236 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

They butchered Shepard with the auto-emotions in ME3, but that's an entirely different thing. Having haunted dreams about that little kid and being forced into being an emotional wreck was moronic. Keeping the dog tag of the person whose death you caused is a very different thing. Hell, they could even let you determine what exactly you did to cause Ryder's death(your mistake caused him to die saving you, you allowed him to die to save yourself, or you actively murdered him to advance your career/station in the expedition) and how guilty you feel about it. Throw in Ryder's sibling looking into what happened/eventually finding out and you you've got same tasty drama and character development in a series that is otherwise very straightforward and pedestrian.
Imagine a subplot wherein you murdered Ryder, his sister finds out but you find out that she knows before she gets a chance to tell anyone and you have to choose whether or not to murder her to keep your secret, confess to the crime and potentially end your campaign then and there, or take your chances trying to convince everyone that you're innocent.
Or a scenario wherein you accidentally caused Ryder's death, the sister finds out and holds it over your head to get what she wants(maybe she's xenophobic and wants you to assist in cutting other races out of leadership roles) and the longer you help her the harder it becomes for you to redeem yourself in everyone's eyes, but if you don't help her at all you may never get the chance to redeem yourself, depending on how much influence you have in the Ark.

It adds a new dimension to story and would do a lot to set Mass Effect apart from other games.

Eh, with this I'd have to ask why we can't avoid this "murder" in the first place if we have so many reasons to do it. It just seems a tad cornball to me. I'd rather avoid the hokey character drama built around a disposable character that we have no choice but to kill. The only good reason for our PC to kill another character with no choice is if that character is trying to kill our character. Anything else would be a mutually exclusive thing like the VS, or simply a situation where that character always just gets killed by something else, like Duncan.

I guess it's just a hard sell without more details.

[Killroy]

Eh, with this I'd have to ask why we can't avoid this "murder" in the first place if we have so many reasons to do it. It just seems a tad cornball to me. I'd rather avoid the hokey character drama built around a disposable character that we have no choice but to kill. The only good reason for our PC to kill another character with no choice is if that character is trying to kill our character. Anything else would be a mutually exclusive thing like the VS, or simply a situation where that character always just gets killed by somethjng else, like Duncan.

 

What would be the point of killing Ryder for trying to kill us? There's no real drama. We'll just have killed an enemy.

And I really don't see how any and every scenario where Ryder ends up dead because of our PC would be inherently cornball. That doesn't even make any sense. Is death cornball now? Are serial killers just cornball?

[Han Shot First]

That would be awfully contrived. But again, why only 1 dog tag? You don't discard a dog tag for no reason.

 

People don't always wear their dog tags. I rarely wore mine and they stayed stowed away with the gear I wasn't using. I also had two sets, so even when I wore them there was always a set that wasn't being worn. I once had a pair stolen by a ROK Marine (South Korean Marine) when his unit stayed in our berthing area aboard the ship we had gone to Korea on, while my unit was ashore on a training exercise.

 

I doubt that is where Bioware is going (I think Ryder is the player character rather than N7 Guy), but it wouldn't be contrived or unrealistic if the protagonist happens to have a dog tag belonging to the N7 guy from the teaser. It also isn't certain that everything in the trailer will also be in the game. Assuming for a moment that Ryder is the N7 guy, in game the protagonist may not be carrying around his dog tag, and it may have just been in the teaser as a hint to the game's plot.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They butchered Shepard with the auto-emotions in ME3, but that's an entirely different thing. Having haunted dreams about that little kid and being forced into being an emotional wreck was moronic. Keeping the dog tag of the person whose death you caused is a very different thing. Hell, they could even let you determine what exactly you did to cause Ryder's death(your mistake caused him to die saving you, you allowed him to die to save yourself, or you actively murdered him to advance your career/station in the expedition) and how guilty you feel about it. Throw in Ryder's sibling looking into what happened/eventually finding out and you you've got same tasty drama and character development in a series that is otherwise very straightforward and pedestrian.

Imagine a subplot wherein you murdered Ryder, his sister finds out but you find out that she knows before she gets a chance to tell anyone and you have to choose whether or not to murder her to keep your secret, confess to the crime and potentially end your campaign then and there, or take your chances trying to convince everyone that you're innocent.

Or a scenario wherein you accidentally caused Ryder's death, the sister finds out and holds it over your head to get what she wants(maybe she's xenophobic and wants you to assist in cutting other races out of leadership roles) and the longer you help her the harder it becomes for you to redeem yourself in everyone's eyes, but if you don't help her at all you may never get the chance to redeem yourself, depending on how much influence you have in the Ark.

 

It adds a new dimension to story and would do a lot to set Mass Effect apart from other games.

That sounds absolutely terrible. If the protagonist was a set protagonist but with the player able to influence little things like say Adam Jenson then it couldwork, but not for a game where the protagonist is supposed to be under the control of the player like how Bioware games are.

