1378 réponses à ce sujet

[ashwind]

Is this just rhetoric, or do you really think that's Bethesda's plan?

 

At this point... I do sincerely believe that Bethesda is doing exactly that.

 

Do you sincerely believe that Bethesda never thought: "Heck why put more time and effort hence increase cost of production by polishing it. Modders will mod it anyways. It is an open world sandbox rpg after all."?

 

I am all for modding toolkit. In NWN, I used it to correct the Aribeth ring bug, then created mods to play with friends. Created Warcraft maps and all. It was all fun. I was still in school then and I have lots of time to do these things. However, Bioware then and Blizzard did not release the toolkit so that we can "fix" their game. The toolkit is for more fun. The product of a solid modding tool on a solid game is Dota.The mod that started an entire genre of games today. 

 

So after the star child drama that is ME3, I want MEA to be a solid game first. Dont care about modding toolkit. Good to have but not a priority.

[Mr.House]

Personally I'm enjoying FO4 far more then Oblivion, FO3 and Skyrim. Skyrim was just complete **** and FO3 was very meh.

[Mr.House]

True but by the time Skyrim has been fully modded 1-2 years later, many would have already moved to other games.

 

It is not only the paraphrasing that is bad, it is the unresponsiveness of the conversations, the lousy NPC keeps moving and playing long slow fugly animation before they would talk to me, block me by repeating the same lame line over and over when I just want to buy something or sell something or just swap items. The whole system is messed up.

 

I am annoyed and find most conversation to be poorly written, juvenile, badly voice acted and atrociously animated. Check out Angryjoe's review where he pitch FO2's conversation against FO4.

 

Can modders save this? Another Skywind perhaps? Rewrite and revoice all the conversations? I am sure they can and if I'd wait for that, I should be buying FO4 in 2020. 

 

Releasing a modding tool for my pleasure is one thing, releasing a modding tool for people to fix your droppings is.... lame     

 

Between a game that has no mod but a studio who strive to create the very best experience and a game that is release for the modders to salvage... I'd pick the former because I no longer have the time to tinker as much as I use to.

Joe gave Skyrim a 10 so yeah I'm taking his review on FO4 with a grain of salt big time.

[ashwind]

Joe gave Skyrim a 10 so yeah I'm taking his review on FO4 with a grain of salt big time.

 

Not asking you to trust his review. Just the section where he compares FO4's conversation/writing vs FO2.

 

As for enjoyment, different people enjoy different games. Things that dont bug you bug the hell out of others. That being said, there are many things that can be objectively quantified. For instance - Effort, Polish, etc. For example: Bioware puts more effort into DAI than DA2 - that is an objective fact.

 

Like Skyrim, Fallout 4 will receive a 10/10 if it were launch back in 2012 unfortunately humanity has improved since. Skyrim, Morrowind, Oblivion, FO2, etc were all great back then.

 

The general consensuses now is that:

Fallout 4 is amazingly addictive and fun. Bethesda is lazy and didnt put enough effort into the game, game is dated, unpolished and has annoying/frustrating mechanics. Just like how CoD launches a similar game every year and yet millions buy and play it. Yeah, mostly the same old game but hey tis fun.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Personally I'm enjoying FO4 far more then Oblivion, FO3 and Skyrim. Skyrim was just complete **** and FO3 was very meh.

 

Did you get Skyrim for the PS3? 

[Seraphim24]

Not asking you to trust his review. Just the section where he compares FO4's conversation/writing vs FO2.

 

As for enjoyment, different people enjoy different games. Things that dont bug you bug the hell out of others. That being said, there are many things that can be objectively quantified. For instance - Effort, Polish, etc. For example: Bioware puts more effort into DAI than DA2 - that is an objective fact.

 

Like Skyrim, Fallout 4 will receive a 10/10 if it were launch back in 2012 unfortunately humanity has improved since. Skyrim, Morrowind, Oblivion, FO2, etc were all great back then.

 

The general consensuses now is that:

Fallout 4 is amazingly addictive and fun. Bethesda is lazy and didnt put enough effort into the game, game is dated, unpolished and has annoying/frustrating mechanics. Just like how CoD launches a similar game every year and yet millions buy and play it. Yeah, mostly the same old game but hey tis fun.

 

Still haven't really decided if I'm even going to get it, I need to not know 80% of the lines while they're being said in the trailer. It would probably be somewhat amusing but the odds of it surpassing TW3 or something like that are just microscopic.

[Mr.House]

Not asking you to trust his review. Just the section where he compares FO4's conversation/writing vs FO2.

 

As for enjoyment, different people enjoy different games. Things that dont bug you bug the hell out of others. That being said, there are many things that can be objectively quantified. For instance - Effort, Polish, etc. For example: Bioware puts more effort into DAI than DA2 - that is an objective fact.

