1378 réponses à ce sujet

[Gotholhorakh]

BioWare learning from Bethesda; Now there's a sign of the times.

[SentinelMacDeath]

Yeah, I ultimately sided with the BoS as well. It felt wrong to involve the Minutemen for me. They are basically just civilians who are trying to protect their homes and you drag them into your conflicts.

My biggest problem with the BoS wasn`t even their position on Ghouls and certainly not their position on synths. It was that they're bringing children into a war zone. Well, young Maxson learned that right from his mentor Sarah Lyons.

 

Where do you think the kids they take in come from? I wonder if they take in orphans. I can't see them stealing babies from loving families. Maybe they'd take the "results" of fraternization but if they take in orphans? There are worse fates for orphans in the FO universe than being a squire in the Brotherhood Maybe some join on their own free will like in the olden days. Drummer boys and girls aplenty.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, I ultimately sided with the BoS as well. It felt wrong to involve the Minutemen for me. They are basically just civilians who are trying to protect their homes and you drag them into your conflicts.

My biggest problem with the BoS wasn`t even their position on Ghouls and certainly not their position on synths. It was that they're bringing children into a war zone. Well, young Maxson learned that right from his mentor Sarah Lyons.

I don't like that they killed Sarah Lyons off, especially offscreen.

[Lady Artifice]

The ferals, which they wipe out, or the sentients, which they don't like but ignore?

 

There's plenty of reason to hate ferals- starting with that they're basically mindless zombies that will attack anyone. Feral ghouls are a public menace to everyone.

 

There's less reason to for their prejudice against non-ferals- but at the same time, there's less action. It's a perfectly legitimate worry for the future, but the Brotherhood hasn't exactly done anything to non-feral ghoul communities that we can point to.

 

 

 

Sure, racism is bad, but it's hard to argue against results- as a faction, the Brotherhood does the most good for everyone in the Commonwealth, including the sentient ghouls. They're the only major faction that's proactively fighting the public menaces- purging the super mutants, feral ghouls, and even knocking out raiders. These are the real threats to the Commonwealth, and the BoS is the only one actively seeking them out.

 

The Minutemen are nice, but ultimately defensive and reactionary rather than proactive. The Institute is pretty amoral and self-interested, and has only really helped the Commonwealth by accident while defending their own interests. The Railroad doesn't really care about anyone but Synths, and the ensure the end of the Synth race by blowing up the means of their creation anyways.

 

If you want to remove the greatest dangers from the most people in the shortest amount of time, the Brotherhood is where you're at. Anyone else is pretty much counting acceptable casualties in hopes things are nicer or better in the future. (Which is fine, but let's not make false-equivalences.)

 

I don't deny that they're efficient and useful. I'm perfectly happy to cooperate with them in game, to a point. What I'm repelled by is their narrow philosophy, and what I consider to be misplaced idealism. Almost everything about the brotherhood mindset rubs me the wrong way. I walk by someone on the Prydwen, and they inform me that they're concerned that Scribe Neriah is too attached to her test subjects. There's something ominous about that kind of suspicion. The brotherhood fears anything that deviates from the norm (their norm) including ways of thought. 

 

The fact that they're actively combating most of the threats to the ordinary people of the nuclear wasteland is a good thing, but considering that they're only helping those people coincidentally--while they focus on pursuing technology--it doesn't actually do much to endear them to me. 

 

When I imagine the Minutemen growing in strength and numbers, enough to become a major power in the commonwealth, I mostly imagine them doing more to help people. I know they aren't perfect, but at their core, they are benign and genuinely altruistic. 

 

If instead, I imagine the Brotherhood gaining enough power to take over, I picture something quite a lot different.  

 

That's all based on my feelings though, and that same old genre paranoia. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't deny that they're efficient and useful. I'm perfectly happy to cooperate with them in game, to a point. What I'm repelled by is their narrow philosophy, and what I consider to be misplaced idealism. Almost everything about the brotherhood mindset rubs me the wrong way. I walk by someone on the Prydwen, and they inform me that they're concerned that Scribe Neriah is too attached to her test subjects. There's something ominous about that kind of suspicion. The brotherhood fears anything that deviates from the norm (their norm) including ways of thought. 