[Killroy]

That sounds absolutely terrible. If the protagonist was a set protagonist but with the player able to influence little things like say Adam Jenson then it couldwork, but not for a game where the protagonist is supposed to be under the control of the player like how Bioware games are.

 

It's not any different than Shepard. You pick an arbitrary background and "psychological profile" but you fill in the blanks of your character as you go through the choices you make. That's exactly what I'm talking about with this scenario. You make a choice, just like Shepard, and your choice has consequences, just like Shepard's. And you get to choose what kind of person you are by choosing how guilty you feel over Ryder'd death. You choose how he dies and how you feel about it. It's not a set protagonist at all.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's not any different than Shepard. You pick an arbitrary background and "psychological profile" but you fill in the blanks of your character as you go through the choices you make. That's exactly what I'm talking about with this scenario. You make a choice, just like Shepard, and your choice has consequences, just like Shepard's. And you get to choose what kind of person you are by choosing how guilty you feel over Ryder'd death. You choose how he dies and how you feel about it. It's not a set protagonist at all.

There's a big difference between what Mass Effect 1 did and what you are proposing. For starters, what ME1 did was just flavor that rarely came up. There wasn't much if any impact to the story. What you're proposing is making it a driving force in the narrative.

[Han Shot First]

I wouldn't be surprised if the N7 guy turned out to be an antagonist, whether or not he is Ryder. The Johnny Cash song is a Western take on the Wild Hunt legend, and in some versions of legends (including the song version) the riders of the Wild Hunt abduct people to join them. In the first teaser we see the N7 guy uncovering some bit of alien technology on an uncharted world, and is soon after attacked by hostile aliens. In tow were a human female  and a Krogan male, who might line up with Cora and Drack, a biotic and Krogan who are among the player characters' squadmates according to one of the rumored leaks. What if the N7 guy goes missing on that mission but his two squadmates escape, later joining the protagonist?

 

The N7 guy later emerging as an antagonist after a period spent missing in action, would tie in with the Wild Hunt legends. On the other hand it would sort of be a rehash of the indoctrinated villains of the Shepard trilogy, but Bioware isn't exactly known for original storytelling. They usually do tell the same stories...just presented in a slightly different way.

[Killroy]

There's a big difference between what Mass Effect 1 did and what you are proposing. For starters, what ME1 did was just flavor that rarely came up. There wasn't much if any impact to the story. What you're proposing is making it a driving force in the narrative.

 

What I'm proposing is making your choices regarding your character a driving force in the narrative. You would prefer more pointless character choices over impactful ones?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Why would we have one of Ryder's dog tags if he was missing? He would still have both on his neck.

Unless we found the dog tags, but not Ryder.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What I'm proposing is making your choices regarding your character a driving force in the narrative. You would prefer more pointless character choices over impactful ones?

I would prefer more of a blank slate protagonist than one whose backstory, motivation, and mindset are limited as extensively as you propose. Plus this game is supposed to be about exploration, not running away and/or redemption. 

[AresKeith]

I wouldn't be surprised if the N7 guy turned out to be an antagonist, whether or not he is Ryder. The Johnny Cash song is a Western take on the Wild Hunt legend, and in some versions of legends (including the song version) the riders of the Wild Hunt abduct people to join them. In the first teaser we see the N7 guy uncovering some bit of alien technology on an uncharted world, and is soon after attacked by hostile aliens. In tow were a human female  and a Krogan male, who might line up with Cora and Drack, a biotic and Krogan who are among the player characters' squadmates according to one of the rumored leaks. What if the N7 guy goes missing on that mission but his two squadmates escape, later joining the protagonist?

 

The N7 guy later emerging as an antagonist after a period spent missing in action, would tie in with the Wild Hunt legends. On the other hand it would sort of be a rehash of the indoctrinated villains of the Shepard trilogy, but Bioware isn't exactly known for original storytelling. They usually do tell the same stories...just presented in a slightly different way.

 

It would also be interesting if the N7 guy's squad also became antagonists with him

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Dick Ryder. Gigitty.

Dick Ryder meet Mike Hawke.

[Killroy]

I would prefer more of a blank slate protagonist than one whose backstory, motivation, and mindset are limited as extensively as you propose.

You want Dragon Age:Origins, not Mass Effect. Shepard was almost entirely defined by the writers. I'm talking about more choice than you had with Shepard, not less.

Plus this game is supposed to be about exploration, not running away and/or redemption.

Exploration is a gameplay element, not a theme. And it's not even a story. If exploration were the story we would either have very little freedom in what, where and when we explore or we would have almost no narrative structure or plot. You can't have an entire game about exploring and a rich narrative with branching choices and character development.

[KaiserShep]

What would be the point of killing Ryder for trying to kill us? There's no real drama. We'll just have killed an enemy.

And I really don't see how any and every scenario where Ryder ends up dead because of our PC would be inherently cornball. That doesn't even make any sense. Is death cornball now? Are serial killers just cornball?