 

Like Skyrim, Fallout 4 will receive a 10/10 if it were launch back in 2012 unfortunately humanity has improved since. Skyrim, Morrowind, Oblivion, FO2, etc were all great back then.

 

The general consensuses now is that:

Fallout 4 is amazingly addictive and fun. Bethesda is lazy and didnt put enough effort into the game, game is dated, unpolished and has annoying/frustrating mechanics. Just like how CoD launches a similar game every year and yet millions buy and play it. Yeah, mostly the same old game but hey tis fun.

Silver Shroud quest, nuff said and again what does he compare? Did he compare the best snark options? How Taylor delivered her lines? Valentines lines? The chats with the director of the Institute? Tinker Toms dialog? Maxsons entire speech? The list goes on and on of dialog in FO4 that is good and can compete with FO1,2 and NV. Yeah it's in a pool of crap dialog but when you compare it to their past games? It's a goldmine.

 

It sounds like the same crap when people say the game has no choices and use Concord as their argument when it's bogus. Yeah FO4 has massive issues in those areas you said. So did FO3 and Skyrim yet those where praised to hell by the media and Joe.

[Mr.House]

Still haven't really decided if I'm even going to get it, I need to not know 80% of the lines while they're being said in the trailer. It would probably be somewhat amusing but the odds of it surpassing TW3 or something like that are just microscopic.

That is just setting you up for disappointment. I went in with no hype, not even expecting much and what I got was mostly a surprise from Bethesda. Not the only one that did that and they enjoyed it too.

[Zekka]

Let's assume for a moment that critic ratings are any more useful as a metric than user score is (which I don't believe, but I'll play along for the sake of this argument).

 

The game you're loudly (and repeatedly) proclaiming as "Bethesda's lowest-rated game" has the following scores on Metacritic:

• PC: 85
• Xbox One: 88
• PS4: 87

These scores lead me to believe that, overall, critics pretty much like the game, while acknowledging that it has flaws.

 

So tell me, even if those are truly the lowest scores Bethesda has ever had (which I haven't verified because it doesn't f***ing matter), who really cares when they're still that high?

Because companies usually shoot for the 90 range with the big budget games like these.

 

That 85 score is damning especially when you know that Obsidian did not receive a bonus for New Vegas just because they got a meta score of 84 instead of 85. 

[LinksOcarina]

At this point... I do sincerely believe that Bethesda is doing exactly that.

 

Do you sincerely believe that Bethesda never thought: "Heck why put more time and effort hence increase cost of production by polishing it. Modders will mod it anyways. It is an open world sandbox rpg after all."?

 

I am all for modding toolkit. In NWN, I used it to correct the Aribeth ring bug, then created mods to play with friends. Created Warcraft maps and all. It was all fun. I was still in school then and I have lots of time to do these things. However, Bioware then and Blizzard did not release the toolkit so that we can "fix" their game. The toolkit is for more fun. The product of a solid modding tool on a solid game is Dota.The mod that started an entire genre of games today. 

 

So after the star child drama that is ME3, I want MEA to be a solid game first. Dont care about modding toolkit. Good to have but not a priority.

 

People were going to mod it anyway...but thats the kind of **** most PC players go for now a days anyway. Hell, Skyrim is  a good game because of the modding, not because of what it had in it.

[LinksOcarina]

Silver Shroud quest, nuff said and again what does he compare? Did he compare the best snark options? How Taylor delivered her lines? Valentines lines? The chats with the director of the Institute? Tinker Toms dialog? Maxsons entire speech? The list goes on and on of dialog in FO4 that is good and can compete with FO1,2 and NV. Yeah it's in a pool of crap dialog but when you compare it to their past games? It's a goldmine.

 

It sounds like the same crap when people say the game has no choices and use Concord as their argument when it's bogus. Yeah FO4 has massive issues in those areas you said. So did FO3 and Skyrim yet those where praised to hell by the media and Joe.

 

I give Bethesda credit, some of their characters and in-game moments are on BioWare level of being complex and layered. When you have to probe not-Thane's mind for example...it was actually quite good and made me actually forgive what I did after what I saw.

 

But just because a couple of the characters and companions have finally reached the heights of what Bethesda is obviously trying to emulate...we get stupid **** that ruins it in the long-run.

[Sylvius the Mad]

To me, imagination is not about bounded constraints. It's about the absence of constraints. Imagination, to me, is enjoyable because you go beyond the role of a particular bounded person and into the role of, essentially, author. It is more than just interpreting how a character sees things - it's more even than how many characters see things. It's about fundamentally controlling the world itself, and what it is in its truest sense. 

