869 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Good question, but in the same vein why didn't they get the Crucible built? Time + dire straits. What I'm getting at is that anything that can make the Crucible work as a plot device can equally apply to a Prothean (or some other precursor) ship. Maybe they did go to another galaxy and simply decided not to come back, or couldn't come back, or were wiped out somehow. Maybe by the time they discovered it, they didn't have the infrastructure to get it built.

Why the Crucible wasn't built was explained in ME3:  sabotage by indoctrinated members of the team.  Plus it was a moot point, as the Protheans knew the CItadel was the Catalyst, and the CItadel was the first  place hit by the Reapers.

 

Maybe a group did flee the galaxy. Javik did say no one knew what the others were doing since their empire at that time was smashed into pieces. He also said he heard stories of scientists constructing a great machine that could defeat the reapers. That same group may not know about any underground bunkers.

It would certainly be interesting to see a surviving Prothean society.  The Kal Sharok version of the Protheans?  

 

But that would lead to other problems:  Protheans 50,000 years more advanced would likely roflstomp anything we could throw at them.  Plus there's still the whole "WHy didn't the Reapers follow them?

[AlanC9]

Your still underestimating the logistical of such a project. They'll need resources materials etc to support colonies of various different species and their biological needs, this is just going to support the council races only but possibly several dozen species. There's also the fact the ship needs fuel to last for several centuries and power to keep the stasis pods alive and keep the ship running at the same time the more it requires the more space it'll take up. Then there the issue of making sure the crew doesn't get indoctrinated since collectors ships are bound to have reaper tech.

So, your made-up numbers don't agree with Heimdall's made-up numbers?

[Iakus]

I think you're overthinking this. This isn't some totally grounded science fiction story in the same vein as 2001 or something. Power can last as long as the plot needs it to. Again, this has always been true in Mass Effect. The reapers, mass relays, the Citadel, prothean beacons etc. have lasted for tens of thousands of years. Heck, if Shepard derps up and decides to refuse, Liara's capsule will last through to the next cycle just fine. Whatever batteries or micro-reactors these things use, they seem to work for the long haul. 

 

As for Collector ships and indoctrination, it was never quite clear if the Collectors themselves actually have technology that emits the reaper indoctrination signal. You could really just hand wave this to determine that they in fact do not. 

It's not.  But keeping a certian veneer of common sense would sure be nice.

 

As opposed to the usual New Rules as the Plot Demands

[themikefest]

But that would lead to other problems:  Protheans 50,000 years more advanced would likely roflstomp anything we could throw at them.

What reason would we give them to hit us over the head?
 

Plus there's still the whole "WHy didn't the Reapers follow them?

They didn't know a ship left the galaxy just like they didn't know about the crucible until TIM told them

[Heimdall]

Your still underestimating the logistical of such a project. They'll need resources materials etc to support colonies of various different species and their biological needs, this is just going to support the council races only but possibly several dozen species. There's also the fact the ship needs fuel to last for several centuries and power to keep the stasis pods alive and keep the ship running at the same time the more it requires the more space it'll take up. Then there the issue of making sure the crew doesn't get indoctrinated since collectors ships are bound to have reaper tech.

Collector technology has never demonstrated the ability to indoctrinate.  Nobody so much as blinks at the rescued crew members or suspects they might be indoctrinated.  Reapers and devices directly created by the reapers have that capability, but not all technology derived from them does.

 

Speaking of that technology, Mass Relays and the Citadel have power sources capable of running them indefinitely, Reapers too, possibly.  So why not the Collector ship?

[Drone223]

 

I think you're overthinking this. This isn't some totally grounded science fiction story in the same vein as 2001 or something. Power can last as long as the plot needs it to. Again, this has always been true in Mass Effect. The reapers, mass relays, the Citadel, prothean beacons etc. have lasted for tens of thousands of years. Heck, if Shepard derps up and decides to refuse, Liara's capsule will last through to the next cycle just fine. Whatever batteries or micro-reactors these things use, they seem to work for the long haul. 

 

 

This isn't exactly something that can be hastily put together if a few months or years. It'll require a lot of long term planning and preparation for all possible worst case scenarios because their going to be on their own and there'll be no one to help them. The gaxlay who lacks the technology to create power sources that last for centuries non-stop.

 

As for Collector ships and indoctrination, it was never quite clear if the Collectors themselves actually have technology that emits the reaper indoctrination signal. You could really just hand wave this to determine that they in fact do not. 

 

The collectors are known to create reapers so its safe to say they'd have some from of reaper tech on their ships.

