40 réponses à ce sujet

[Illegitimus]

The right time to attack, in this context, is when all the darkspawn had committed. He can know that there are more pouring into the field (which there were when the signal went up,) but can't necessarily know that there aren't more unless told by someone from a higher elevation who has less issue with tree cover.

 

There might have been margin for error if there had been fewer darkspawn to deal with. If the beacon had gone off too early with a lot fewer darkspawn, Loghain might have been able to cope whether or not he failed to realize what was happening and got flanked. As it was, he didn't even have an opening to charge into.

 

And...what gives you that idea?  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And...what gives you that idea?  

The fact that Loghain wants to charge when all the darkspawn are distracted by trying to punch through Cailan's men is common sense. Most of the benefit of flanking is that the enemy's attention is elsewhere. The fact that that wouldn't have been what happened if he'd charged when the signal went off (since there were still darkspawn pouring in which could quickly have adapted to the fight being slightly closer to them but still in front) is something anyone who watches the scene can see from the darkspawn that are still pouring into the valley as he retreated. If there is an unjustified assumption in my post, it's most likely that Loghain could have coped if he'd messed that up with fewer darkspawn than there were. Or did you mean some other bit?

 

Edit: If you meant the bit where Loghain can see bits of the field, there's trees blocking his vision, but that wouldn't be enough to completely obscure his view: realistic forests aren't so thick they completely block vision. He can almost certainly make out bits of the still charging darkspawn column. Not least because they seem to be carrying torches or otherwise creating light judging by the way the column is represented in cutscenes. It's seeing the end of the column that would be better done from directly behind the battlefield and above the tree cover, such as on the bridge or at the top floor of the Tower of Ishal.

[Illegitimus]

No, I'm just asking what gives you the idea that there was no opening to charge into.  

[Lord Morne]

See my problem is categorizing him as 'Evil' as nothing he does is out of cruelty or the desire to make others suffer. He truly and more to the point "Desperately" wants to protect his country, Now did he make some completely nonseasonable decisions yes. For example in the Cousland origin at Ostagar King Cailan had told Loghain about Arl Howe's betrayal and treachery. I just wish that there was something in the game that justified that horrendous decision. As to the question at hand I would put Loghain at Lawful Neutral but falls into the more Order side of things then anything else.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, I'm just asking what gives you the idea that there was no opening to charge into.  

The fact that we fairly well see the darkspawn as an unbroken stream charging straight into the valley. I suppose we don't see enough to know that there was literally no opening (though it's probably what we're meant to conclude) but I think we see enough to know that even had Loghain seen an opening, and used it to get behind the darkspawn that were already in the valley, the darkspawn behind that opening would have still flanked Loghain.

 

 

See my problem is categorizing him as 'Evil' as nothing he does is out of cruelty or the desire to make others suffer. He truly and more to the point "Desperately" wants to protect his country, Now did he make some completely nonseasonable decisions yes. For example in the Cousland origin at Ostagar King Cailan had told Loghain about Arl Howe's betrayal and treachery. I just wish that there was something in the game that justified that horrendous decision. As to the question at hand I would put Loghain at Lawful Neutral but falls into the more Order side of things then anything else.

Whether or not this justifies Loghain is up for debate, but his rationale was probably that the Bannorn had just risen and there were darkspawn in the south and he really does seem to have believed that Orlais was actually going to invade and he couldn't afford to make an enemy of the Arl of Amaranthine and de facto Teryn of Highever. Loghain was legitimately facing two enemies at once, and to all appearances he thought he was facing three. Not wanting another does make a bit of sense.

[ModernAcademic]

Horizontally aligned. In the Warden's bed or six feet under.
Depends on the customer's preference.

[Illegitimus]

The fact that we fairly well see the darkspawn as an unbroken stream charging straight into the valley. I suppose we don't see enough to know that there was literally no opening (though it's probably what we're meant to conclude) but I think we see enough to know that even had Loghain seen an opening, and used it to get behind the darkspawn that were already in the valley, the darkspawn behind that opening would have still flanked Loghain.

=

 

Does it make a difference either way?  Loghain couldn't see the Darkspawn from where he was and if he couldn't attack from the rear it wasn't because the signal had come too late but because it had come too soon.  Either that or the plan was one that could never have worked, and he still couldn't see them to know that.  

[Monica21]

Does it make a difference either way?  Loghain couldn't see the Darkspawn from where he was and if he couldn't attack from the rear it wasn't because the signal had come too late but because it had come too soon.  Either that or the plan was one that could never have worked, and he still couldn't see them to know that.  

 

I'm not sure what I'm responding to, but the signals were supposed to go something like this: signal from the field to the Tower, signal from the Tower to Loghain's forces. Loghain's view of the valley was obscured. My guess is that he might have been able to see the field of battle but wasn't in a position to see the darkspawn entering the valley. That leaves us to only assume that the signal from the field would come when the darkspawn forces were fully committed. There was also an issue of timing of course. There had to be an estimate of darkspawn forces and how long it would take them to enter the valley, but judging by what you see when you cross the bridge, the estimates are likely pretty far off. My guess about timing comes from Alistair saying, "We've probably missed the signal by now" when you're at the top of the tower.

 

So, it could have worked, it was just an unnecessarily convoluted plan, which I blame on Bioware for not knowing how to write effective battle sequences. (See ME for additional examples of this.) And I judge this on the poor attempt to make it look too much like Helm's Deep. The Ferelden soldiers have the benefit of walls and towers, yet the meet the entire force on the valley floor. And then they fire a single volley of arrows, and then release the hounds, and then charge. It makes a nice theatrical scene, but a bad battle plan, and one I don't think even the least experienced of soldiers would ever make.