 

The second you say to me, you cannot control anything but this one figure, and the world itself is static and beyond your control, then the very thing that makes imagination worthwhile is gone. Because it's no longer a free exercise. I only have the freedom to do what the world permits. And what the world permits in a CRPG is very narrow. 

Remember Schrödinger's Lore.  The world doesn't need to be static.  The world doesn't need to be beyond your control.  The only part that is beyond your control is the part you cannot explain away.

 

NPCs can be very different with each playthrough.  Past experiences (for your character and others) can be very different with each playthrough.

 

It's not a wholly free exercise, but what is?  A pure thought experiment is, if you're good at them (though many people unknowingly place constraints on theirs - I found this very frustrating when I worked as a philosophy tutor).  But tabletop roleplaying certainly isn't.  There you have a bunch of other players to worry about, and you usually didn't design the world all by yourself.  For this reason, I would argue that roleplaying in a CRPG is often more of a free exercise of imagination than tabletop gameplay is.

[ashwind]

People were going to mod it anyway...but thats the kind of **** most PC players go for now a days anyway. Hell, Skyrim is  a good game because of the modding, not because of what it had in it.

 

I am not arguing that 

 

As a matter of fact - I am saying that.

 

Silver Shroud quest, nuff said and again what does he compare? Did he compare the best snark options? How Taylor delivered her lines? Valentines lines? The chats with the director of the Institute? Tinker Toms dialog? Maxsons entire speech? The list goes on and on of dialog in FO4 that is good and can compete with FO1,2 and NV. Yeah it's in a pool of crap dialog but when you compare it to their past games? It's a goldmine.

 

It sounds like the same crap when people say the game has no choices and use Concord as their argument when it's bogus. Yeah FO4 has massive issues in those areas you said. So did FO3 and Skyrim yet those where praised to hell by the media and Joe.

 

I rest my case 

 

I have said: Another time, another standard. If Fallout 4 is release in 2012 - it will be a 10/10 master piece. Skyrim released in 2015 - it will receive the same criticism as Fallout 4.

[Mr.House]

I am not arguing that 

 

As a matter of fact - I am saying that.

 

 

I rest my case 

 

I have said: Another time, another standard. If Fallout 4 is release in 2012 - it will be a 10/10 master piece. Skyrim released in 2015 - it will receive the same criticism as Fallout 4.

Skyrim was not even a good standard when it came out considering that was the same year TW2 came out (which ironically we are in the same place  again with TW3 which like TW2 sets the bar higher and Bethesda who just improves on their own products flawed work a little bit along with taking Project Nevada ideas and making them better with a shitty dialog system) and Skyrim WAS heavily criticized, just not by the mainstream media.

[ashwind]

Skyrim was not even a good standard when it came out considering that was the same year TW2 came out, and Skyrim WAS heavily criticized, just not by the media.

 

 If you mean criticized mostly by those pesky old TES fans who cant get over Morrowind and/or Oblivion for its streamlined mechanics.   <--- Guilty as charged.

 

As for TW2, it simply couldnt match TES at that time both in terms of fame, scale and wow-factor. One is a linear game, the other openworld sandbox. The former always has the advantage. Since 2000, open world sandbox games like GTA/Fallout/TES has mostly dominated the media and awards.

 

To be fair, I know a lot of friends who never played other TES game picking up Skyrim and loving it. I had my complains then about Skyrim just like I have for FO4 now -BUT- I know I would probably end up sinking 500+ hours into it - more I think because I like shooting things.... 

[rashie]

Did you get Skyrim for the PS3? 

Played it on PC, and still thought the base game was kinda bland.

 

It turns into something truly great with a combination of frostfall and requiem though, the former makes the cold actually hurt from a gameplay perspective unless prepared properly, and the later turns it into a far more enjoyable rpg experience, for me at least. It delevels the entire world, making it possible to run into things that will eat you alive unless prepared and at a proper level for it, gives exploring the world an actual sense of danger.

 

Suppose its kinda counter-productive to the whole " go anywhere, when you want" design but I prefer my rpg games to have some bite in this manner.

 

But that's what having mod tools does, allows people to tune their experience to a much greater extent.

[Gago]

I would say use new engine but BW has already covered that. 

[ashwind]

Still haven't really decided if I'm even going to get it, I need to not know 80% of the lines while they're being said in the trailer. It would probably be somewhat amusing but the odds of it surpassing TW3 or something like that are just microscopic.

 

Surpassing as in? Although to me TW3 is no doubt the superior game, FO4 has its charm as well. I mostly dont follow the quest or story line, running around the wasteland doing my own things and it is a lot of fun to be honest.

 

Encounter with enemies/monsters is fun. Blowing them up, taking off limbs, punching their head out... all fun. Encounter with NPC... not so much, Companions can be stupid and deadly in tight spots. Since I stay away from the former and the game is mostly fun.

