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Anyone excited to see what Bioware and ME:A can learn from Fallout 4?


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#826
Hazegurl

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The companions have personalities of their own. That they remain with the Inquisitor is more of a gameplay compromise than a realistic one. They're not just random recruits you pick up for them to be disposable. I don't think it would be logical for them to leave unless absolutely provoked either. They're saving themselves by saving the world. 

 

In any case, you're fully capable of ignoring the whims of your companions. That they continue to romance you despite you picking despicable choices (to them) is both a gameplay mechanic as well as a reasonable choice of their own. I don't think any of the choices have such enormous untenable consequences on any of the relationships.

 

You actually have the option of making companions take double the negative disapproval hits if you desire. That makes it monumentally more difficult to maintain a relationship with someone that has ideals that run counter to yours. Is that not what you are asking for?

 

No really. I put that option on and lost like two companions after the first major decision. It was hilarious.

I don't mind them having their own personalities or them hating me. But I really would have actually liked to have played the IQ they all hated.  I felt the writers just couldn't come up with a decent reason for the companions to hate you enough to want to leave, turn to booze et al so they just made anything up about your behavior even while never giving the player the chance to actually roleplay such a person.  The only companion whose disapproval/romance dumping dialogue seems to match the IQ actually written by BW is Sera surprisingly.  I just think her opinions are dumb.

 

I would argue that most of them are most certainly disposable pick up companions, though. Every optional companion is and  Varric's role is to just get you in contact with Hawke.  Cass and Solas are the only true cemented members along with the advisers. But I'm not talking about whether or not I get to kick them out.  I'm talking about how FO4 and DAI's companion approval system aren't all that different from each other and both could use some work.  But DAI was better.

 

IMO, I think both companies should tweak the companion approval system. Bethesda way more than BW though.


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#827
Lebanese Dude

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IMO, I think both companies should tweak the companion approval system. Bethesda way more than BW though.

 

Fair enough.

 

Although I think the major difference between the two is that DAI's companions react to decisions when they are outside the party. That's significant enough as it is.

 

FO4's are mostly incremental and are determined by HOW you play, rather than why.


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#828
NasChoka

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The crafting was fun in FO4 maybe they can take some ideas.

Apart from that I would like if they look at the sales of skyrim, FO4 and TW3 and decide to add mod-support and skip multiplayer.

#829
Dean_the_Young

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ZombiePopper said that (at least I thought) but clarified their position.

 

So people was person, and not even that. Got it.
 

 

Yet Piper dislikes it when you commit an illegal act. As someone who is an investigative journalist in a city where the mayor wants nothing more than shut her paper down, that seems a bit silly to me.

 

 

Whether it seems silly to you is irrelevant to whether it's a part of her character. Anti-authoritarians, by their nature, tend to flout or defy conventional authorities and rules- even, especially, when the authorities dislike them and would tolerate adherance.

 

This seems just a tad like people who deem a character a hypocrite for not adhering to the player's straw-manned insistence of what their beliefs are.

 

 

That companions approve of player actions is fine. Dragon Age does that too, when you find Vivienne's books or Blackwall's Warden relics. The difference is, those are things they asked you to do. Finding these items is important for them, so it stands to reason that they would like the player more because of it. I'm even down for Strong liking you more and more as you kill things with him in tow, since as a Super Mutant he enjoys little else.

 

 

 

What's also different is that these are about the only points where world actions actually affect approval. Dragon Age is a series in which approval is overwhelmingly tied into the roleplaying of the dialogue system rather that character actions: companion's characters are overwhelmingly controlled by what you say, not what you do between conversations.

 

Fallout is a fundamentally different sort of RPG, where most of the role-playing is intended to be in the non-conversation sphere.

 

 

But I find it really silly that Cait starts talking about all the good I did for her when I haven't even spoken to her since leaving the Combat Zone with her in tow. Piper speaks of me helping people and how she likes that in my character, but I barely did that at all and simply picked locks in her presence until her approval hit the desired spot. I don't think that is an exploit, it's how the system is designed to work and happens naturally as the game flows unless you intentionally refuse to pick locks so as not to gain approval.

 

Picking locks isn't the exploit we were referring to- torturing Dogmeat was the one you were hyping. Cait approving of lock picking is tied to her character.

 

We can certainly agree that it was a bit silly if lockpicking was all you did... but then, I suspect we'd also agree that the Mass Effect romance system was pretty silly as well since it was tied to the typical 'three conversations and a flag' system regardless of what else you did. One is the flaw of an approval-gate system if you exploit any single approval-garnering action- the other is a flaw of a system devoid of approval.
 

