass Effect story-line that I've heard.