 

The fact that they're actively combating most of the threats to the ordinary people of the nuclear wasteland is a good thing, but considering that they're only helping those people coincidentally--while they focus on pursuing technology--it doesn't actually do much to endear them to me. 

 

When I imagine the Minutemen growing in strength and numbers, enough to become a major power in the commonwealth, I mostly imagine them doing more to help people. I know they aren't perfect, but at their core, they are benign and genuinely altruistic. 

 

If instead, I imagine the Brotherhood gaining enough power to take over, I picture something quite a lot different.  

 

That's all based on my feelings though, and that same old genre paranoia. 

I think you're misunderstanding some things about them, Lady. There's plenty of reasons to dislike and distrust the Brotherhood, but these... aren't them.

 

When they say they're concerned that Scribe Neriah is too attached to her test subjects... her test subjects are mole rats. Which are shitting and stinking up the entire air ship.
 

The Brotherhood's actions aren't all about technology either. The purges of supermutants and ferals is something they view as a public service, not just a means to grab tech (hence why 'tech retrieval' and 'purge' missions are separate radiant quests). They also proactively patrol, engage raiders on sight, and even provide airpatrols for caravans that support them.

 

Citing an imaginary future Minutemen is letting perfect be the enemy of the good- not least because the Minutemen aren't perfect, or even genuinely altruistic at their core. They're self-interested, and have a history (current and otherwise) of infighting, distraction, and other issues. In living memory, the Minutemen not only collapsed- many of them turned into outright raiders. The Minutemen aren't a government in waiting. Not only is there no indication that anyone else wants them to be, there's no indication that they want to rule the Commonwealth.

 

 

 

 

 

When you say that the Brotherhood isn't endearing itself to you... so what? What does rubbing you the wrong way have to do whether they're actually helping the Commonwealth? Do the mutants, raiders, and feral  ghouls become less deadly if a broader minded group only organizes a response some time after there are already raids? Does narrowmindedness somehow mean that they aren't doing good things?

 

Rejecting help from imperfect sources doesn't mean you'll get it from ideal people- it just means you're not getting the help. Which in this case means a lot more innocents, humans and ghouls, being murdered, raped, and/or devoured by some of the worst evil in the Wasteland.

 

Because the knights in shining power armor weren't quite benevolent and altruistic enough for you. But hopefully, in a few decades, some one else who may be better may want to help out of the goodness of their hearts and nothing else. Everyone who dies in the meantime?

 

Eh. At least you won't be rubbed the wrong way- right?

[Lady Artifice]

I think you're misunderstanding some things about them, Lady. There's plenty of reasons to dislike and distrust the Brotherhood, but these... aren't them.

 

When they say they're concerned that Scribe Neriah is too attached to her test subjects... her test subjects are mole rats. Which are shitting and stinking up the entire air ship.
 

The Brotherhood's actions aren't all about technology either. The purges of supermutants and ferals is something they view as a public service, not just a means to grab tech (hence why 'tech retrieval' and 'purge' missions are separate radiant quests). They also proactively patrol, engage raiders on sight, and even provide airpatrols for caravans that support them.

 

Citing an imaginary future Minutemen is letting perfect be the enemy of the good- not least because the Minutemen aren't perfect, or even genuinely altruistic at their core. They're self-interested, and have a history (current and otherwise) of infighting, distraction, and other issues. In living memory, the Minutemen not only collapsed- many of them turned into outright raiders. The Minutemen aren't a government in waiting. Not only is there no indication that anyone else wants them to be, there's no indication that they want to rule the Commonwealth.

 

When you say that the Brotherhood isn't endearing itself to you... so what? What does rubbing you the wrong way have to do whether they're actually helping the Commonwealth? Do the mutants, raiders, and feral  ghouls become less deadly if a broader minded group only organizes a response some time after there are already raids? Does narrowmindedness somehow mean that they aren't doing good things?