 

 

Dragon Age had something similar with gifts in Origins, and the devs rightfully decided this system had to go and toned it down. I think companions liking the player for mundane actions is not good both story and gameplay wise, unless that action is explicitely important for them. ''I like picking locks and you pick locks'' isn't really a great reason to have the approval bar soar if you ask me.

 

 

 

Did I?

 

(Alright, that was a bit mean.)

 

But- going back- Dragon Age is able to go away from gifts because it's extremely dialogue heavy and that's where the companion approval was in the first place- even as a limitation has always been how easy it was to lose approval opportunities for the gameplay benchmarks if you didn't take everyone everywhere. DAO relied on gifts to supplement because approval was only a good thing and the only way to get the friendship bonuses. DA2 tried to compensate by allowing Rivalry so that having a negative relationship wasn't 'bad' but suffered the unsatisfying middle. DAI changed it's approach by letting Big Decisions and Judgements affect non-party members.

 

Thing is- this is still all about party witnessing dialogue, in games built around dialogue roleplaying, in games where a expected party of three companions brings multiple witnesses to every conversation of note.

 

Fallout isn't that style of roleplaying game. It never has been. This isn't a matter of 'Fallout 4 took away my dialogues'- this is a matter that you can complete a good deal of the settlement content of any modern fallout game without even meeting, let alone recruiting, all the companions. Whether because they're tied into core story quest in a series infamous for letting the player ignore it (Fawkes, Nick), their recruitment is tied to a high-level area (the ghoul companion of FNV), or there's a recruitment quest and extensive investments required to recruit them (Cassidy for anyone not putting points into barter), it's very easy to recruit companions late in the game, after the low-hanging dialogue fruits have been passed. And even then, you're only bringing one of them with you at a time.

 

If Fallout- any Fallout- tried to tie Bioware-style dialogue approval, it'd be pretty poor. Bioware establishes an early recruitment of pretty much all companions relatively early in the games, and paces the dialogue content throughout. Open world games like Fallout, do not.

 

Which means, if dialogue alone isn't going to be enough, you either supplement dialogue approval with non-dialogue actions you can reliably access throuought the game- which, in turn, means you can simply grind those non-dialogue actions as necessary- or you simply abandon approval at all, and go for a flag system (in which case characters are notoriously unresponsible to the sort of actions you do do if it's not in a specific set of negative flags).

 

 

 

The Mythal thing was probably Sera's last straw, the first straw was the IQ being Dalish.  I don't know much about Sera's romance but it seems the only one who gets dumped is the Elf IQ.

 

 

Since you clearly don't know much about Sera's romance, might I suggest you study it a bit? All Inquisitiors are culturally different from Sera. Being different is not the issue, since all Inquisitor-Sera romances deal with that.

 

There are plenty of valid criticisms to be made of Sera, but demanding homogeny and the same opinion on everything isn't one of them.


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#830
KaiserShep

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Are those lyrium deposits even interactable without having the quest from Varric? I know that at least some of the companion mission targets don't spawn in until you get the quest.

And sitting in judgement is a public act; everyone's going to know about it.

They are. I asked Varric about Red Lyrium, automatically activating the quest, and the deposits can be destroyed whether or not he's there. The approval gains are just less as a result. 



#831
Hazegurl

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Since you clearly don't know much about Sera's romance, might I suggest you study it a bit? All Inquisitiors are culturally different from Sera. Being different is not the issue, since all Inquisitor-Sera romances deal with that.

 

There are plenty of valid criticisms to be made of Sera, but demanding homogeny and the same opinion on everything isn't one of them.

Read the part where I emphasized the Dalish IQ over the others.



#832
Just Here For Popcorns

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What can BW truly learn from FO4 or Bethesda in general?

Leave everything to modders to do lol


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#833
ObserverStatus

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Obviously, the biggest thing BioWare needs to be emulating is surgical tray hoarding. That's what made Fallout 4 the runaway success that it is. in Mass Effect 4, I need the option to hoard surgical trays, tv dinner trays, and other sources of aluminum to have fun.



#834
Lady Artifice

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Obviously, the biggest thing BioWare needs to be emulating is surgical tray hoarding. That's what made Fallout 4 the runaway success that it is. in Mass Effect 4, I need the option to hoard surgical trays, tv dinner trays, and other sources of aluminum to have fun.