[Drone223]

Collector technology has never demonstrated the ability to indoctrinate.  Nobody so much as blinks at the rescued crew members or suspects they might be indoctrinated.  Reapers and devices directly created by the reapers have that capability, but not all technology derived from them does.

 

 

The collectors do have reaper tech since they're known to construct actual reaper's its not far-fetched to say to collectors ships do have reaper tech on them.

 

Speaking of that technology, Mass Relays and the Citadel have power sources capable of running them indefinitely, Reapers too, possibly.  So why not the Collector ship?

 

Those things has been around for billions of years, its extremely unlikely they can run non-stop for that long not to mention the element zero decays eventually so they do need replacing eventually.

[Il Divo]

Why the Crucible wasn't built was explained in ME3:  sabotage by indoctrinated members of the team.  Plus it was a moot point, as the Protheans knew the CItadel was the Catalyst, and the CItadel was the first  place hit by the Reapers.

 

But there it is: sabotage. That works just as easily here.

 

There's a million reasons the writers can invent for why the Ark wasn't built in time: resources, sabotage, the Reapers finding out, time, or even maybe some other race did manage it and simply disappeared altogether or was subsequently demolished.

[Il Divo]

It's not.  But keeping a certian veneer of common sense would sure be nice.

 

As opposed to the usual New Rules as the Plot Demands

 

But again, this argument would more appropriate if Bioware hadn't been doing that since ME1. ​Every story functions like this: rules exist, until the writers decide they don't.

 

Did Bioware (for example) emphasize putting everything we got into the Crucible? Sure, but even in the context of Mass Effect 3, they weren't exactly doing their best to sell that illusion, judging by all the Citadel-related content.

[Killroy]

Iakus, Drone, what are you even arguing here? That the game won't do what we already know its doing? That the game shouldn't be doing what it's doing?
The story isn't going to change and your imaginary figures and selective logic aren't going to sway anyone to your obviously pointless side of this non-debate.

[Heimdall]

The collectors do have reaper tech since they're known to construct actual reaper's its not far-fetched to say to collectors ships do have reaper tech on them.

 

Those things has been around for billions of years, its extremely unlikely they can run non-stop for that long not to mention the element zero decays eventually so they do need replacing eventually.

The Collectors have tech that can build Reapers.  It doesn't follow that that tech must be capable of indoctrination.  Not all technology of reaper origin has that capability, as with the Citadel and the Relays.  Besides, the technology for creating reapers was only present in their base, not their ship.

 

They've never lost power or required replacing element zero in the two thousand years the ME races have been observing them.  That's more than enough.

[KaiserShep]

 

 

This isn't exactly something that can be hastily put together if a few months or years. It'll require a lot of long term planning and preparation for all possible worst case scenarios because their going to be on their own and there'll be no one to help them. The gaxlay who lacks the technology to create power sources that last for centuries non-stop.

 

The collectors are known to create reapers so its safe to say they'd have some from of reaper tech on their ships.

 

 

Of course, reaper tech =/= indoctrination space cooties. The Citadel is such an example. 

[Silvair]

Confirmed last survivors of the milky way after everyone else died after relays rbg'd.

Also I hate Hales voice acting. So monotone and bored sounding

[Iakus]

What reason would we give them to hit us over the head?
 

They didn't know a ship left the galaxy just like they didn't know about the crucible until TIM told them

Because we are primitives, to be "invited" into their glorious empire.

 

And again, shouldn't Reapers be harvesting Andromeda already?

[Heimdall]

Because we are primitives, to be "invited" into their glorious empire.

 

And again, shouldn't Reapers be harvesting Andromeda already?

Because they're dumb and only interested in the domain of their former creators as originally programmed?

[Iakus]

But again, this argument would more appropriate if Bioware hadn't been doing that since ME1. ​Every story functions like this: rules exist, until the writers decide they don't.

 

Did Bioware (for example) emphasize putting everything we got into the Crucible? Sure, but even in the context of Mass Effect 3, they weren't exactly doing their best to sell that illusion, judging by all the Citadel-related content.

 

And you know that has always been an aspect I've hated.  And it has only gotten worse, not better

Of course, reaper tech =/= indoctrination space cooties. The Citadel is such an example. 

Hey, we never did figure out why Udina took stupid pills.  Citadel indoctrination could explain a lot of idiocy 

[Iakus]

Because they're dumb and only interested in the domain of their former creators as originally programmed?

That's not what was programmed

 

"Preserve life at any cost" was their mandate.

[KaiserShep]

 

Hey, we never did figure out why Udina took stupid pills.  Citadel indoctrination could explain a lot of idiocy 

 

Keeper 20 is a crafty sumbitch. 