 

Rejecting help from imperfect sources doesn't mean you'll get it from ideal people- it just means you're not getting the help. Which in this case means a lot more innocents, humans and ghouls, being murdered, raped, and/or devoured by some of the worst evil in the Wasteland.

 

Because the knights in shining power armor weren't quite benevolent and altruistic enough for you. But hopefully, in a few decades, some one else who may be better may want to help out of the goodness of their hearts and nothing else. Everyone who dies in the meantime?

 

Eh. At least you won't be rubbed the wrong way- right?

 

But Dean, I wasn't initially making any claim about the overall worthiness of the Brotherhood, or whether they're an effective source of help for the commonwealth. I was just stating why I dislike them:

 

 

 

 

I have a problem with their position on synths, but I have a bigger problem with their position on ghouls. The former at least makes sense to me, the latter just strikes me as prejudice for the sake of it.

 

 

I'm not using it as a reason to reject them, just a reason for why I'm less enthusiastic about joining them. 

 

As for the Minutemen, I wasn't suggesting they ought to rule the commonwealth. I was suggesting that of the two organizations, the Brotherhood is the more likely to try seizing that kind of power, if they were presented with the opportunity. I could be wrong of course, but I appreciate the central ideology of the Minutemen, vague as it might be. I don't know of any other organization in the Fallout universe whose core motivation is protecting people. 

[Steelcan]

The Brotherhood sold me a gatling laser, they're aces in my book

[SentinelMacDeath]

BoS has an Airship, nothing's better than an Airship. 

[SardaukarElite]

BoS has an Airship, nothing's better than an Airship. 

 

Yeah but it doesn't even have parasite fighters. Parasite fighters make an airship. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BoS has an Airship, nothing's better than an Airship. 

"We have one advantage that they sorely lack: Zepplins!"

[Han Shot First]

BioWare learning from Bethesda; Now there's a sign of the times.

 

After DA:I I would like Bioware to unlearn what it learned from Bethesda.

[Laughing_Man]

After DA:I I would like Bioware to unlearn what it learned from Bethesda.

 

I would argue that they learned the wrong things.

 

Bethesda games have a certain charm, at least for me, Bioware failed to integrate that charm.

 

Instead of copying fetch quests, they should have given us more freedom with skills and character development.

(instead of gutting the skill system even more, and artificially splitting every five skills into a school or a specialization)

 

Bethesda games are about the freedom to do whatever you want, in whichever order you wish to. Whatever DA:I was about, it was not that.

[Lady Artifice]

After DA:I I would like Bioware to unlearn what it learned from Bethesda.

 

 

Seriously. 

 

I'm enjoying Fallout 4, but I don't want Bioware taking anything away from it. 

[SardaukarElite]

After DA:I I would like Bioware to unlearn what it learned from Bethesda.

 

I'd suggest they borrowed a lot more from Ubisoft, or at least that was what the end result was closer to. Sticking closer to Bethesda might have yielded better results. 

[SentinelMacDeath]

The Prydwen is such a beauty

 

 

BoS for life! 

[In Exile]

I'd suggest they borrowed a lot more from Ubisoft, or at least that was what the end result was closer to. Sticking closer to Bethesda might have yielded better results. 

That's what TW3 did, and people trip over themselves praising it. Bioware just sucks at designing a lot of gameplay, because they don't really get it, and don't spend enough time trying to figure out how to perfect their own style in novel ways. Ever since KoTOR they've basically just recycled the same game design, with an ever increasing focus on cinematic presentation and interaction. And ever since they hit diminishing returns to scale on that one, they've been at a loss as to what to do gameplay wise, because they've always sucked at gameplay. 

[Cyonan]

That's what TW3 did, and people trip over themselves praising it. Bioware just sucks at designing a lot of gameplay, because they don't really get it, and don't spend enough time trying to figure out how to perfect their own style in novel ways. Ever since KoTOR they've basically just recycled the same game design, with an ever increasing focus on cinematic presentation and interaction. And ever since they hit diminishing returns to scale on that one, they've been at a loss as to what to do gameplay wise, because they've always sucked at gameplay. 