 

There's that. Aluminum and copper are both almost as important as caps if you care about building up your settlement much at all.



#835
SlottsMachine

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I've got 97 dinner trays but I need some good old duct tape, trade?



#836
Master Warder Z_

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And I am reminded of why I didn't buy this game and have no plan to until I can purchase it for under twenty dollars or less.



#837
ObserverStatus

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I've got 97 dinner trays but I need some good old duct tape, trade?

No you don't, just build a radio beacon and get more people to work on your vegetable starch plantation.


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#838
Lady Artifice

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I've got 97 dinner trays but I need some good old duct tape, trade?

 

Sure. Thanks to cutting fluid and vegetable starch I've got plenty of adhesive.  


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#839
SlottsMachine

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Are you accusing me of lying about my aluminium stock piles? Well I never!

 

[Edit] I gotcha now.



#840
Master Warder Z_

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No you don't, just build a radio beacon and get more people to work on your vegetable starch plantation.

 

Wait, seriously you are growing starches...but there is no option to distill it and make alcohol?

 

The hell is wrong with the PC.



#841
ObserverStatus

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Wait, seriously you are growing starches...but there is no option to distill it and make alcohol?

 

The hell is wrong with the PC.

At one point, the PC can acquire a robot that is also a walking nanobrewery, does that count?



#842
Lady Artifice

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And I am reminded of why I didn't buy this game and have no plan to until I can purchase it for under twenty dollars or less.

 

I spent about a half an hour yesterday trying to build bridges between shacks at one of my settlements. It was like I couldn't stop. This is Hearthfire all over again.


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#843
Ahglock

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Wait, seriously you are growing starches...but there is no option to distill it and make alcohol?

The hell is wrong with the PC.


Maybe it can be done on the chemistry table. (Mod)

I didn't know about this starch thing. I guess I need to plant some different stuff. Does it auto fill into storage or do you need to pick it and store as junk/break it down.

#844
ObserverStatus

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Maybe it can be done on the chemistry table. (Mod)

I didn't know about this starch thing. I guess I need to plant some different stuff. Does it auto fill into storage or do you need to pick it and store as junk/break it down.

From what I understand, it autofills into storage. Just build some water pumps, tatos, corn, and mutfruit plants, make some people work on the plants, leave the town alone for a little while, and before long you should have some starch making materials. I'm not actually sure whether the produce is moved into storage like the water seems to, or if the storage is just accessing the inventories of the plants though. The workshop seems to only have access to produce grown in the same settlement as it.


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#845
Lady Artifice

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Maybe it can be done on the chemistry table. (Mod)

I didn't know about this starch thing. I guess I need to plant some different stuff. Does it auto fill into storage or do you need to pick it and store as junk/break it down.

 

You need nut fruit and corn, lots and lots of nut fruit and corn, plus purified water and tatos. The recipe is in the cooking station. So, if you have enough of this stuff, and enough settlers harvesting it, it will just turn up in your workshop inventory. Make sure you go around picking it yourself now and then.

 

Then just make as much starch as you can, and put that back into your workshop. Adhesive will (probably) never be a problem again.

 

Edit: ObserverStatus beat me to it.


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#846
Lady Artifice

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From what I understand, it autofills into storage. Just build some water pumps, tatos, corn, and mutfruit plants, make some people work on the plants, leave the town alone for a little while, and before long you should have some starch making materials. I'm not actually sure whether the produce is moved into storage like the water seems to, or if the storage is just accessing the inventories of the plants though. The workshop seems to only have access to produce grown in the same settlement as it.

 

I think it accounts for how much your settlers consume and then gives you the extra, because it only turns up with the things I'm growing a lot of.



#847
Ahglock

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Thanks. I need to increase my food I guess. I'm barely making enough for the settlement.

#848
Dean_the_Young

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There's that. Aluminum and copper are both almost as important as caps if you care about building up your settlement much at all.

 

Aluminium is crazy, but I found that the scavenge perk (which lets you break down equipment) will give you copper for pipe rifles.

 

Considering how those are, like, everywhere, I went from copper being my eternal shortage to other things.


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#849
Master Warder Z_

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I spent about a half an hour yesterday trying to build bridges between shacks at one of my settlements. It was like I couldn't stop. This is Hearthfire all over again.


Which is something I had very limited interest in via Skyrim. I don't think a scenary change will improve that.

#850
Master Warder Z_

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At one point, the PC can acquire a robot that is also a walking nanobrewery, does that count?


No because I don't consider beer a proper stand in for fresh gut rot.