 

You misunderstand. What I consider cornball is the whole keeping the dog tag because we somehow got that character killed thing, not the death in and of itself. I don't want the character automatically keeping those sorts of crappy mementos around for sake of "personal drama". If Shepard automatically kept something of Ashley or Kaidan's around as a reminder after Virmire, I would've been very annoyed. 

[Ahglock]

You misunderstand. What I consider cornball is the whole keeping the dog tag because we somehow got that character killed thing, not the death in and of itself. I don't want the character automatically keeping those sorts of crappy mementos around for sake of "personal drama". If Shepard automatically kept something of Ashley or Kaidan's around as a reminder after Virmire, I would've been very annoyed.

Let the player toss them in the intro. Problem solved.

[Killroy]

You misunderstand. What I consider cornball is the whole keeping the dog tag because we somehow got that character killed thing, not the death in and of itself. I don't want the character automatically keeping those sorts of crappy mementos around for sake of "personal drama". If Shepard automatically kept something of Ashley or Kaidan's around as a reminder after Virmire, I would've been very annoyed.

It's a common thing. Nothing cornball about it. And considering all the junk Shepard collected from his missions for his cabin it wouldn't be anything new to the series.

[KaiserShep]

Shepard's collectibles are pretty much that. Save for the optional helmet from the Normandy SR-1 crash site and the chess set you automatically get from Omega, everything else is just decoration with no real story behind it. Shepard doesn't sit there playing Petrovsky's chess set wondering why she shot him in the face. 

[In Exile]

What would be the point of killing Ryder for trying to kill us? There's no real drama. We'll just have killed an enemy.

And I really don't see how any and every scenario where Ryder ends up dead because of our PC would be inherently cornball. That doesn't even make any sense. Is death cornball now? Are serial killers just cornball?

 

The problem with all of that is that it's missing a "I don't care option". And lots of people won't care. 

[wolfhowwl]

I wouldn't be surprised if the N7 guy turned out to be an antagonist, whether or not he is Ryder. The Johnny Cash song is a Western take on the Wild Hunt legend, and in some versions of legends (including the song version) the riders of the Wild Hunt abduct people to join them. In the first teaser we see the N7 guy uncovering some bit of alien technology on an uncharted world, and is soon after attacked by hostile aliens. In tow were a human female  and a Krogan male, who might line up with Cora and Drack, a biotic and Krogan who are among the player characters' squadmates according to one of the rumored leaks. What if the N7 guy goes missing on that mission but his two squadmates escape, later joining the protagonist?

 

The N7 guy later emerging as an antagonist after a period spent missing in action, would tie in with the Wild Hunt legends. On the other hand it would sort of be a rehash of the indoctrinated villains of the Shepard trilogy, but Bioware isn't exactly known for original storytelling. They usually do tell the same stories...just presented in a slightly different way.

 

That sounds alright.

[Ahglock]

The problem with all of that is that it's missing a "I don't care option". And lots of people won't care.

A toss the dog tags out the airlock option in the intro.

Though there could be practical reasons to keep them. I'd assume future dog tags come with some electronic data. You might be using it as part of a forged ID to hack a system.

[In Exile]

A toss the dog tags out the airlock option in the intro.

Though there could be practical reasons to keep them. I'd assume future dog tags come with some electronic data. You might be using it as part of a forged ID to hack a system.

 

My point is that picking them up is an option that might not make sense to people. Like, it would never occur to me to ever do it, even if I deeply cared about a person, because I just do not have relationships with physical objects like that (i.e., memento's). 

[Ahglock]

My point is that picking them up is an option that might not make sense to people. Like, it would never occur to me to ever do it, even if I deeply cared about a person, because I just do not have relationships with physical objects like that (i.e., memento's).

Yes but it might be I used it to track an assassin down to see if you have a more wide spread threat against you. Or it just tore off while you killed them and you discard it once you gets chance or it was sent to you in the mail etc. plenty of reasons for anyone to have them.

[Gothfather]

The dog tags may also hint at another military protagonist.

 

I thought it was confirmed that the protagonist was part of the N7 program already. Not the person in the original trailer as that was a place holder, but an N7 graduate none the less. At least that was what i recall.

[Killroy]

The problem with all of that is that it's missing a "I don't care option". And lots of people won't care.

I already said the ability to decide how the act affects you would be vital.

My point is that picking them up is an option that might not make sense to people. Like, it would never occur to me to ever do it, even if I deeply cared about a person, because I just do not have relationships with physical objects like that (i.e., memento's).

Dog tags are collected from the dead. That's why there are 2 of them. One to keep on the body for identification, one to pass along to family. Your complaint is really silly.

[themikefest]

You misunderstand. What I consider cornball is the whole keeping the dog tag because we somehow got that character killed thing, not the death in and of itself. I don't want the character automatically keeping those sorts of crappy mementos around for sake of "personal drama". If Shepard automatically kept something of Ashley or Kaidan's around as a reminder after Virmire, I would've been very annoyed. 

What's your thought about t'soni having Shepard's armor in a glass case on display like its some kind of trophy?