 

Is that the experience you want? An open world sandbox RPG where you pick a direction and just go without worrying about the story? A lighter experience that will not hit you like a train when you realize you made a horrible decision 10-20 hours ago and leaves a bad taste in your mouth? A game that is all about you and not the world and the NPCs? Do you like shooters? Do you enjoy Borderlands? If yes, Fallout 4 is for you. You will enjoy it.

 

It is not the same as TW3. Dont expect it to be, they are totally different. Also, a game that is technically superior and critically acclaim is not necessarily fun for everyone. 

 

Avengers vs Titanic - which is a better movie? I believe most will say Titanic. However, Avengers is fun as hell to watch. That I think is how I would compare TW3 to FO4

[ioannisdenton]

This gets tiring. I wonder if in bethesda official forums exists a thread titled "what bethesda can learn from bioware".
In my book bioware can only learn from CdPr not bethesda.

[Queen Skadi]

It sounds like the same crap when people say the game has no choices and use Concord as their argument when it's bogus. Yeah FO4 has massive issues in those areas you said. So did FO3 and Skyrim yet those where praised to hell by the media and Joe.

 

I will let you in on a little secret, the popularity of a video game reviewer depends not on how fair and honest their reviews are but whether or not they tell their fanbase what they want to hear, when it comes to a game like Skyrim with a large amount hype surrounding there is usually a large very vocal group of gamers who have already made up their mind on the game long before it comes out and are ready to lynch anyone who does not share their opinion, even the most benign criticism no matter how fair or justified is enough to trigger rage and a slew vitriolic comments and death threats (perhaps not so much now but when it was released), if Joe gave Skyrim anything less than a 9 then he would have no doubt lost a LOT of subscribers and he knows it, same goes for a lot of other reviewers as well.

 

In the end Joe is a slave to public opinion and his popularity is based on him telling his fanbase what they want to hear based on their pre-conceived notions all while pretending it is his own opinion and considering how public opinion on Bethesda games is not quite what it used to be it is no surprise he scored it lower.

[ioannisdenton]

I will let you in on a little secret, the popularity of a video game reviewer depends not on how fair and honest their reviews are but whether or not they tell their fanbase what they want to hear, when it comes to a game like Skyrim with a large amount hype surrounding there is usually a large very vocal group of gamers who have already made up their mind on the game long before it comes out and are ready to lynch anyone who does not share their opinion, even the most benign criticism no matter how fair or justified is enough to trigger rage and a slew vitriolic comments and death threats (perhaps not so much now but when it was released), if Joe gave Skyrim anything less than a 9 then he would have no doubt lost a LOT of subscribers and he knows it, same goes for a lot of other reviewers as well.

 

In the end Joe is a slave to public opinion and his popularity is based on him telling his fanbase what they want to hear based on their pre-conceived notions all while pretending it is his own opinion and considering how public opinion on Bethesda games is not quite what it used to be it is no surprise he scored it lower.

while i do not think of Joe anything more than a reviewer, he did give halo a not high score. Your argument is invalid about him. 

[Queen Skadi]

while i do not think of Joe anything more than a reviewer, he did give halo a not high score. Your argument is invalid about him. 

 

Because everyone is going on about just how great Halo 5 is? Come now, between the microtransactions, the requisitions and the lack of split screen multiplayer all I am seeing is hate, his fans wanted him to tear the game apart and lo and behold Joe tears it apart, so how exactly does the Halo 5 review invalidate my observation?

 

Couple all this with the fact that Halo fanaticism started dying out after ODST with each new game in the series and the fact that it is an Xbox One exlcusive (which lets face it is not the most popular console) it is not surprising he gave it a bad review. While I am sure there are probably still those out there who will defend the series to the death and think the game is great it is definitely not the general consensus.

[Heimdall]

I don't really follow the logic that a review agreeing with public opinion means the reviewer merely follows public opinion. It's almost like Joe has the same standards as the average gamer(For better or worse) shocking.

[Queen Skadi]

I don't really follow the logic that a review agreeing with public opinion means the reviewer merely follows public opinion.

 

That is because the fact that his reviews mirror public opinion is not what the observation is based on. If you want to think Angry Joe is your buddy who would never lie to you and is only looking out for your best interests then I am not going to stop you, I just find the whole thing amusing.

[LinksOcarina]

That is because the fact that his reviews mirror public opinion is not what the observation is based on. If you want to think Angry Joe is your buddy who would never lie to you and is only looking out for your best interests then I am not going to stop you, I just find the whole thing amusing.

 

To Joe's credit, he does actually care about his fans.

 

The problem is hes still a bad critic.