 

Bethesda has been recycling the same game since before KotoR and people still praise them for it.

 

The problem with DA:I is that BioWare failed to fill their game world with interesting things to do, which TW3 pulled it off rather well. A single side quest in that game has more story to it than half the side activities in Inquisition.

[Han Shot First]

Seriously. 

 

I'm enjoying Fallout 4, but I don't want Bioware taking anything away from it. 

 

It is so different that I can't really see any of it meshing well with a Mass Effect game either. 

 

Except for Dogmeat. German Shepherds are awesome and should be in every game. On that note I'm kind of sad we didn't have one in the Shepard trilogy.

 

Wrex: Shepard.

 

Shepard: Wrex,

 

Wrex: Shepherd.

 

Shepherd: Woof.

[SardaukarElite]

That's what TW3 did, and people trip over themselves praising it. 

 

You mean that TW3 stayed closer to Bethesda's approach than Ubi's?

 

(I haven't played it.) 

[Cyonan]

You mean that TW3 stayed closer to Bethesda's approach than Ubi's?

 

(I haven't played it.) 

 

I would argue that TW3 did open world better than Bethesda, because their games don't really have a ton of terribly interesting side quests anymore. They mostly just have exploration going for them at this point, and modding if you're on PC.

[BraveVesperia]

Seriously. 

 

I'm enjoying Fallout 4, but I don't want Bioware taking anything away from it. 

Yep, if anything I'd like Bethesda to be learning from Bioware. I really love the companion aspect of the game, having approval conversations etc. And although I think Bioware's paraphrasing on the dialogue wheel can be hit-and-miss, it was definitely better than the vague options in FO4.

[RatThing]

Where do you think the kids they take in come from? I wonder if they take in orphans. I can't see them stealing babies from loving families. Maybe they'd take the "results" of fraternization but if they take in orphans? There are worse fates for orphans in the FO universe than being a squire in the Brotherhood Maybe some join on their own free will like in the olden days. Drummer boys and girls aplenty.

 

A lot of speculation, isn't it? The game never specifies to my knowledge. Since the kids already absorbed the BoS ideals that much I'd say they're just children of other Brotherhood members. Or at least they've been with the BoS for a long time already. They are certainly not Commonwealth kids, they've been brought here.

 

I don't like that they killed Sarah Lyons off, especially offscreen.

 

Sarah Lyons just didn't fit into the more ambiguous role the BoS have this time around. Many people would assume as elder she would continue Owyn Lyons policy, just because she was his daughter and because she was a popular character. (I'm not so sure about that btw.) . So if she were elder and would follow Maxsons policy instead, I guess much more people would complain.

[Valdez_ua]

You mean that TW3 stayed closer to Bethesda's approach than Ubi's?

 

(I haven't played it.) 

TW3 is far away from both bethesda's and ubi's approach. They are closer to classical bioware's approach, just on the larger scale.

[Helios969]

I would argue that TW3 did open world better than Bethesda, because their games don't really have a ton of terribly interesting side quests anymore. They mostly just have exploration going for them at this point, and modding if you're on PC.

I totally agree, further, I've been thinking for awhile now that CDPR out Bioware'd Bioware on the cinematic storytelling front.  I don't know if it was intentional on CDPR's part, but they took the best aspect of both and improved each to make one hell of a game.  I'm very excited to see what they can do with Cyberpunk.

[agonis]

I totally agree, further, I've been thinking for awhile now that CDPR out Bioware'd Bioware on the cinematic storytelling front.  I don't know if it was intentional on CDPR's part, but they took the best aspect of both and improved each to make one hell of a game.  I'm very excited to see what they can do with Cyberpunk.

 

I don´t care for cyberpunk at all, but after what they did with Witcher III and with the possibility to create my own character... Hell, count me in!