[Illegitimus]

I'm not sure what I'm responding to, but the signals were supposed to go something like this: signal from the field to the Tower, signal from the Tower to Loghain's forces. Loghain's view of the valley was obscured. My guess is that he might have been able to see the field of battle but wasn't in a position to see the darkspawn entering the valley. That leaves us to only assume that the signal from the field would come when the darkspawn forces were fully committed. There was also an issue of timing of course. There had to be an estimate of darkspawn forces and how long it would take them to enter the valley, but judging by what you see when you cross the bridge, the estimates are likely pretty far off. My guess about timing comes from Alistair saying, "We've probably missed the signal by now" when you're at the top of the tower.

 

So, it could have worked, it was just an unnecessarily convoluted plan, which I blame on Bioware for not knowing how to write effective battle sequences. (See ME for additional examples of this.) And I judge this on the poor attempt to make it look too much like Helm's Deep. The Ferelden soldiers have the benefit of walls and towers, yet the meet the entire force on the valley floor. And then they fire a single volley of arrows, and then release the hounds, and then charge. It makes a nice theatrical scene, but an bad battle plan, and one I don't think even the least experienced of soldiers would ever make.

 

I figured the single volley of arrows was just time compression.  More actually happened but people only have so much time to watch cut-scenes.  

[Willowhugger]

I find if you have a person who has ruthless qualities but noble ones, you should, SHOCK put them on the Neutral Spectrum.

Loghain is Neutral.

He's capable of great evil when pressed but only in the service of what he considers a dire necessity.

He also does great good and tries to do good things as well.

[Illegitimus]

I find if you have a person who has ruthless qualities but noble ones, you should, SHOCK put them on the Neutral Spectrum.

Loghain is Neutral.

He's capable of great evil when pressed but only in the service of what he considers a dire necessity.

He also does great good and tries to do good things as well.

 

Nah.  Strahd has noble qualities.  But he's still an evil vampire.  Of course when it comes to picking alignment you have bear in mind that it can change over time.  Loghain was LN earlier.  And if you redeem him he reverts to LN.  But when he was hiring assassins, selling people into slavery, conspiring to kill prominent nobles, abandoning his king and y'know, just not killing Howe, he'd fallen off the path.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nah.  Strahd has noble qualities.  But he's still an evil vampire.  Of course when it comes to picking alignment you have bear in mind that it can change over time.  Loghain was LN earlier.  And if you redeem him he reverts to LN.  But when he was hiring assassins, selling people into slavery, conspiring to kill prominent nobles, abandoning his king and y'know, just not killing Howe, he'd fallen off the path.  

Well, again: your argument for abandoning Cailan being evil seems to be rooted in the assumption that Loghain either couldn't see any of what was going on and knew nothing except for when the signal goes off (in which case I suppose I agree he should have charged when it went off,) or could see everything he needed to in order to charge. (In which case I think we can agree there was no purpose to the beacon and Loghain should have charged when necessary.) As I'd previously noted, that doesn't sound like a safe assumption to me. There's a whole lot of tree cover, and if he wasn't some distance away from the fight the darkspawn probably would have noticed him, so fine detail seems like it would logically be lost. On the other hand the darkspawn horde was either conjuring giant flaming balls of light to march with them or just carrying torches, so that there is a super-long darkspawn column with (so far as we the players have any reason to believe) no breaks in it is something he could reasonably have gathered. The sort of forest that we see around Ostagar doesn't seem like it would prevent him from seeing that there is such a column: as I recall it seems to be trees spaced far enough apart to allow men to march through them a-dozen-abreast. He might well be unable to pick out a good time to charge without being unable to recognize a bad one, which would absolutely justify the beacon being used. And if Loghain really does need the signal to pick a right time to charge, and the signal is a large inextinguishable bonfire being lit, he knows that he can't pick a right time to charge now.

 

To build off of that, one major benefit of such a signal is that whoever gives it (Alistair, whoever he's watching for, or both) can watch for darkspawn stragglers that can flank Loghain's flankers. If Loghain is using the beacon for that, and when it goes off Loghain can see that there are still darkspawn pouring into the valley, then Loghain knows that he's not going to get a properly timed signal and has reason to fear he will get flanked if he charges into a seeming-opening without one.

 

Note that this isn't me denying the rest of your rationale for Loghain going Evil. The stuff after Ostagar gets progressively harder and harder to justify. (Well, depending on what order you do what in, anyway: I usually do the Circle first, in which Loghain's main failing was the error in judgement in which he trusted Uldred not to bork things for him. Though I think we agree there since you didn't list the Circle.)

[Willowhugger]

Nah.  Strahd has noble qualities.  But he's still an evil vampire.  Of course when it comes to picking alignment you have bear in mind that it can change over time.  Loghain was LN earlier.  And if you redeem him he reverts to LN.  But when he was hiring assassins, selling people into slavery, conspiring to kill prominent nobles, abandoning his king and y'know, just not killing Howe, he'd fallen off the path.

I think Loghain's choices make a great deal of sense from a practical standpoint. It's just they all failed miserably because he's an awful politician and leader.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Neutral Evil. If he is recruited into the Wardens, he becomes True Neutral.

[Seraphim24]

Hm... not sure..

 

Morrigan/Alistair by comparision are like true neutral and chaotic neutral perhaps, Zevran would be like Lawful evil.

 

Zevran by comparison, for instance, is an assassin, but he adheres to very specific rules in that line...

 

Yeah... don't know..

[Catilina]

GOOD? Loghain? Not. Ok, i supposed, he just want to save his army, so many good ppl. But do not forget: then start to kill and to persecute anyone who disagreed.

It's not a nice thing to do.

 

The only thing that was really generous of him: that he sent Zevran to warden...

 

He just caotic... paranoid.