[Heimdall]

That's not what was programmed

 

"Preserve life at any cost" was their mandate.

We don't know the exact terms of the task set to it, just the broad strokes.  That's all that is.

 

The Catalyst's purpose wasn't to answer an existential question, but to provide a practical solution to solve a problem within its creator's domain.  That makes a lot more sense than the Leviathan ordering it to fix the entire universe.

[Applepie_Svk]

We don't know the exact terms of the task set to it, just the broad strokes.  That's all that is.

 

The Catalyst's purpose wasn't to answer an existential question, but to provide a practical solution to solve a problem within its creator's domain.  That makes a lot more sense than the Leviathan ordering it to fix the entire universe.

 

That´s prolem of thinking, Catalyst assume that AI will always rise against oragnics without chance for peace, and when it happens, AI will win, and then AI will expand more and more. In alway expanding universe it would mean always expanding number of galaxies rulled by AI and that AI would be still evolving, even beyound the capability of Reapers. So in the end run it would mean that sooner or later there might arrive AI stronger than Reapers to kill even them once and for all, and they would fail even in their task to presserve life of Milky Way.

The problem of Catalyst being an AI is quite tricky, because he seems to be quite stupid for AI, he seems to be more like very limited AI, limited so much that it cannot see errors of its logic, because it was basically set to solve problem which is by definition infinite. And on top of it all, Catalyst became part of problem, he and Reapers were one who left a technology for organics, and thru that technology were all species developing in very similliar paths to each other, which led them into creation of synthetics. So maybe if someone wasn´t allowed or was out reach for this kind of technology would make own technology by different paths and methods.

[Heimdall]

That´s the prolem of thinking, Catalyst assume that AI will always rise against oragnics without chance for peace, and when it happens, AI will win, and then AI will expand more and more. In alway expanding universe it would mean always expanding number of galaxies rulled by AI and that AI would be still evolving, even beyound the capability of Reapers. So in the end run it would mean that sooner or later there might arrive AI stronger than Reapers to kill even them once and for all, and they would fail even in their task to presserve life of Milky Way.

The problem of Catalyst being an AI is quite tricky, because he seems to be quite stupid for AI, he seems to be more like very limited AI, limited so much that it cannot see an errors of its logic, because it was basically set to solve problem which is by definition infinite.

The Catalyst never said it concluded AI would always seek to expand.

 

Take the Geth for example, they would have been perfectly happy to build a super structure capable of housing all Geth programs and remaining within it.

[Il Divo]

And you know that has always been an aspect I've hated.  And it has only gotten worse, not better

​

I'd agree to an extent, although I think this also a convincing argument for why conventional victory would have made little sense up through ME3.

 

Much as Mass Effect might have issues with its plot however, I don't see how what you're advocating for is an improvement. If we're going to call out Bioware because we don't have enough resources for a Crucible and an Ark, then we're going to need numbers, and that's not exactly a standard I necessarily want in my story-telling.

[Applepie_Svk]

The Catalyst never said it concluded AI would always seek to expand.

 

Take the Geth for example, they would have been perfectly happy to build a super structure capable of housing all Geth programs and remaining within it.

 

And when they start to reproduce programs, they would require more resources, more energy, more space. While Geths were happy about an idea of them being together, Heretics were different, they were seeking for power, even way to expand by means of rewriting Geths. Not all of AI would just stop expanding, while they may have no meaning for things like being somehow in charge, they could be interested in knowlendge and expansion to keep reactors running.

[Heimdall]

And when they start to reproduce programs, they would require more resources, more energy, more space. While Geths were happy about an idea of them being together, Heretics were different, they were seeking for power, even way to expand by means of rewriting Geths. Not all of AI would just stop expanding, while they may have no meaning for things like being somehow in charge, they could be interested in knowlendge and expansion to keep reactors running.

Geth don't reproduce programs.  That's the thing, AI don't necessarily have that drive for expansion that typifies humanity, nor would they be driven to reproduction.

 

Some AI would, but the the Catalyst based its ideas on what it believes all AI will eventually do.

[Ahglock]

Geth don't reproduce programs.  That's the thing, AI don't necessarily have that drive for expansion that typifies humanity, nor would they be driven to reproduction.

 

Some AI would, but the the Catalyst based its ideas on what it believes all AI will eventually do.

 

Geth clearly do exapnd and reprodice, which is why they like expanded and reproduced more bots for their hive mind.  It may have stalled for some of them after building the dyson sphere, but it may have ended up just being a pause until they decided they needed a new solar system. At which point they would take they most efficiant(ie bloody) path available to them to colonize that system. It would be kind of silly on the organics side to wait and find out.  Crush them to goo when you have the chance.